Squad Leader Archive

Throughout Beta, threads like this were used to inform and lobby to the Developers for changes in the game. Star Wars Galaxies is still very much in development, and will be for a long time. Because of this, it is important that Squad Leaders and aficionados of all other aspects of the game lobby for changes, professionally and patiently. That is the purpose of this thread.

This is a revised copy of a thread compiled throughout Beta. It reflects the opinions of a number of other people. It is the intention of this thread to be the one-stop-shopping location for Developers curious about the status, issues, and suggestions for the Squad Leader profession.

Fundamentals
Squad Leaders Should

• Be a profession that compliments the play-style of players who enjoy leading combat groups


• Make groups with a Squad Leader much more effective


• Gain XP from performing Squad Leader activities


• Have specials that make sense for both the profession and the game setting

Squad Leaders Should Not

• Be able to control what other players do


• Have skills that *all* group leaders should have


• Have "magic"


• Have skills that anyone with a macro can reproduce

Status
At this time, a Master Squad Leader can do the following:

• Grant passive Group Terrain Negotiation Bonus


• Grant passive Group Burst Run Efficiency Bonus


• Grant passive Ranged Damage Mitigation Bonus


• Grant passive Melee Damage Mitigation Bonus


• Use /sysgroup to send system messages to the group


• Use /rally to increase the chance to hit for a minute or so, at mind/action pool cost


• Use /formup to cure dizzy/stun affects on the group, at mind/action pool cost


• Use /boostmorale to balance the group's wounds between all members, at great mind/action pool cost


• Use /volleyfire to put all group members into combat mode with the selected target, with a ~4 second delay to use, and a ~3 second delay to activate, at mind/action pool cost


• Use /retreat, bestow Burst Run Mode on all group members, at mind/action pool cost


• Use /steadyaim, effect unknown/ambiguous, supposedly makes everyone /aim for one round, at mind/action pool cost

Issues
The following are outstanding problems with Squad Leaders that is inconsistent with what a Squad Leader should/should not be, or inconsistent with basic game mechanics:

• All specials fail very often (20% to 50% of the time), taking large mind/action pool drains per failure


• All specials use a vast amount of mind/action pools


• All specials have long use, re-use, and activation times


• Squad Leader XP is granted based solely on damage done on a mob by the SL (generally twice the Weapon XP value)


• Passive bonuses promote Squad Leader bots (unplayed, just put on /follow of real group leader, used for bonuses), or Squad Leaders who are not very good players being equally effective


• /sysgroup messages are not particularly noticable in battle spam situations


• /sysgroup messages are nearly worthless to well-played, disciplined hunting groups


• /boostmorale is pure "magic", makes the Squad Leader a doctor, and is not useful in groups doing frequent camping to reduce wounds


• /boostmorale is easy to use to grief players or exploit game systems, imagine using a Novice Entertainer title on a Squad Leader to start a band, have lots of dancers/musicians join, then when your PvP friends die and have lots of wounds, invite them to the band, /boostmorale, and shrug off all those wounds onto the band.


• /steadyaim does nothing noticeable


• /volleyfire takes too long to activate, and does not seem to actually do what the description says (the delay is so large, its hard to tell what its doing)


• /formup is useless unless dizzy/stun are noticeably bad effects. This skill also seems like "magic"
  Using %TT target identification strings do not work with /sysgroup


• Group members cannot harvest, dance, play music, craft, etc. while /rally is in effect, and they cannot turn it off


• Squad leaders must be a group leader to get any XP. More than one Squad Leader in a group is ineffective, making finding groups both essential, and hard to do (once there are more SLs). The risk/reward for this profession is thus unbalanced.

In summation A Squad Leader, at this time, uses a /rally occasionally on tough fights (but not often because of large pool cost/failure rate), and a /sysgroup if the group doesn't know what its doing. The Squad Leader focuses on doing damage, so he can get XP points. Thats it. The passive bonuses are contributed, but are not something the Squad Leader actually does. The Squad Leader has very few tools that actually help him "lead." The other skills are not used because they are either useless, or unnoticable. Using /rally, /sysgroup and a few defense bonuses are not sufficient reason to Master a hybrid class.

