Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Regarding the Inadvertent SL XP Change on 10/22
Raiff,
The requirement that the SL does at least SOME damage to XP, is a good way to discourage AFK xp farming, but I'm not sure that I like it any better than the current system because it's too flat.
Let's look at the numbers however:
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Using Your Example: a=SL does 0 damage, b=everyone does equal damage, c=SL does 100% dmg
Giant Canyon Krayt CL 275, gives 192,335 weapons/19,234combat. (962 combat xp for each person)
Old system: A.0 x 20 x 2= 0 B.avg.962 x 20 x 2 = 38,467 C. 19,234 x 20 x 2 = 769,340
New system: A. 19,234, B. 962 x 19 = 18,278 C. 0
Your system: A. 0. B. 275x50x200% = 27,500 C. 275x50x200% = 27,500
My Suggestion: A. 19,234 x 19 = 365,446 (also 0 if you don't contribute)B. 365,436 C. 365,436
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ANALYSIS: Previously, if a Squad Leader was able to Solo a Krayt Dragon and could get 19 pet/people to stand and watch, he could earn enough to learn any 2 boxes of Squad Leader. Under the new system, regardless of how many people it takes to kill the Krayt, you get the combat xp minus your contribution and would have to kill about 19-20 Giant Canyon Krayts to get a Squad Leader box. With your system, if you and a buddy can kill a Krayt you're only getting 2750 Squad Leader xp, and need about 100 more of the beasties to get a box of Squad Leader. With mine, if you and your group's combined effort can take down a Krayt, you've gotten about enough to learn one box....which, IMHO, seems about right (or maybe a bit high)as long as we implement a AFK prevention mechanism of some sort.
The biggest issue that I have with your system is honestly using the CL in the calculation... Since the amount of xp that the creature ranges from about 30-100x the CL, I feel like you're unnecessarilly trying to reinvent the wheel. If, instead of using the CL you simply used the Weapons XP, you'd get the same results as my formula. 
(Instead, your numbers are more like a semi-nerfed combat xp and would require renumerating the skilltree accordingly)
Regarding the issue of getting xp for using your abilities: It is true that most combat professions don't get xp for using their skills, but support professions DO, and Squad Leader is a HYBRID like Combat Medic, Smuggler, and Bounty Hunter who do receive xp for using their skills. (Of the other 2 hybrids: Commando is a pure combat hybrid and does not getting use xp, and Bio-Engineer is a pure support hybrid but does get use xp) Also, to make Squad Leader you must complete 2 Trees of Scout..and EVERY other profession that extends from Scout gets xp for using their skills. It's only us poor Squad Leaders left in the cold in this regard.
Hey guys.
Lot's of nice insightful posts, but I don't see us coming up with any consensus and we need something quick so that we can get back to some sort of realistic XP formula. Maybe we can start picking a few of the best and take votes. Capn' maybe pick the two or three you like bestlist them in a new post and we'll start voting so you can get the message to the generals.
Personally,the only thing I didn't like about the old system was that my SL XP wasreliant on my damage. as a pea-shootin' CH it was never anything close to what my Commandos did. I suggest that the formula remain as it was, however, instead of using my combat XP, take the higest combat XP earnedfrom thekill. Then we average just a bit higher and don't feel that we have to do all the damage, but aren't nerfed if we do.
I believe it used to be: #of group memebers * 2 * SL's combat XP (?)
my suggestion: #of group memebers * 2 * Highest member's combat XP
The problem I have with all of the CH, medic, etc. bonuses is that it gums up the formula too much and I don't think it can realistically be implemeted. Leave pets in as players since you have to control them like a member, reduce it if you HAVE to, and move on. Of course I support pets adding to the SL, being a pet handler, because it's the only way I can take out most baddies anyway.
I'd like to see some bonuses if we use our abilities successfully, i.e. 20 pts here and there,but for the most part the old calculation wasn't really that bad other thanrequiring us to be big damage dealers. I highly recommend thesimplest solution. Our biggest problem here is the diversity of the SL class. we have SL doctors, TKA's, bounty hunters, commandos, rangers, CH's, basically everything. We need a simple formula that alienates as little as possible. It shouldn't be to hard, this is America home of the lowest common denominator.
