Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader CU Skill Tree
_scout_
Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:23 am
#27
Kalandra wrote:
...But the thing is, you end up needing Master Marksman to go with Squad leader, just so you can use your nifty new weapons. At novice SL, I can use only the CDEF pistol, have only +5 speed, +5 accuracy, and no specials. Even if the xp is changed to all Combat xp, I will only be able to effectively use one of my new weapons, because all my modifiers and specials come from another profession!
...
That's not confirmed yet.
As at least in the Marksman I can use different specials with different weapons, or said other ways around. Depending on which tree you take first, you get the specials in different order.
We don't know so far if specials from one ranged profession can be used with weapoons from an other ranged profession.
I can remember from the carbineer that there is a special "which can only be used with automatic weapons."
Now what if you had a cert. for an automatic pistol?
p.s.
There was once a friday feature where they talked about different weapons modes which weapons could be set to.
Something like single shot, half auto, full automatic, or single beam, focussed beam or continious beams.
Its gone now (it was the orignially posted with the new factino armor).
Maybe they dropped this idea...
.
Loki_Ashaman
Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:45 am
#28
_scout_ wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
...
But the thing is, you end up needing Master Marksman to go with Squad leader, just so you can use your nifty new weapons. At novice SL, I can use only the CDEF pistol, have only +5 speed, +5 accuracy, and no specials. Even if the xp is changed to all Combat xp, I will only be able to effectively use one of my new weapons, because all my modifiers and specials come from another profession!
...
That's not confirmed yet.
As at least in the Marksman I can use different specials with different weapons, or said other ways around. Depending on which tree you take first, you get the specials in different order.
We don't know so far if specials from one ranged profession can be used with weapoons from an other ranged profession.
I can remember from the carbineer that there is a special "which can only be used with automatic weapons."
Now what if you had a cert. for an automatic pistol?
p.s.
There was once a friday feature where they talked about different weapons modes which weapons could be set to.
Something like single shot, half auto, full automatic, or single beam, focussed beam or continious beams.
Its gone now (it was the orignially posted with the new factino armor).
Maybe they dropped this idea...
.
There was a bug on TC5 that allowed you to use specials you weren't certed for, and the group I was with was interchanging specials and weapons (Torsoshot with rifle, snipershot with pistols, etc.). Any many profs have general speed and accuracy mods - rifleman has enough attack mods you could be effective with just about any ranged weapon.
Masterfish
Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:00 pm
#29
I was seriously thinking to become SL once again, but I cannot use pistols. So should I become Pistoleer just to able to grind Squad Leader and have a carbine E5 certification?! it makes no sense! 
Musicmaestro
Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:42 pm
#30
I made a previous post about this but was directed to this thread so I'll simply repost it here.
With the CU my interest in the SL profession has grown but I see that Pistol is not only the requirement but also the primary XP requirement. Now this doesn't make sense to me for a couple of different reasons. First off in reality a squad leader wouldn't even be issued a pistol let alone use one in combat as they are a defensive weapon. In reality this would be a Rifle or Carbine based profession. Now, this is Star Wars not reality so no need to update me on this fact... as a game balance why make this profession carbine based simply for the fact that smuggler already has pistol requirement?
After reading this thread it seems as if SL is last on the list of professions to be fully thought out.
The best bet would be to remove the Pistol requirements from Marksman(All other combat profs only require 2 trees, SL would then require 3) and keep the Squad Leader XP as SL XP instead of changing it to Pistol xp. This would allow players from various ranged professions to benefit from the different certifications.
At the very least remove the Carbine/Rifle certs from SL and give them to Carb/Rifle respectively instead of letting these weapon types be wasted and unused. (You don't find Rifles in the Pistoleer tree do you?)
