Squad Leader Archive
Thread: SQL + BH? Can someone explain please...
Sylow wrote:
It already scales its power by using the called shot skill modifier which you can find thoughout the skillboxes.
So indeed, a dabbler won't make that big profit out of this ability. The (also very mighty) group buffs are actually what is of most interest for a dabbler. If those still are adjusted so their power scales with the leadership skill modifiers, i am not worrying about those any more and called shot it the only "problematic issue" left.
Anyways, i actually see not that big a problem with it in the Jedi-BH context. The Jedi up to now didn't understand, but the BH has to sacrifice a good deal of skillpoints for MSL to be able to use it to full efficiency. Also, the BH-Jedi generally is one-on-one, so the +155% damage is somewhat offset by the fact that it needs to be alternated with the attack.
In effect, the BH gains something like +90% of damage (the cooldown of Called Shot is not that bad, so i judge the reduction to be below 50%) increase from it. In combination with a nice group buff, this still yields the BH some nice improvement of his abilities, but it's still within somewhat acceptable boundaries.
The actual prblem will be seen in theGCW. If a group dedicates one MSL to do nothing but keep Called Shot going, they loose 12.5% of the possible attacks done, but gain a +155% of damage output on all attacks they do. And the SL in this case even can easily be worked as a bot, no player necessary. (Actually, a real player would hate to do nothing else but mashing the Called Shot button...)
By now i have read or thought up a few different possible fixes for the ability, but i am not convinced of either of them.
- Reduce the damage bonus of the ability
- Increase the cooldown of the ability
- Give the target immunity to the ability for 30 seconds
- Disallow useage of the ability if the SL already is in combat.
The first suggestion would get the ability into balance quickly. Unfortunately that's just the kind of nerfing i dislike as it significally decreases the value of the ablitly.
Thesecond suggestion would give it tactical use in an ongoing fight, the SL would have to think when to use it. This seems pretty fine in PvP to me, but would make the ability quite inconvenient to use in PvE fights, where the SL could only mark one target among many.
The third suggestion would help balance things in PvE, but would not resolve the problem at all in PvP, as the one marked player goes down quickly and the next again is not immune.
The fourth suggestion would turn the ability into a pure alpha-strike attack. In PvE the SL would have to stay back, not draw agro and always mark the next target when the previous one is killed. In PvP the SL would have to avoid getting focus from the enemy or getting into any area attack. As soon as the team gets into combat, it'll be somewhat tricky for the SL to still use the ability, but it would be a great opener.
If any of those suggestions is really worth pursuing i am not sure about. I feel that neither of them is really what i want the ability to be, but i know that it will very soon be downgraded, so i guess all we SLs can do is to try to tell the Devs, which way of downgrading we would prefer.
QFE I ama MBH MSL and wouldn't even consider attacking jedi because I know how easily I will die. I can't even get 6k energy resist armor, and my best attack is the embarassingly weak critical shot, anyway I decided to test to see what damage I could do against my jedi friend anyway. He is a Mdefender. I used volley fire, paint target, my pet's level 2 imperiling feint, and called shot, and then was lucky enough to land a critical hit with my advanced critical shot! All of that for a whooping 600 damage. The jedi wasn't buffed at all....
You have nothing to fear from BH SLs - I can guarantee you that, but if you feel the need to fear SLs in case that BHs hire them to keep them buffed for a fight, then I suggest you hire some SLs to follow you around also.
The first strike BH get if used correctly is an extremely powerful tool, you often get BH coming at you fully buffed, food up to the eyeballs and prepped for battle and that is the way the devs saw the BH scaling to the supposed 1.5 x power of jedi.
Unfortunately with SL being available through friends of BH and the buffs not dropping when the TEF is applied there is a loophole. Normally in Overt PVP the opposing side could target the SL to kill them and remove the bonus but due to the TEF not passing on to the SL they are effectivly immune to reprisal and the buffs have no chance of dropping unless the BH dies.
The issue should never be BH having SL in their own templates, thats a personal choice and honestly means nothing, the problem is the grouping of non TEF'ed party's in the jedi BH combat situation.
The only sensible thing to stop SL getting nerfed and stop any imbalance is for SL buffs to drop on the BH tef for both jedi AND bh. If the group is locked out from healing then sustained buffs such as squad leaders should also be removed. Doc buffs are 1 off and require not group or sustained presence, SL buffs are only applied while grouped.
SpunkyKuma wrote:
Grozurr, question is can pups be applied to those "frog" weapons? I've been hearing they can't be puped nor sliced, and the stats are supposadly the same to a weapon on live after a slice and pup infact I have seen HIGHER damage rifles than a 1200+ (like that DP29 or something) that's around 1400 damage HLR, if you think about it the SL mods can make that HLR a scary weapon. I like the changes, but hearing about 1-shot incaps that's happening on TC, I am hoping devs do something right about this before it goes live then nerfing it 5x worse in publish 25 than SL is currently.
If you see any 1400 damage HLRs report the owner because he is definately a hacker - I have a damage capped HLR (which is 1150 btw) and even with a damage capped pup (+35%) it doesn't get to 1400, and btw its worse than that, because the 40 electricity damage isn't effected by the pup or by called shot. I suggest if you want to make up possible scenarios....make sure they at least SEEM possible before you post
Giant2005 wrote:
Oblox wrote:
The thing is SL isnt imblanced in the game as a whole but the BH/Jedi relationship isnt the standard game.
