Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Official: Your Comments on the New Abilities
SOE is not just the publisher of EQ. They didn't just buy EQ. They bought Verant which included EQ and all of Verant's employee contracts. They have developed at least the last two EQ expansions since the merger, so they do have the applicable game knowledge. I assume that is why Lucas Arts partnered with them. It is one of the reasons I bought the game. I thought they knew what they were doing.
That being said, I really should not have flamed them. I let my dissapointment in the proposed "upgrades" get the better of me. I have developed software and its not easy. The developers can use myfeedback, but the ire they can do without. I just hope they wore the appropriate flame resistant gear when they read my post, lol.
Asa TK If I currently get X% in a group and am now forced into defensive stance while everyone else is in offensive stance,I would then get less experience then I would otherwise. Using my prior scenario it would be 50% less, but that is only if there is a significant benefit to the stances. So when asked to join in a group led by a SL, I would have to be willing to take a significant hit in xp compared to one that is lead by a non SL. The choice is not all that difficult really unless you are a Master TK.
However, that is not my biggest concern about stances. Sometimes its ok to take an xp hit if it keeps you alive. My concern is with having a SL determining which stance I am in. The first time there is a conflict betwen me and the SL about which stance I should bein, its adios amigos. I would much prefer to have this ability under my control. It makes me happy, is more efficient, and frees up the SL to do other things. I have led plenty of large events, and I would not want to be burdened with something this trivial anyway.
This is of course my opinion. I think many of the SL's, if not the majority would agree with you on the stances issue.
Squad leader effectiveness should be proportional to group size. Therefore little with one other and huge with 19 others. In small groups coordination is easy, every member can see easily what the situation is with any of the other group members. A squad leader dedicated to the coordination of 20 including himself will allow those 19 others to better focus their efforts to the group's success. When assisting within such a large group on the fly, how well do you think it would work out if done individually? How much better would it work if we used our /sysgroup command and asked that people assist Dan, I think number 14 of 20? Target Dan, then use /assist macro is how easy in that? Lets think that through, crtl-1 is the individual, ctrl-2 is the group leader, maybe scrolling through all the group names is faster and selecting it? How do you suggest that a significant number of the other 18 people quickly find Dan's target when Dan is in a tight situation? I think a good way is to tell people what Dan's target is and have them deal with it as they determine best.
/cover is way better than hoping 18 people will maybe quickly find and /assist the correct group member.
The good squad leader will not be using these commands to designate every single target from first fight to last throughout the time on. They are not intended to be very needed within a small group of 10 or less, but that is the number where they begin to be a factor. The place that something like /cover has is to save someone from incap or worse. The offensive and defensive stance commands can change the amount of exp an individual makes per kill, but I think you will find that there is less experience in the cantina to be made. Their purpose is to improve the overall tempo of things and improve the challenge within reach for the group. Faster kills, greater challenge = more exp.
Lets look at PvP for a moment. How well will a group without a squad leader do against one led by a squad leader? How does 2 equal size groups with squad leaders do when one squad leader decides to allow his members to independently /assist compared to the squad leader that actively directs? How does the smaller actively led group compare to the larger actively led group? The squad leader is a force multiplier and the multipliersare active commands.
Yes I agree that initially this may cause some difficulty gaining acceptance with the general populace because their is a big measure of trust needed to justify giving someone control over how a fight is done, bad experiences will happen and they will get publicized. But truely the squad leader is big part of an organized group, of a guild, and not part of small pickup groups.
I have had a lot of combat/targeting problems recently regadless of /assist.
And this just after you said that /assist>>>>/cover
slightly off topic, but it's been suggested quite a few times that boost morale be changed to damage intsead of wounds, therefore if you have a group with a doc, everyone will almost always have full/near full action/health and then I, the SL, throw a boost morale and it balances everyones damage between pools, that will effectivly heal mind, and the doc can then clean up the health/action again.
I don’t want to control my friend’s actions. Nor do I want to waste skill points on things that a well-disciplined group can do with or without a squad leader. I’d like a set of skills and abilities that let me bring something unique to the group that enhances everyone else’s abilities that in turn let me stand out as an effective group member.
I think Squad leader skills should revolve around improving communications, intelligence, combat abilities and faction bonuses for the Squad Leader and the group.
A) Communications. Allow the SL to effectively communicate with the group.
- Allow the SL to send System messages to the group or individuals in the group.
- Allow the SL to choose a text color for his messages
- Allow the SL to play a sound or attach sounds to system messages
- Let a SL “radio back to HQ” for new missions from the field
B) Intelligence. Allow a group with a SL to have better access to information.