With the CU my interest in the SL profession has grown but I see that Pistol is not only the requirement but also the primary XP requirement. Now this doesn't make sense to me for a couple of different reasons. First off in reality a squad leader wouldn't even be issued a pistol let alone use one in combat as they are a defensive weapon. In reality this would be a Rifle or Carbine based profession. Now, this is Star Wars not reality so no need to update me on this fact... as a game balance why make this profession carbine based simply for the fact that smuggler already has pistol requirement?
After reading this thread it seems as if SL is last on the list of professions to be fully thought out.
The best bet would be to remove the Pistol requirements from Marksman(All other combat profs only require 2 trees, SL would then require 3) and keep the Squad Leader XP as SL XP instead of changing it to Pistol xp. This would allow players from various ranged professions to benefit from the different certifications.
At the very least remove the Carbine/Rifle certs from SL and give them to Carb/Rifle respectively instead of letting these weapon types be wasted and unused. (You don't find Rifles in the Pistoleer tree do you?)
Kilun
Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:40 pm
#31
Musicmaestro wrote:
I made a previous post about this but was directed to this thread so I'll simply repost it here.
With the CU my interest in the SL profession has grown but I see that Pistol is not only the requirement but also the primary XP requirement. Now this doesn't make sense to me for a couple of different reasons. First off in reality a squad leader wouldn't even be issued a pistol let alone use one in combat as they are a defensive weapon. In reality this would be a Rifle or Carbine based profession. Now, this is Star Wars not reality so no need to update me on this fact... as a game balance why make this profession carbine based simply for the fact that smuggler already has pistol requirement?
After reading this thread it seems as if SL is last on the list of professions to be fully thought out.
The best bet would be to remove the Pistol requirements from Marksman(All other combat profs only require 2 trees, SL would then require 3) and keep the Squad Leader XP as SL XP instead of changing it to Pistol xp. This would allow players from various ranged professions to benefit from the different certifications.
At the very least remove the Carbine/Rifle certs from SL and give them to Carb/Rifle respectively instead of letting these weapon types be wasted and unused. (You don't find Rifles in the Pistoleer tree do you?)
I beg to differ on that, go read a few books on rescues, perfect example is a book My Hitch in Hell: Bataan Death March, Lt.Col, Henry Mucci's, the leader's weapon of choice was sidearms, not a BAR or Thompson.
Also, check out Clone Wars, one of the two SLs, I believe the main ones is pistols, and all throughout history pistols have been leaders weapon of choice.
Musicmaestro
Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:21 pm
#33
Hehe, I don't mean to pull rank but I'm a retired Infantry Officer and I can guarantee you that a pistol is not the weapon of a Squad Leader. Let's break this down further....
A Squad Leader is the leader of a unit of troops numbering from 8 to 10. These units are named squads or sections and 3 of these squads comprise a platoon. The leader of a squad/section is generally a Sergeant but can also be a Master Corporal (Americans have different titles for similiar ranks). Both of these ranks are NCM(non-commissioned members), that is, they are not officers so your Lt. Col. reference doesn't compare.
Also, Master Corporals and Sergeants in the infantry are not issued pistols. There is no point as a pistol is a defensive weapon with an effective range ~50m. Considering that Squad Leaders/Section commanders are combatants themselves unlike officers they are required to play a role in the effective combat strength of their unit and lay down fire.
Squad Leaders are not REMF's (If you know this reference you know enough to agree with me) they're the guys who know what's going on and how to get he job done. They're the backbone of military leadership and should be built along these lines.
Now, officers are an entirely different breed. A single Lieutenant (a commissioned member) would command a platoon consisting of 3 squads with each squad being lead by the squad leaders I've already explained. A Platoon will often also have a weapons detachment consisting of mortars, MGs, and AA(Eryx). Now, infantry officers are trained in the use of a pistol but again, it's such a useless weapon in the field. Considering that an assault rifle(NATO standard 5.56mm) is a much higher velocity round and has an effective range of 400m(squad effective 500m)the rifle is the logical choice. But with officers they're not even going to be shooting a rifle let alone a pistol because as soon as they do they loose sight of the larger scale of the battle and focus on their individual targets. The weapon of an officer is not his sidearm but rather it's his troops.