The first strike BH get if used correctly is an extremely powerful tool, you often get BH coming at you fully buffed, food up to the eyeballs and prepped for battle and that is the way the devs saw the BH scaling to the supposed 1.5 x power of jedi.
Unfortunately with SL being available through friends of BH and the buffs not dropping when the TEF is applied there is a loophole. Normally in Overt PVP the opposing side could target the SL to kill them and remove the bonus but due to the TEF not passing on to the SL they are effectivly immune to reprisal and the buffs have no chance of dropping unless the BH dies.
The issue should never be BH having SL in their own templates, thats a personal choice and honestly means nothing, the problem is the grouping of non TEF'ed party's in the jedi BH combat situation.
The only sensible thing to stop SL getting nerfed and stop any imbalance is for SL buffs to drop on the BH tef for both jedi AND bh. If the group is locked out from healing then sustained buffs such as squad leaders should also be removed. Doc buffs are 1 off and require not group or sustained presence, SL buffs are only applied while grouped.
This I could agree with....but in all reality the new SL buffs are just buffs...If SL buffs are to be removed its only fair Doc Buffs and food buffs to be removed also. I do see how the jedi are worried that BHs are going to have greater access to these buffs than the jedi as a BH can just hire a SL to follow him for a few mins until he has his mark and a jedi can't hire a SL to follow him permanently. But like all buffs this is just adding to the benefits of the BHs being the hunters - they have the ability to come more prepared than the jedi. If jedi don't like this fact they shouldn't be targetting SLs who have had to deal with an undeniably crappy role in the game for 2 years and have finally been given a bit of love. If jedi don't like the fact BHs can come more prepared they should be trying to nerf away all buffs/foods in the BH/Jedi conflict.
Like i stated, doc buffs and food buffs are 1 time use and require nothing to keep them active. SL buffs require you to be in range and grouped, now normally in group situations youd be able to heal your groupmates but the jedi/bh tef locks this out so why not the group assisted buffs aswell.
Unfortunately with SL being available through friends of BH and the buffs not dropping when the TEF is applied there is a loophole. Normally in Overt PVP the opposing side could target the SL to kill them and remove the bonus but due to the TEF not passing on to the SL they are effectivly immune to reprisal and the buffs have no chance of dropping unless the BH dies.
Current testing indicates that something like that, SL buffs removed when going into a BH-Jedi conflict, actually already is in place. Different people report different behaviour, so while it is reported, it is not reliably confirmed yet.
Anyways, i feel that a single buff is not that powerful that it requires all the crying around. The big focus of the discussion always is the "one shot incap", which is in no way made by the buffs but is a result from Called Shot. And again, for all those who didn't take the time to read the facts elsewhere in the forum, despite them being found at any corner:
- Called Shot only is very strong when used by a MSL
- Called Shot in functionality is only +5% of damage over two shots. (Yes, one shot is very powerful, but you also use the time for two attacks to do it.)
- Called Shot can only be placed on the Jedi if it's the BH himself who has the MSL in his build.
- A hired SL along with the BH can only smile and wave and do nothing at all... and definitely not lead to those powerful shots.
- And last not least, the mentioned ability already was downgraded a lot, many of the screenshots which are used as "evidence" for the apparent unbalance are from Beta. Doing the same tests with the current state of the ability would lead to quite lower results of damage.
Sylow wrote:
Unfortunately with SL being available through friends of BH and the buffs not dropping when the TEF is applied there is a loophole. Normally in Overt PVP the opposing side could target the SL to kill them and remove the bonus but due to the TEF not passing on to the SL they are effectivly immune to reprisal and the buffs have no chance of dropping unless the BH dies.
Current testing indicates that something like that, SL buffs removed when going into a BH-Jedi conflict, actually already is in place. Different people report different behaviour, so while it is reported, it is not reliably confirmed yet.
Anyways, i feel that a single buff is not that powerful that it requires all the crying around. The big focus of the discussion always is the "one shot incap", which is in no way made by the buffs but is a result from Called Shot. And again, for all those who didn't take the time to read the facts elsewhere in the forum, despite them being found at any corner:
- Called Shot only is very strong when used by a MSL
- Called Shot in functionality is only +5% of damage over two shots. (Yes, one shot is very powerful, but you also use the time for two attacks to do it.)
- Called Shot can only be placed on the Jedi if it's the BH himself who has the MSL in his build.
- A hired SL along with the BH can only smile and wave and do nothing at all... and definitely not lead to those powerful shots.
- And last not least, the mentioned ability already was downgraded a lot, many of the screenshots which are used as "evidence" for the apparent unbalance are from Beta. Doing the same tests with the current state of the ability would lead to quite lower results of damage.
Perfectly said!!! If only they would sticky that to the jedi forums - it might manage to get a couple of them to shut up for a few seconds
Message Edited by Kresh_Azzo on 10-21-2005 10:28 AM
Your forums are goint to get very busy m8s.
Loki got some turrets on the north flank, Scout secures the southern flank. Alien, you check the minefields in front any LiakyK, you poke Darth_Sushi.
Everything ready for battle, let them come... 
Message Edited by Sylow on 10-21-2005 04:33 PM
Sylow wrote:
I thought you volunteered for maximum risk assignments?
Ya I did, but ill fall asleep on this one.
We're doomed! *shocked*
Ya I did, but ill fall asleep on this one.
Sylow wrote:
We're doomed! *shocked*
Ya I did, but ill fall asleep on this one.
Ive been doomed from the start. I played a Wookiee SL for a long time
Tell me I didnt play the hard way!