- Team members can see each other’s mission waypoints.
- SL has access to special group missions
- Allow group members to see the SL’s target in a highlighted color (similar to the blue glowie around a dead Jedi)
- Allow medics in the group to see highly wounded team members in a highlighted color (maybe placing a small waypoint beacon on them)
C) Combat boosts. Allow us to enhance the abilities of those in the group.
- Grant the SL a command to increase hit/damage of group members
- Grant the SL a command to increase the weapon speed of group members
- Grant the SL a “target critical area” command to help group members bypass armor or increase damage
- Grant the SL a command to allow medics a boost to the range they can heal from
- Grant the SL rally commands (similar to the ones already in) to allow team members to shake off conditions (stunned, confused etc)
D) Faction bonuses
- Allow an SL to grand overt/covert status if they have a faction affiliation.
- Allow an SL to control extra faction flunkies (stormtroopers or rebel troops)
- Allow an SL and his group to identify coverts
- Allow an SL and his group to see overts with a red glowie
These are off the top of my head and I’m rushing to finish this at work, I hope people post some constructive feedback.
DarthGnome wrote:
- Allow the SL to choose a text color for his messages
you can actually already do this:
/sys . \#ff0000\ Everyone /follow on me please!
The question is, is there a way to macro that input while still allowing you to type your message into it and send it? I mean, I can macro hitting other toolbar buttons, but can I macro text into my chat function and NOT have it send yet?
It would be nice if there was a feature like in asherons call 2 that we could set /alias words
My feelings are mixed on the new functionality. It's nice to see that at least we're on a drawing board somewhere. But I agree that on paper it surelooks like the vast majority of the new skills look like they're designed to pet/herd moron/newbs. That disappoints me, I really wish there was at least one killer app/skill (in the eyes of our people we want to join our groups) for Squad Leaders to really market themselves with.
That said, I can see usefulness in these new skills. I know it's not en vouge to approve of these changes, but please hear me out. I see value particularly for pick-up/random hunting/raiding groups (which, not being in a guild myself, is usually what I lead), and I largely enjoy them even with the skills as they are now. I tend to fall in with folks that are just comfortably average joes (somewhere in the vast middle between n00b and uber) competent and trustworthy peeps, but not necessarily the best of the best. A lot of times these folks are just looking for a good time and someone to competently lead them to one. Since these pick up groups are just average folks (or more likely greatly varying degrees of skill) and not well drilled together it generally takes a fair amount of time (and mistakes in the field) to get them up to speed on everyone's roles and goals and rules and whatnot. I can see a great deal of value into assigning "Front/Ranged/Support" and since those would be standard across all SL squads they've ever been in it should implicitly get them up to speed quicker. Basically it'll help get everyone on the same page if we all speak the same language, newb and uber alike.
Now, Imagine leading an attack, say on either a PvE or PvP battlefield. You keep each sub group in defensive mode and hold fire until everyone's in position around the preselected target(s) (unless they aggro, then on to plan b). A very well drilled group that is working together could certainly take offense in having their finger forced off the trigger here, obviously they're capable of maintaining their own discipline. But I might humbly offer that in a random group with a battle tested, disciplined, veteran sniper lying next to a jittery pure rookie notsosharpshooter, that vet should feel very secure in the knowledge that the rookie cannot possibly get an itchy trigger finger and singlehandedly bring all hell down on them before time. Sure, you can kick the rook, and often there's good reason too, but there are many times where you may not want to and I don't think you should have to. This gives you and the group more options. Besides, how else is the greenhorn going to learn?
Ok, once your group is ready and in position, give a countdown then flip the ranged group to offensive, then either have predetermined targets/MainAssisters or paint the targets yourself with group attack or with /coverfire on the Main Assist and give Ranged fire at will (all tied to /sys or /g phrase issuing the attack order). At the same time the melee Front-Liners should be charging (still under defensive stance to more safely close ground). The front line group could have their own "main assist" lead-meeler or just assist on the ranged MA's target. When the front lines get in range, still alive, flip them to offensive (probably want to give them fire-at-will at the same time Ranged gets it) and let them unleash their own brand of havoc. Meanwhile healers in the support group can enjoy the defensive stance throughout and do what they do best either up front or in back. I don't think I'd want to do much /groupheal as I think personally that'd be stretching my concentration too far, and besides medics/docs are good at what they do. I could see it being used to ask for a quick heal on myself if I'm taking heavy fire, or if another crucial player isn't getting immediate attention, so basically for emergencies only. I think in a battle of two equally matched squads (in terms of firepower) the sum of these slight edges in coordination should spell the difference.