Another aspect of carrying pistols as opposed to a rifle and why I wouldn't be caught dead using one was that by carrying a pistol you're painting an "I'm an officer" target on yourself which is a sure way to get yourself killed. Any Platoon or Company commander would tell you the same thing. Now, higher ranking officers who sit well back of the combat zones might be carrying pistols but I'll guarantee you that no Lt. Col. is within 50m of combat and if he is then a single pistol sure as hell isn't going to help the sorry situation that unit is in.
A Squad Leader is the leader of a unit of troops numbering from 8 to 10. These units are named squads or sections and 3 of these squads comprise a platoon. The leader of a squad/section is generally a Sergeant but can also be a Master Corporal (Americans have different titles for similiar ranks). Both of these ranks are NCM(non-commissioned members), that is, they are not officers so your Lt. Col. reference doesn't compare.
Also, Master Corporals and Sergeants in the infantry are not issued pistols. There is no point as a pistol is a defensive weapon with an effective range ~50m. Considering that Squad Leaders/Section commanders are combatants themselves unlike officers they are required to play a role in the effective combat strength of their unit and lay down fire.
Squad Leaders are not REMF's (If you know this reference you know enough to agree with me) they're the guys who know what's going on and how to get he job done. They're the backbone of military leadership and should be built along these lines.
Now, officers are an entirely different breed. A single Lieutenant (a commissioned member) would command a platoon consisting of 3 squads with each squad being lead by the squad leaders I've already explained. A Platoon will often also have a weapons detachment consisting of mortars, MGs, and AA(Eryx). Now, infantry officers are trained in the use of a pistol but again, it's such a useless weapon in the field. Considering that an assault rifle(NATO standard 5.56mm) is a much higher velocity round and has an effective range of 400m(squad effective 500m)the rifle is the logical choice. But with officers they're not even going to be shooting a rifle let alone a pistol because as soon as they do they loose sight of the larger scale of the battle and focus on their individual targets. The weapon of an officer is not his sidearm but rather it's his troops.
Another aspect of carrying pistols as opposed to a rifle and why I wouldn't be caught dead using one was that by carrying a pistol you're painting an "I'm an officer" target on yourself which is a sure way to get yourself killed. Any Platoon or Company commander would tell you the same thing. Now, higher ranking officers who sit well back of the combat zones might be carrying pistols but I'll guarantee you that no Lt. Col. is within 50m of combat and if he is then a single pistol sure as hell isn't going to help the sorry situation that unit is in.
Message Edited by Musicmaestro on 04-04-2005 09:24 PM
irott
Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:28 pm
#34
The argument is irrelevant.
The intimidator pistol was the only cert we had in the initial drafts. Myself and others fought to get certs for the other two branches of the marksman tree and we got them. The problem is in the xp.
Our whole argument is that SL is a hybrid profession which is supposed to be compatible with any type of ranged profession. By forcing us to go pistoleer (Or at least up the pistol line of marksman, since only using novice marksman pistol skills is not going to be very effective), we waste that time we grinded up it only to drop it for either carbineer or rifleman.
_scout_
Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:54 pm
#35
What about make it all Combat XP?
It would unterline the fact that SL is "the" combat profession and you offer it to all other professions even those who will not benefit from the certifications.
If somebody would want to like a Commandoor even a Melee SL he would have to do the same grind as a carbineer/riflman.
And is SL xp realy dead or still to be discussed ?
The rate SL XP is gained in live is certainly to high, but I think SL xp should only be earned while grouped and should relate to the group size.
SL XP should be something related to combat xp : SL XP = group size * (combat xp earned by the SL only)
Since groups are currently limited to 8ppl the insane numbers of SL xp gained in larger groups should not be the problem.
The larger the group, the more coordination the SL should do, the less he should fight/deal damage, the lower his own combat XP would be anyway, which is compensated by the multiplier of the group size.
.