Suggestions
The following are some of many possible ways the Squad Leader profession could be improved. It could be vastly imbalancing to implement all of these. This is simply a list of possibilities to choose solutions from:

• Decrease special's fail rate


• Decrease special's pool cost


• Decrease special's use, re-use, and activation times


• Make %TT work in /sysgroup


• Allow bold or colored test to make /sysgroup messages more noticable


• Either increase stun/dizzy effects or remove /formup


• Make /volleyfire actually perform as described in-game


• Remove/change /boostmorale for the above reasons


• Make /steadyaim do something, last far longer, or remove it


• Add passive XP bonus for the group (makes sense realistically, can learn more with a good SL)


• Add passive special's-pool-cost decrease for the group (makes sense realistically, can be more efficient with a good SL)


• Gain Squad Leader XP from doing Specials/SL-things, not from doing damage. Perhaps an equation that takes into account time-to-kill, group damage-taken, or XP gained by the whole group.


• Add passive ability to reduce aggro range for the group


• Add ability to gain improved radar with more tactical information available


• Add passive bonuses to resists to knockdowns, stuns, and dizzy for the group


• Allow people to /harvest, dance/playmusic, craft, etc. while Rally is in effect, or allow players to "click it off"


• Add /targethealth, /targetaction, /targetmind specials that allows the group to hit the specified pool more often for the targetted mob, with high enough mind/action pool cost that it is only to be used on the rare mobs with one pool particularly low. (makes sense realistically, the group can focus on one weakpoint better with a good SL)


• Add /determination, a new special that gives +defense bonus for a few minutes, for high-damage-taking battles (makes sense, a group can toughen up for a battle with a good SL)


• Add /inspiration, a new special that gives +damage bonus for a few minutes, for battles vs. mobs with high HP/armor (makes sense, a good SL can inspire a bloodlust/focus into his group)


• Add /sacrifice, a new special that uses a SL's action and mind pools to replenish the pools of the group (reduce Action and Mind to 1 point each) (makes sense, a SL's selfless act can cause a renewed sense of strength in the group)


• Add /groupmaskscent, a group version of /maskscent. This could be granted at the top of Mobile Command, as SL's are already Explorers. (makes sense, he is an Explorer (Exploration IV), and has Mobile Command IV)


• Add /hurryup, a new special that increases the group's attack speed for a few minutes (makes sense, a Squad Leader could impart a sense of urgency and haste on a group)


• Add /charisma, a no-pool-cost, 30-minute-between-reuse special that increases healing rates in camps for a few minutes (makes sense, a charismatic leader makes you feel better, relax easier)


• Add /confidence, a new special that makes mob more susceptible to fear/warning/threaten attacks (makes sense, a good SL can make his group stand up straight, confident and seem very powerful and impressive, making mobs less willing to attack you, for fear of death)


• Add /concentration, a new special that makes the group less susceptible to stun/dizzy effects (makes sense, a good SL can keep the group


• Possibly remove Group Terrain Negotiation and Group Burst Run Efficiency and give these to Rangers to make room for these other specials. Rangers are in need of work as well, and this makes sense logically: rangers are masters of the terrain and masters of moving quickly. Current SLs will not like this, because it is one of the only skills they have at the moment, but if these other ideas replace them, everyone will be much happier.

Poor Suggestions
Skills that force all group members into formations/postures/targets/retreating, etc. These allow the SL to directly control other players, and is not only un-fun to play from both sides, but is also easy to exploit for easy AFK XP. Additionally, Squad Leader should not be given the abilities all group leaders should have, like establish loot/harvest order, camp rights, etc.

In summation A Squad Leader, with these suggestions, will spend battles choosing which specials to use to give a tactical advantage, whether it be a long-drawn out fight, or a frenzy damage-fest. He can choose to target a specific pool, increase the group's total damage, total defense, attack speed, etc. In every battle of significance, he will have sufficient time/pools to use one or more of the specials. He will not focus on doing damage to get XP. The squad leader makes groups more effective, with a good balance of requiring a good *player* behind the character, to have a truly great SL. Finally, groups with Squad Leaders will be more effective than those without them.

