Squad Leader Archive
Thread: FEEDBACK: The Group Leader Issue
I don't play a Squadleader and even I'm excited about this.
I hope two issuse can get resovled before pushing to live:
1. Intensity of game play will be increased thus permitting for higher level mobs to allow players to test and combine there skills. If no additional threat exists combat will become more boring then it already is.
2. Bounthunter TEF.
Keldarin,
I understand your point of view on this, even though I'm one of the vet SL's who ardently supports keeping SL abilities part of being a GL as well. Reading your post, I did think about a couple of options that we may have available to serve both ends.
One is to simply move group-wide bonuses to being a GL requirement. In this manner, group buffs and bonuses cannot stack to being huge numbers, probably resulting in a nerf which would screw the individual SL over. Allow any SL in the group, regardless of being GL or not, apply the individual buffs. If you want a real-life approach to it, think of it something like the lieutenant providing the overall leadership, but the sergeants working with individuals to keep the squad running behind the Lt.
The other would be much more complicated, but would allow anyone to use SL abilities, even if they aren't GL. Apply the bonus numbers similar to how armor is treated with their negative effectiveness costs. If one is a MSL and GL, there are no negative effects at all, the group receives full bonus from them. If there is another SL in the group, their bonuses are applied, but with some negatives similar to someone having Rifleman 3-3-3-3 and wearing Recon armor. The more SL's in the group, the greater the negatives to how much bonus they provide. Note, I'm not saying detract from the full bonus the one SL is providing. But lessen the added bonus more SL's provide. For example, it currently looks something like this.
One SL = 100% SL bonus / Two SL = 200% bonus / Three SL = 300% bonus. And so on. My thought is this, and since I'm at work and don't have time to crunch numbers I'm throwing some out there, they aren't by any means well-plotted for their actual value, just for example affect.
One SL = 100% SL bonus. Two SL = 180% bonus / Three SL = 240% bonus. And so on. Maybe even a more severe drop would be warrented. The point is, anyone can still help the group, but a full group of SL's won't offer ridiculous numbers in bonuses.
For the Master SL vs dabbler argument, you can use that same second thought by further using numbers in judging how much each additional SL provides. A second MSL will provide more additional numbers than, say, a 4-4-0-0 SL. 180% vs 140% of the skills the second SL actually can use/help withas an example off the numbers above.
Quiet420 wrote:
also...by the same reasoning for use of multiple sl's buffs.....will we have a reason to have multiple politicians in the same city? it would follow as the two professions are very similiar in regards to the fact that they are both professions of "leaders"
Brilliant! Make Squad Leader require no SP, and be based on SL XP like it used to be and have it gain slowly so that it takes a few months of grinding to get master!
!
Keldarin wrote:
Hey guys,
Lots of great discussion here. Honestly I'm a bit surprised and encouraged that this is the biggest issue most of you have with the new Squad Leader enhancements.
you know...I had to reread this several times....and I wish I could take credit for the idea....but wow...this would solve all the problems....make it so xp is gained at a SLOW pace, perhaps only from ELITE LEVEL MOBS....and only by the actual Leader of the group....this would make sense, as after a SL has mastered, they will look to train a second in command, occasionally you would have groups with multiple squad leaders, but they all put in a tremendous effort, and as such, the buffs should apply from multiple sl's...and it wouldn't throw things out of balance.
KJFett3 wrote:
Quiet420 wrote:
also...by the same reasoning for use of multiple sl's buffs.....will we have a reason to have multiple politicians in the same city? it would follow as the two professions are very similiar in regards to the fact that they are both professions of "leaders"
Brilliant! Make Squad Leader require no SP, and be based on SL XP like it used to be and have it gain slowly so that it takes a few months of grinding to get master!
HzGuderian wrote:
I understand your point of view on this, even though I'm one of the vet SL's who ardently supports keeping SL abilities part of being a GL as well. Reading your post, I did think about a couple of options that we may have available to serve both ends.
One is to simply move group-wide bonuses to being a GL requirement. In this manner, group buffs and bonuses cannot stack to being huge numbers, probably resulting in a nerf which would screw the individual SL over.
Squad Leader balance is a big concern and I'd rather get that resolved as best as possible before these changes go live.
Nearly every other profession in the game can stack in a meaningful way when multiples are added to a group. Eight Rifleman in a group means eight times the damage output,eight Doctors in a group means eight times the healing potential why should only one Squad Leader in a group be able to provide the benefit?