It would unterline the fact that SL is "the" combat profession and you offer it to all other professions even those who will not benefit from the certifications.
If somebody would want to like a Commandoor even a Melee SL he would have to do the same grind as a carbineer/riflman.
And is SL xp realy dead or still to be discussed ?
The rate SL XP is gained in live is certainly to high, but I think SL xp should only be earned while grouped and should relate to the group size.
SL XP should be something related to combat xp : SL XP = group size * (combat xp earned by the SL only)
Since groups are currently limited to 8ppl the insane numbers of SL xp gained in larger groups should not be the problem.
The larger the group, the more coordination the SL should do, the less he should fight/deal damage, the lower his own combat XP would be anyway, which is compensated by the multiplier of the group size.
.
ZallusNuranxis
Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:03 am
#36
irott wrote:Yes make us SL or Combat xp for all 4 lines please!!
The argument is irrelevant.
The intimidator pistol was the only cert we had in the initial drafts. Myself and others fought to get certs for the other two branches of the marksman tree and we got them. The problem is in the xp.
Landorin
Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:45 am
#37
Yeah, what happened to the old idea to keep the SL xp as requirement but give less SL xp than now (when it only takes a few hours to master the profession)?
I always liked the SL XP concept, it required a group (the bigger the better) and you had to kill mobs along with the group (instead of standing around), thus you also had a socializing and grouping aspect for getting xp (no other profession has this as much as SL does). I never enjoyed grinding a profession as much as SL due to the way the SL XP concept works, it was so much fun doing that with a group while killing stuff (reminds me of the old hunting groups in swg beta). Now this will turn into the same boring weapon xp grind stuff most professions have, we'll lose an interesting, fun and socializing way of mastering a profession.
Why changing all this now into dumb (and possibly soloing) weapons xp (and yeah, I dislike the slice xp -> pistol xp change either although I'm not even a smuggler), Irott?
Was that "SL XP -> weapons xp" a dev idea? What do you say about that change, Irott? From the way I read it, it sounds like you don't mind that the concept of SL XP gaining is gone but that it got replaced by *pistol* xp. I don't get why you as the Squad Leader (which indicates a grouping profession) correspondent only seems to care that we got the wrong weapon xp instead of caring that our fun and socializing way of SL xp gaining is totally lost in the CU?
I always liked the SL XP concept, it required a group (the bigger the better) and you had to kill mobs along with the group (instead of standing around), thus you also had a socializing and grouping aspect for getting xp (no other profession has this as much as SL does). I never enjoyed grinding a profession as much as SL due to the way the SL XP concept works, it was so much fun doing that with a group while killing stuff (reminds me of the old hunting groups in swg beta). Now this will turn into the same boring weapon xp grind stuff most professions have, we'll lose an interesting, fun and socializing way of mastering a profession.
Why changing all this now into dumb (and possibly soloing) weapons xp (and yeah, I dislike the slice xp -> pistol xp change either although I'm not even a smuggler), Irott?
Was that "SL XP -> weapons xp" a dev idea? What do you say about that change, Irott? From the way I read it, it sounds like you don't mind that the concept of SL XP gaining is gone but that it got replaced by *pistol* xp. I don't get why you as the Squad Leader (which indicates a grouping profession) correspondent only seems to care that we got the wrong weapon xp instead of caring that our fun and socializing way of SL xp gaining is totally lost in the CU?
Message Edited by Landorin on 04-05-2005 04:05 PM
Masterfish
Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:43 am
#38
Landorin wrote:
Yeah, what happened to the old idea to keep the SL xp as requirement but give less SL xp than now (when it only takes a few hours to master the profession)?
I always liked the SL XP concept, it required a group (the bigger the better) and you had to kill mobs along with the group (instead of standing around).
/agree
That's the way... why should I need Combat/Rifle/Pistol/Carbine Xp to improve my SL skills? If I want to be a Squad Leader I should collect Leadership Experience just killing enemies with as group leader!