Squad Leader Archive

I have seen that I am not the only one left worried by our correspondent, however I suspect our worries are misplaced. With an eye toward improving our correspondent as well as improving our confidence in him, here are some suggestions:

1) Correspondent should maintain a consensus building role in his posting. This means that as correspondent it is your responsibility to at all times appear unbiased. I know that this is a sacrifice...you didn't see me volunteering for the role. The correspondent should be trying to understand all sides of the arguement, make sure that the community has addressed all sides of the arguement and then present the consensus with caveats that describe the level of consensus achieved...your goal should be to try to help the community reach the strongest consensus possible as that is more likely to sway the DEVs. If the consensus is different than your opinion, nobody should be able to tell. This is the single most important point that will keep the community solidly behind its correspondent.

2) Correspondent should keep us clearly informed on what is being told to the DEVs. I think this has been fairly well done especially at first, but things have appeared more muddy of late (at least to me). Ideally this communication to the DEVs will be well written and organized. The clearer the DEVs understand our issues, the more likely positive change will occur. Some measure of the "importunant widow" will help here...keep pushing.

3) Correspondent should clearly communicate back to the community what they hear from the DEVs. This includes telling us that he hasn't heard anything. This has been lacking I believe and improving thiswould go a long way toward confidence in the correspondent. A weekly update on what you have told the DEVs and what you have heard back (even if it is publicly available information) would be very good. This update should be done even if no communication in either direction has happened in a given week.

4) Are you really supposed to be moderating this forum? You do not gain with the community by slapping people when they post in ways you deem incorrect. I agree that it is best if we can keep debates on topic and centralized, but it won't be perfect. Allow people leeway. If moderating the forum is not part of what SOE expects of you, don't do any of it.

Just a few suggestions...I'm sure others will comment on these and offer further input.

--Ze'ev

Oh...

5) Be open and available to the community. You will get flamed regardless of what you do...don't hide behind "take this to PMs". Anything that you do that takes things behind closed doors will lessen the communities trust in you. We get enough closed-door mentality from SOE...be one of us, not one of them

--Ze'ev

1. I am 101% unbiased, but I am entitled to my opinion. I believe you are makign the mistake that I am taking my opinion and running it to the Dev's screaming bloody murder. If you think my opinion should be completely subdued, I would suggest either reccomending that to the SOE team or just scrolling right on by it. I'm a person, too, despite what you may think. If I can't forumlate opinions, how can I compare it to others', see if others feel completely different, or completely the same?


2. I'm sorry that you feel this way. I have posted every instance of communication I've had with anyone at SOE. If someone so much as says "hey" to me, you would know about it. I have heard nothing at all since my last post: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=1495and even there I said quote: "It sounds like Kevin is going to get in touch with each of us indiviudally. And I will bring the information here as soon as I have it." If there was something to report, you all will be the first to know. I will ALT-TAB and post it the second I have it, like I always have and pledged to do.


3. I've done this already, every week, right on queue. The last thing I told the Dev's is clearly visible here: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=1134. I have not spoken to or been spoken to by anyone at SOE since then. If I had, you'd have known. I too get frustrated when I hear that a Dev spoke directly to a correspondent for a class, but all we can do is wait our turn. They are going down the list.


4. Organization is the key to concrete discussion. We have the most organized forum on all of the profession boards, take a look for yourself. I'm sorry you don't like how things are run but once again I say the best thing to do is nominate yourself or someone else to pick up the spot. I don't "moderate" the forum, I simply float important threads.


5. First of all, I never said: "take this to PMs". I said "Comments and discussions encouraged and any personal issues or ideas, PM me." If people have a personal issue with me, why shouldn't they take it to PMs. You're right, all correspondents will always get flamed or questioned for one thing or another. But if someone has a personal offense to something I said or did (for example if I said Squad Leaders who are also creature handlers should be thrown to the Sarlaac!), then I would like to know.

Overall, again, I am sorry you feel this way but I am doing my best. Fear not as the correspondent cycle will take place soon and you will get someone else to take over and I can just sink back into the crowd! I love the class, and the community, and will continue to do what I am personally capable of.