Conclusion
At this time, Squad Leader is not a worthwhile profession, and it is evident by the few numbers of them we saw in Beta. Because of this, few players have played the profession, and thus, few players speak out about the profession. This was especially evident on the old Beta board's Hybrid Professions Forum, where Smuggler/Bounty Hunter posts are 40 to 1 of Squad Leader posts. In beta, it was very much the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and Squad Leaders have not been squeaky enough at all. And thus fewer players have played the profession, continuing the cycle.

Squad Leader is an important, essential part of Star Wars Galaxies, and needs to be balanced as such. These additions are not developer-intensive, and mostly involve changing values, re-using existing code, and some simple balancing.

Remember, Squad Leaders absolutely the only class in the game that cannot solo to Master given sufficient time, and this additional challenge must be met with equal reward.

Thank for you time, and any comments on these ideas are very welcome!!

- Vol
Once And Future Squad Leader
Naritus Server

____________________________________
Vol: [Squad Leader, Carbineer]
Leader of The Naritus Beatdown Squad: Naritus spawns it, we beat it down.
Dedicated to hunting the most difficult creatures with the best players and most sophisticated tactics.

For all of you who played SL in Beta ...

Were other players generally excited about forming a group with you? Or do the benefits involved in having a Squad Leader in the group need some fine tuning?

What professions compliment the SL? I was thinking of maybe becoming a Ranger a TKA or a Carabiner, but I have yet to make up my mind.

Thanks in advance.

-Tiakh
Aspiring Squad Leader

Tiakh:

I found that players were indeed anxious to group with an actual SL... but only because they had not done it before, or because it just sounded cool. After a few hunting expeditions, most of them realized that there were very few tangible benefits to the Squad Leader. While there may infact have been bonuses being applied, no one notices them (this is the fundamental problem with SL at the moment).

I had a good number of returning group members because of my willingness to lead confidently, fairly, and effectively.

Ranger would becomplimentary to SL since it is a good support role. I think Combat Medic or similar could be very complimentary as well (and it shares a prerequisite). TKA may have you too deep in combat to effectively step back, assess the situation, and assist with crowd control. The skill points would be tight, but a Squad Leader/Commando might be neat too!

- Vol

Impressive! Most Impressive!

Great post Vol, I should say posts. I was thinking of becoming a SL but never had the time to reach it during beta.

Great information in all of these post, and i hope the Devs take some of your ideas into consideration.

Even with the state you describe SL's to be at the moment, I will give it a shot.

Thanks for the great information, and keep up the great work

Danovan

I agree with most of the things Vol has mentioned. The bonuses aren't bad.. but to fill up an entire Master profession, it really needs some better special abilities or modifications to existing ones.The cost of some of those abilities use too much of the pool definately. And some of them don't even seem noticiably effective at all. There should at least be a better bonus at reaching the Master level. Master should give you a special ability or two, that is very effective, and makes you stand out as a master squad leader. Or at leasthigher bonuses at master.

- Z

After this last patch we're really screwed now. XP so far in final release, has been aweful when grouped.. and now they said they just lowered it more... gee THANKS ALOT! Let's make people not want to group anymore, and squad leader then becomes remotely effective for only PVP.

Myself and a few friends last night were killing stuff that was con'ingblue to yellowto the group, and it was pretty tough for us, and we got pretty much junky xp, and now it's lowered even more. We got better xp killing the same targets ungrouped.... thats a real great incentive for grouping and having a squad leader... good job there dev's.

- Z

Excellent suggestions, Volatris. That list contains several features that outweigh the current implementation of Squad Leader by a long shot.

I disagree about not having formations. I think the SL should be able to have the players form up, with their consent. It's difficult to coordinate people and explain exactly where to go, etc, so formations are not practical in most online games. Allowing the SL to set them (simple yes/no dialog box) would be a cool ability, especially if they actually gave bonuses.