I know, this is just one example that I've crafted to try and make look good on paper. There are many many more situations where judicious use of /sys and /kick will be far more efficient. I just think these skills have their use and in the hands of even an average SL could greatly increase the effectiveness of the whole group, thus raising the enjoyment of all. Rising tide lifts all boats sort of thing.
Ok, looking back over, yes, the only thing this actually provides numbers-wise that simple chatspace-preplanning doesn't are the offensive/defensive stances (which in themselves alone might be worth it if they're done right, and they actually WORK. And hey, if they're sweet bonuses, they may just be the killer app we're looking for). But it also provides split second coordination. If joe average takes down his mark he may hesitate on which of the dozen others to shoot next. Even if I type out the next target, or use my "/sys attack %TT" macro it's going to take him time to comprehend and tab thru and not make a mistake. I would prefer to see what everyone else suggests and instead of /groupattack and /groupassist just make a /grouptarget, but even so the precious seconds saved by me declaring targets can make the difference between victory and defeat, and I think by a large margin as well. Perhaps in that split second people will resent being treated as cattle, but perhaps a second later when they're still breathing and an unseen enemy is /coverfired dead at their feet, maybe it won't be so bad.
It's given that many veterans and good players will not enjoy having their initiave (and thus fun) taken forcibly from them (or even the possibility that it might be taken). They should address that with their squad leader and a good squad leader should see the value in keeping good/valuable players happy and still in the group and so not abuse his power. But, in fact I think a lot of people will get very irate if/when a poor SL spams /followme and /healme!!111 and just plain misuse the commands (it's gonna happen, we all know it will). We all have every right to be upset in such a poor group, and should leave and let other people know that SL is a bad apple. I posted a while back why I felt it was important to keep riff-raff, l33t d00s out of squad leadership (thru high SL reqs and by forgoing over the top ubersweet buffs in favor of subtle sum-of-all-edges bonuses that aren't likely to attract the kiddies)
Ok, I've blathered on quite long enough, I'm pretty sure I'm squarely of the dissenting opinion here. I am in favor of a great many of the other community suggested new skills. I'm simply suggesting here that there's a vast silent majority of players out there don't fall into the black/white n00b/veteran pools. And for those players I really think there is a place for these skills to add to their enjoyment of the game and thus a market for Squad Leaders who know how to use them.
Thanks for your time,
-Psquire
Belce2 wrote:
... How does 2 equal size groups with squad leaders do when one squad leader decides to allow his members to independently /assist compared to the squad leader that actively directs? ...
I think that that active /groupattack SL will >>> the independent /assist SL everytime. It's a simple matter who can apply maximum forcefastest. The active will have max guns on target in an instant. The independent will have max guns on target in a second or two, and is subject to a lot of human error.
Consider two groups on a PvP battlefield, eachof 4 equally matched and armed MasterRiflemen and 1 Master Squad Leader. We'll say the SLs are out of range for this exercise and are purely barking orders.
The only difference is that Group 1 is Actively directedand his squad is agreeable to the use of /groupattack. Group 2 is run under Independent /assist.
Now let's say both groups enter range at the same timeSL 1 hit's his "/groupattack Badguy1" button at the same time tht group two hits his /sys "Assist Me on TT%" macro. Group 1 begins firing normal attack as soon as the SLcommand gets to the server. Group 2, even if they know it's coming and have their finger on the assist button are waiting on that order they have to wait for their SL's msg to get to server, be transmitted to them, them to see/comprehend the signal, then they have to push the button. Group 2 will not commence attacking until their assist commands get back to the server. At best in a lag free environment they will be close and maybe tie, at worst their #1 guy will go down and Group 1's #1 guy will still be standing. It's now 4 on 3. Extend this outto a20 vs 20battle and the edgesare starting to add up quickly. I submit this battle will end in a route. And thatall things being equal the independents will never win. Perhaps the Group one guys will feel like it's a hollow victory and they did nothing for it. I don't know, it's a possibility, none of us has tried it, so we can only speculate.
My finalthoughts are that Group 1 will have the tactical edge based on timing alone, andalso that in the heat of battle I suspect most people (not all) will be happier to win as a teamand come out alive and triumphant rather than feeling that they individually really "owned" on that round.
-Psquire
Just my 2 creds but I thinkwe should have a morale boost that every 5 min or so heals group mind. 5 min is long enough that you cant over use it in combat but at same time makes for a valuable 1 time use.. if feel thats too short. 10min.