Goodluck,

Void

1. Nobody is entitled to anything. You are not entitled to an opinion and neither am I. Nevertheless, we both have opinions and fortunately we are free to share them here. However, as a correspondent, your job is to represent us. My understanding is that this is supposed to be run as a direct democracy. I have sensed no effort by you to separate your personal opinions from the general opinions of the community. Yes, I can ignore your posts but that isn't the point. The question is if YOU can ignore your posts when you represent me/us to the DEVs. I know very few people who could actually argue against themselves when the chips are down and your arguements can really make a difference. As for you formulating opinions and comparing to others...you don't need to do that as my representative. You need to listen to us, understand our opiions, try to draw conclusions and check those conclusions with us.

Don't try to skew our thoughts and opinions... You have a poll up right now about pet xp. The way the poll is set up is skewed.The choices for answers implicitly assume other changes happen in the xp system. You would like to see the current use of basically inactive pets for SL xp removed. So, you propose options that ALREADY assume some changes that make inactive pets give zero SL xp (i.e. you assume an xp system based on group damage). This is what I mean when I say it is important for you to maintain a balanced image. I feel like you are trying to lead us, not represent us.

2 and 3. I have seen some of these posts, but not all of them. Are they burried in other threads? Why aren't they sticky threads so they are easy to find? Effective communication with us is more than just putting the info somewhere...it is putting the info where it is obvious and clear. It may be that I'm doing a bad job of reading the forums...but I'd hope that you'd try to make sure even lazy schmoes like me are included.

4. The organization of the discussion is largly due to the people discussing. We were organize before you started slapping people so you come off looking like a bully (at least to me) with how you do stuff now.

5. Is this a personal issue? Yes, in that it is me complaining about how you are doing things. However, the fact that you are involving yourself at a personal level in the discussions and your opinions may directly effect what the DEVs think about SLs has bearing on all of us. So it is right for your conduct to be discussed publicly. You are a public figure.

I believe you love the class and all, but that isn't enough to be a good representative. Your personal capabilities shouldn't enter into it though except as your abilities apply to correctly and clearly depicting what the SL community feels it needs. Your job is not to lead us, your job is to represent us.

I appreciate that it is not a fun job...as I said before, that's why I'm not interested in it. But I expect that those who DO want the job will do a good job at representing us.

--Ze'ev

I just went and read some of your threads and I retract most of my issues with you communicating to us. I would like to see a weekly "here's what I've seen from the DEVs" thread added to a weekly "here's what I've sent the DEVs" and I'd suggest that you make the latest week's threads sticky. Minor improvement that would help me actually see your posts...somehow I have missed some of them. Sorry.

On a further note...I did see you explicitliy said that pet grouped xp was a bug. Again...you are applying your personal opinions and not the opinions of the community. I'm rehashing I guess...but it is those things that bother me. If you are going to call that a bug, you should call the fact that we get xp for our personal damage a bug. If you weren't arguing so hard for the point in other threads I believe you would be more balanced and better represent our community.

--Ze'ev

Um, I read this board pretty regularly and I'm not sure what Void is supposed to be doing wrong...

As far as I can tell, people are mad because of his opinion on pets and squad experience. Yes, I disagree with him and yes, we probably should have had more debate before he submitted an opinion on the matter. But consider the situation.

No other class is having such a critical debate about their EXPERIENCE system. The entire lifeblood of their playstyle and advancement. Commandos have a worse time getting experience than we do, but their solution is simple...give them working weapons that give them the correct type of experience.

Experience for any other profession is very straightforward. Kill things. Craft things. Use pet commands. If these things don't work, then the crafting, or the weapons, or the pets have to be fixed.

The squad leader is one of the most unique professions in the game and it is also unfinished. This results in a lot of ambiguity of what the squad leader is supposed to DO...and we seem to have two main camps.

1) The role of the squad leader is to give group buffs and bonuses, and the composition of the group should not matter.
2) Squad leaders are regular group players who should get extra tools and incentives to organize groups of players.

Obviously if you disagree on what a squad leader is then you won't agree on how we should get experience. People who disagree on how to get experience probably have different play styles, and when you try to push one person's play style on another you will generate hard feelings in the community. If and when the experience fix for us comes, it will be good for one half of the squad leader community and bad for everyone else.