Squad Leader buffs need to be balanced so that they are useful and worthwhile when only one is used from a single Squad Leader as well as not being overpowered when eight are applied from a full group of Squad Leaders.
~ Dave "Keldarin" White ~
SWG Live - Lead Systems Designer
Keldarin wrote:
HzGuderian wrote:
I understand your point of view on this, even though I'm one of the vet SL's who ardently supports keeping SL abilities part of being a GL as well. Reading your post, I did think about a couple of options that we may have available to serve both ends.
One is to simply move group-wide bonuses to being a GL requirement. In this manner, group buffs and bonuses cannot stack to being huge numbers, probably resulting in a nerf which would screw the individual SL over.
Squad Leader balance is a big concern and I'd rather get that resolved as best as possible before these changes go live.
Nearly every other profession in the game can stack in a meaningful way when multiples are added to a group. Eight Rifleman in a group means eight times the damage output,eight Doctors in a group means eight times the healing potential why should only one Squad Leader in a group be able to provide the benefit?
Squad Leader buffs need to be balanced so that they are useful and worthwhile when only one is used from a single Squad Leader as well as not being overpowered when eight are applied from a full group of Squad Leaders.
I'd say to keep the SL buffs as they are now for a single leader, and to reduce the effectiveness of each additional buff depending on how many Squad Leaders are in the group. For example, if I were to apply Boost Morale, it would be a 10% buff to mind and action regen. If another SL joined, his would be somewhere around 5% (adjust according to what you feel is fair). We'd have 15% increased regen at that point. The next SL could increase by an even lower amount, making it maybe 17 or 18%. Just a thought, let me know what you think.
Message Edited by Ceerak-Eclipse on 09-08-2005 05:22 PM
And I would agree with you in that sentiment, which was why I had suggested the second option. I like it far better than the 'quick fix' first, but I also know it is more involved and you're hoping to get this publish out sooner. But, the second would be much better. Some sort of scale as to how much benefit each additional SL gives, and better yet based on their level in the SL's if possible. Our concern is how much is stacking, not the fact that it is stacking. Or at least, that's my main concern, and I have a feeling it would help ease many of the other vet SL's minds if that were addressed.
Keldarin wrote:
Squad Leader buffs need to be balanced so that they are useful and worthwhile when only one is used from a single Squad Leader as well as not being overpowered when eight are applied from a full group of Squad Leaders.
Not to nick-pick, but you DO realize that a SL 3000 currently can give the +50 group TN bonus on Live, and have had this ability for a very long time? And a MSL gives a +60 GTN bonus?
Phenix1050 wrote:
the fact that +50 TN could be considered out of balance considering it only takes 73 skillpoints to get that skill while it takes 77 skillpoints to get Master Scout, which is how you get +50 TN otherswise, the fact that this TN boost still negates the entire boost that Rangers get,
Keldarin wrote:
HzGuderian wrote:
I understand your point of view on this, even though I'm one of the vet SL's who ardently supports keeping SL abilities part of being a GL as well. Reading your post, I did think about a couple of options that we may have available to serve both ends.
One is to simply move group-wide bonuses to being a GL requirement. In this manner, group buffs and bonuses cannot stack to being huge numbers, probably resulting in a nerf which would screw the individual SL over.
Squad Leader balance is a big concern and I'd rather get that resolved as best as possible before these changes go live.
Nearly every other profession in the game can stack in a meaningful way when multiples are added to a group. Eight Rifleman in a group means eight times the damage output,eight Doctors in a group means eight times the healing potential why should only one Squad Leader in a group be able to provide the benefit?
Squad Leader buffs need to be balanced so that they are useful and worthwhile when only one is used from a single Squad Leader as well as not being overpowered when eight are applied from a full group of Squad Leaders.
i simply reject the idea that it should be a for everyone type of skill. i think that one of the greatest flaws in SWG is the trend of dumbing down classes and skillsets so the noobiest noob can and will play it...
the most elegent and logical way to prevent squad leaders from becoming too powerful and evolve into the PVE FOTM is to allow GROUP enhancing effects to only applly from the squad leader who is the actual group leader. the basic enhamcments and single target enhancements could still be used as a buff type of thing by any leader in the group but calling targets and effecting a target or effeceting the group as a whole should only be the function of the squad leader IF he is the leader of the group.
not doing this and your going to end up with a FOTM skill. as much as you guys code for the game we play the game. it is blaringly obvious what will occur if you get 7 squadleader/docs and a rifleman in a group or 7 and a jedi... etc.
as it is written now its a recipe for PVE /PVP disaster if the squadleaders abilities stack.