I don't agree with your agrument that certain abilities should be removed because they sound like "magic." Not having abilities that seem like "magic" is your definition of what a squad leader should be, but is by no means an objective absolute. My suggestion would be that if you do not believe such abilities fit your character, choose not to use them, and let the rest of us decide for ourselves whether or not those abilities fit our image of a squad leader. I don't want to see anything taken away on this particular class -- I only want to see fixes and additions.

Sel

One other thing: it seems like the original poster had a rather arbitrary opinion of what constitutes magic. On the one hand, balancing out the stats across the squad is "magic", yet he suggests /sacrifice which has a very similar "magic" nature.

Personally I don't feel that any of this is magic. Boost Morale simulates the group sharing in the difficulties and working together to survive (instead of just getting angry or depressed). For example, if someone has a leg wound (low action), someone else will help carry them, thus increasing that character's action, while decreasing theirs. Obviously this isn't happening "really", due to limitations of the game, but that's what it's simulating in my opinion.

Yeah it seems like grouping at all right now is completely useless. Squad Leader class can be used to turn this completely around and make grouping totally worthwhile. Devs would be killing 2 birds with one stone by improving SL's.

My major problem with squad leader is that the bonus's only apply when in a group. It doesnt make sense to me why a squad leader cannot have these bonus's by himself, in essentially a one man group. So here is a suggestion: perhaps a lot of the bonus's could be dependant on group size (more people in group = higher bonus's), this makes sense because if there are more people in a group, there are more people to help each other. This will also encourage larger grouping (but at the same time make competition between squad leaders more intense). This would also cause squad leaders to be more in-demand, and encourage larger groups to hunt more powerful creatures than they normally would at that group size. Needless to say, PVP would be a lot more group intensive, rather than a bunch of solos collaberating.

---I doubt Squad Leader was ever intended to be the high profile class that Bounty Hunter is. If nothing else, the Squad Leader class requires fewer skills to acquire, promoting it as a "secondary profession." In many ways this is a double-edged sword. While it allows for a much-needed variety of skills for Squad Leaders (SL/Pistoleer, SL/Medic, etc), it also means that Squad Leader will never have as many bones thrown to it.

---I have been disappointed in the class since I first got into beta and looked at what the class actually had at it's disposal. Recently, while those who actually played the class asked for major reduction in costs for actually using their skills, Verant responded by boosting two passive attributes (damage mitigation). Thanks and all, but that's not what was wanted. As noted above, all it does is promote a class that requires (and asks for) no actual player interaction or skill.

---All of this is compounded by a completely different issue: the overall player tendancy to solo. I continue to assert that this is a problem caused by an incessantly buggy beta. The group chats (or any other chat for that matter) almost never worked. The servers were never reliable enough to bother trying to meet people to group. There are virtually no specified locales for hunting (only added in the last days of beta). All these factors have taugh beta testers that SW:G is a game for playing solo. In contrast, Everquest had a relatively stable chat, consistant beta, and was chocked full of hunting locations. This set the players on the track for grouping immediately.

This is exacerbated by the current bug that is preventing grouped people to get the appropriate XP (ie, its better to be ungrouped).

I remain stubborn on the belief that, as the only class who cannot solo, and *must* lead groups to get *any* XP, the Squad Leader should be compensated with power appropriate to this hindrance.

I am about to train Novice Squad Leader, and **only** thing I get is /sysgroup, which is utterly worthless at improving a good group, and I'm expected to be able to get 120,000 Squad Leader XP (or however much), with this skill alone?

Volley Fire, which is what most people think is the only thing that makes Squad Leader worthwhile, is a Tier 3 skill at the moment.

Thats a lot, *a lot* of leading groups to get to that level, without much worthwhile skills or bonuses to help.

For people without a reputation as a good leader, good luck getting all that XP with nothing more than a title above your head "Novice Squad Leader" to help you convince people you should be group leader

- Vol