Void is between a rock and a hard place, pretty much...

Ouch Nachmal!

Give the guy a break. Look at his job discription...

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=184

Its very vague, and in fact they ask him to sort though posts and discern what he feels is relevant. That opens the door to various forms of interpretation. Our correspondent is doing the best job that he can, and if he is no more perfect then the rest of us, at least he is cheap!

I do think it is legitimate for you to ask SOE to clarify what role they want from their Profession Correspondant. Its just a bit unfair to placethat criticism onour unpaid and overworked spokesman.

We should petition to get an SOE paid employee to monitor these boards. Thenwe couldreally hammer them!

Duncaen Starstriker

Starsider

Alas, I must throw mydignity upon the sword, as you are now the one troll on the entire SWG forums who I can no longer stand to hear from. You'll see a bit of me actually attempting todebate with you and the rest of the time just insulting you. Some of your poinst are going to be hard for me to debate, though, since many of your allegations are just your feelings (which you felt should be expressed in lecturing us in ways of representative democracy and forum moderation, lessons which obviously we needed and obviously only you could elaborate upon for us).

Hopefully I can keep the insults subtle out of respect to the rest of the forums, but make no mistake about my contempt for you and your inability to both resist the need to make a spectacle of yourself (as I am certain that is what you want) along with my disgust at your horrible attempt at trying to diosguise your bid for attention as an intellectual debate centered on your preaching the obvious to Vem (andthe rest of us) and just being a generally pretentious brick.

1. At no point did Vem attempt to skew anyone's thoughts or opinions. In the poll you mention the choices for answers did not implcitly assume other changes woud occur in the XP system. As a matter of fact, after helists the choiceshe points out that IF the xp system changes that all bets are off and the discussion may be moot.

As far as his entitlement to his opinion is concerned, I would say it would be rather difficult to deny it to him. Or to you for that matter. How can one not be entitled to something which cannot be taken away? Of course, you know the old saying, "Opinions are all like ass holes: Nochmal's tongue has been up one in a public restroom."

As far as what you have/have not sensed, how can he be responsible for pandering to your perceptions? I haven't heard any outpouring from the forums about his inability to keep his biases to himself. Taking the idea of this being a direct democracy, no one has "voted" against him is you--and your only perceptible purpose seems to be to stick your nose in the air and let us know how much more fancy you can be with speeches where you point out the obvious.

2 & 3. So now that it turns out he has kept us informed about what the Devs are up to, he's doing a bad job as correspondant because he hasn't put a big gold star anda neon display next to it? In order to eternally remind us that the Devs have spoken to him but haven't really said anything encouraging or told him about any upcoming changes or given him any real feedback about our suggestions and so on just to demonstrate that he is in fact telling us what is being told to him? That would make for two posts which contain nothing else of value permanetly stuck to the top of the forums.

As far as you being a "lazy schmoe" is concerned, I hate to hear you let yourself off so lightly, but I'd like to ask why he has should be responsible for partcipating for you? You can't be bothered to read the forums yourself, so it's Vemnox's fault you don't know he's in contact with the Devs?

4. You calling him a bully is so completely ridiculous I'm not sure how exactly I'm supposed to refute/respond to it. Just as no one can thoroughly read the forums for you (a task which you just admitted you are not willing to do for yourself--yet expect to be kept up on the conversations with us). At the same time, you're using this royal "we" all over the place, as if you're speaking for everyone. I just checked, and your first postunder this namewas June 30, and your first post on the SL forum was July 11 which would mean that, unless you've been posting here under a different name, you're haven't been around but a month and a week (by the 6/30 post) to see what WE are doing on this forum before he came in and "started slapping people like a bully." Perhaps you're not aware that Captain Vemnox has been apart of this forum since before he was a correspondant as well? Perhaps it doesn't matter if he has been or not it still doesn't change your relatively new status as a participant here?

I've been reading through most of your SL posts which fluctuate between you lecturing us on the obvious and sniping at Vem, and I've yet to see him respond in any way but to ask you to explain what your problem is in a PM. I may be wrong since I didn't get all the way through all of your posts, but if so it was worth it for not having to read every stupid thing you have to say.