Aelstyn Melarn
SL
"Squad leader effectiveness should be proportional to group size."
I disagree with that premise.
A group of 20 is already better than a group of 5, because they are able to bring 4x as much firepower to the fight.
Conversely, it's incredibly more difficult to directly supervise 20 people than it is 5. With 20 people, you can give only 5% of your attention to each member; with 5, you can give them each 20% of your attention.
A SL that is able to concentrate on a smaller unit is able to have a greater impact on that unit's effectiveness. If I stand behind a machine gun team with a spotting scope, I'm going to be much more effective at directing their fire than if I'm trying to direct the fire of 6 machine gun teams spread along a 200m line. Of course, the tradeoff is that 6 machine gun teams can lay down a LOT more fire - but my personal influence on each is less.
If SL abilities scale at all with group size, they should scale inversely - be most effective with small groups. The weight of numbers will offset the regressivity anyway: If I can provide a 20% accuracy bonus to each member of a 5 person group, or a 10% accuracy bonus to each member of a 10 member group, I'm still better off with the 10 member group.
Belce wrote,
"/cover is way better than hoping 18 people will maybe quickly find and /assist the correct group member."
This is not true. Ask anyone who has played a MMORG game where /assist worked propertly and they will tell you the same. If /assist worked everyone could click one button and they would immediately have thetarget of the Main Assist (MA) targeted (You determine who is MA at the start of the raid and just hardcode your button to read /assist "Main Tank"). This is much faster then having the SL find the target of the MA and then doing /coverfire. Plus you want the MA to engage first so they take the agro of the mobs, the healers are setup to heal them, and your CC have an indication of where the mobs are headed. If everyone fires at the mob at the first shot, then there is no agro control at all and the wrong person, someone who can not handle the agro, will die.Right now, in SWG most mobs are weak, even if they are red. Thiswill change if they ever get serious content in this game, at which point agro control will become very important. This is in addition to the other objections I have with healers attacking mobs, Crowd Control attacking mob,etc...
Belce wrote,
"I have had a lot of combat/targeting problems recently regadless of /assist.
And this just after you said that /assist>>>>/cover"
Of course. There are a lot of bugs in the game right now. I am optimistic that they are going to fixthe /assist bugand the rest of the bugs they have on their list. I think they would be much better off fixing this command then doing any of the Squad Leader upgrades that they have suggested.
I have had a tremdous amout of success leading large raid encounters (50+ members) with just the use of the /assist command. Anyone who has led large groups will tell you that the biggest problem is information overload. There are to many tells being sent. To many things going on to keep track of. To many people running around to keep organized. You have to create a disciplined methodologyin the small groups so when you scale you can handle the larger encounters. Every littledetail has to be assigned to a particular person and then you have to trust them to do it propertly. There are just to many things that need to happen to do it all yourself. Trying to control who is in what stance, what target to hit out of several, etc. will overburder even the most diligent commander.
Psquire wrote...
"It's given that many veterans and good players will not enjoy having their initiave (and thus fun) taken forcibly from them (or even the possibility that it might be taken). They should address that with their squad leader and a good squad leader should see the value in keeping good/valuable players happy and still in the group and so not abuse his power."
This is near impossible. You have to decide to either have a competent group and kick out the bad apples (or provide the appropriate discipline) or you cater to the weaker players and the skilled players leave. Skilled players can pick any guild they want, orgroup if they are well known. Top guilds will not allow weak players to stay with them for long. They either get with their program or eventually they will get booted out.
Psquire wrote...
"But I might humbly offer that in a random group with a battle tested, disciplined, veteran sniper lying next to a jittery pure rookie notsosharpshooter, that vet should feel very secure in the knowledge that the rookie cannot possibly get an itchy trigger finger and singlehandedly bring all hell down on them before time."
A veteran players worst fear is a weak leader... The trigger happy rookie won't last long if they don't get with the program.
Psquire wrote...
"I think in a battle of two equally matched squads (in terms of firepower) the sum of these slight edges in coordination should spell the difference."
Which these new SL skills do not provide. See above regading the /assist key. In addition to coordination, the key is role specialization and flexibility. A more flexible army will win a less flexible army any day. All the flexible army has to do is hit them where the flexible army can not respond to in the appropriate army. In fact, all you have to do is kill the SL and the rest of the mindless followers are toast.
There are a lot more things I can punch holes in, but I won't bother. The suggestions I am giving are based on lots of large and small raid encounters (Mostly PvE). Its not based on theory. I am enjoying the dialog though! 