Back to teh bully topic: earlier, when someone asked what the Devs had to say( http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=1879, Vem replied with exactly nothing but the URLs to the two forums he's referred you to and the promise that he will let the man know when the Devs tell him anything else. To which you replied, the first line of which read "Don't get mad at him..." Since I can't see how you could even interpret Vem's words as angry--there being so few and all of them giving the poster exactly what he wanted and a promise of more, I rethought for a minute my disgust for you. It's obvious that you're a little bit retarded and can't really be held responsible for the people you hurt with the beam of concentrated crazy that sometimes bursts from your forum posting orifice.

5. As far as this being a personal issue with you, I agree. So I guess we can agree to agree on that then. So either that one is a tie or I win.

Hummm...

I had some time to think about this on the way home and I realize that I've made the mistake of saying mostly bad things. Vem, you've collected a lot of our ideas and sent them to the DEVs in a rather well formatted way. I do think you let personal prejudice weigh a bit much on at least one point, but on the whole you are doing a dirty thankless job pretty well. As for the statement that we can just wait for the next correspondent rotation...well, if it came to a vote, I'd vote for you to stay on if you're willing. Continuity in how we are represented to the DEVs is far more important to how the DEVs see and react to us than us having an arguement over an issue. I don't think you are doing a perfect job and that is to be expected...but I hope you don't mind if we point out things we think could be improved.

I hope you notice I never called for you to step down or anything like that...keep at it...I hope your efforts pay off.

--Ze'ev

I'm inclined to agree with PrezPendejo.

This thread is just another thinly veiled attack against our correspondent who has done nothing to deserve it. It is neither constructive to discussions here, nor does it offer any substantive criticisms.

1) Our correspondent has done a better job of this than those of most other professions. Judging by the traffic the last few days, it would seem I'm the only one not outraged by Vemnox's decision to include the pet issue on his report. That's because I agree with him, and so do quite a few other people who said as much weeks ago. There is no consensus on the issue, except to note that developer attention is needed, which is what he's attempting to achieve.

2 & 3) Done.

4) I for one appreciate the moderation that's been going on here. A dozen new threads a day asking the same question (such as "Where are trainers located?") is noise. Efforts to redirect those types of posts to threads where they've already been discussed is efficient and appropriate. I have very little patience or sympathy for someone who can't take the time to scan existing thread titles or perform a simple search to find relevant information.

5) Again, I don't see the issue. Some things are better handled by private message. I don't want to waste my time wading through threads that are nothing more than conversations between two individuals.

Well Tychus,

1) If there is no consensus on a subject, the correspondent should not be telling the DEVs anything that would imply that there is.

2 & 3) I would like to see stickys on the weekly thing...I do in fact read these forums regularly and have since releaseand I STILL missed the weekly feel of the reports. My mistake I admit, but perhaps some stickiness would be nice.

4) He isn't deleting any threads so you still have to sort through them all. In fact, his posts bump them back up the board. Useless threads get ignored anyway...no need to slap people for it.

5) I don't believe we've seen many threads which only concerned two people. If we did, then yeah...they should be PMs instead.

--Ze'ev

I've read this board everyday since the game came out, and I really see no bad qualities in Vem. I think its laughable when I see most of the long essays written on how he is horrible and all that nonsense. He is not omniscient, yet he does seem to reply to almost every single issue placed on these boards. Whether everyone here bothers to read them or not, his comments are widespread if you look for them. He always puts his personal opinion in (as he IS entitled) and he also takes in account other points of view, as he should. It appears to me that people just want something to complain about and since SL is not up to expectations yet and Vem is our first rep, everyone is taking it out on him. When the next Rep is chosen, I am pry gonna see someone say "at least this guy is better than Vemnox," and I will laugh because this is typical. Give the guy a break, he is doing a better job than I would have expected from anybody.

nochmal you are completely wrong in your assumptions. The whole point of cycling correspondants is so that the Devs can get all the opinions they can. Of course every person has an opinion and will carry it with them to the Devs. Whateve they feel is the strongest point they will fight for the most. In cases where there is extreme inconsistencies with the game, most players agree what that strongest point is. As such statistical balance is maintained.

The most you should asl for from a correspondant is to be kept informed. That's it. They get their ideas from the community and choose which priorites are just that, priority.