Comments?
Occamz SL extrodinaire od Tarquinas and beyond!!!!
SL XP = (Sum of group combat XP) * number of members
This will give about the same values as before.
The pet issue I'm torn on. If CH got combat XP for pets, then I'd say only PCs. I believe CH should get combat XP for pets. The idea of a CH is that their pet is a weapon. (No, I'm not a CH)
PS: Medics get combat XP for healing while in combat. This is both good for the healers, and good for SL.
One, isn't the point of this threat is to sumbit a new SL Experience system? So yes we're all try to reinvent the wheel. and the biggest issue i've seen from Squad leaders is that the exp is based off of how muchdamage theydo. Refering to support classes, as you called Squad leader.CH is the only class similar to Squad leader base on the fact it trees all require the same exp. The other have Mixed exp, For combat medic they have medical crafting and medical experience and only get them from Making and using an item. All classes have 1 method of getting Experience. Other than CH. They get it from taming but majority of it from Fighting not to mention it slower going getting CH exp than it is SL exp. If you give SL the ability to get say 100 EXP for using ability the only way to stop AFKING is make it so a team member has to be in battle at the time for you to get exp. But then again this can be easily use to promote afking, Since you just get 2 people to duel each other with fists 1 in your team, while you macro SL commands, Every so often you'll be gaining exp for not being at your PC. Mean while the 2 dueling each other with fists will be doing so little damage to each other their natural Regeneration rate will take care of the damage. Frankly Giving SL experience for using their ability is just a hassle. To many point where people can exploit it in some form. Only option left would be to give a 1% bonus exp for every command used during a fight, and if you're fighting more than 1 creature, the bonus keep accumulating until the battle is over. The the only way we'd be able to apply Exp for using Squad leader ability in the form of bonuses, and not hard experience. (and by hard experience i mean, Instantly gain 100 xp or so for using the command), Only reason that Giving CHes 2 method of gaining EXP works is because there no way to AFK macro taming the same creature over and over again. I can not see any method being able to be implemented that will stop AFKing if you give SL hard exp for using abilities. Also from the fact that SL is/was the easist class to get a lot of EXP for quickly make the point of do we really need the exp from using out abilites? and the only Command Bio-engineers get Exp for is DNA sampling and that EXP only applies to one tree. and the fact you call A Bio-engineer "Support" Is wrong since they aren't required to be around to heal a pet. Unlike medics and docs you must have the skill in order to heal a person with Stimpack, and one and their mother can go purchase Pet stimpack and use them without require BE skills. They are more of Crafter/supplier but not support not required/useful at all for battle.
I always thought Volatris' first stab at it was pretty good:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=974
Flookmastah wrote:
hey Cap'n... whatever you suggest to them, make sure they also take into account the problem of hunting with folks who are capped and don't recieve any combat xp. Since that seems to be a common theme in most of the calcs suggested, we have to make sure the system knows how to work around it in case nobody in the group actually GETS combat xp! hehe
From the "What's on the plate for tomorrow (22 Oct)..." post
Blair wrote:
Squad Leader: Fixed issues that would cause commands to not work correctly and XP to cap lower than it should.
I don't know anyone who's maxed Weapon or Combat XP, but my guess is that it's already fixed.
That was along the lines I was thinking.. What about SL's pet counts as 1 group member (as s/he controls that pet fully) and all other pets count as partial group members or not at all (as the SL has little to do with controlling these group members). That shouldn't be too hard to code at all.
I'd like to suggest that pets only count half as much as players do for determining SL XP. For example 2 pets equals 1 human player or something like that to encourage mostly player groups.
To add my two cents Capt'n, I'm definitely with Thulium. I would like to add some possibly complex suggestions to the mix though. What if Pet CH level determined the value to a group? Perhapse a level 50 could be equal to one player. A level 25 would only be worth 1/2 a humanoid. The next suggestion I have is to put the Medic XP idea to rest. Medics serve their purpose in a group and their presence is felt regardless of an XP bonus. Their contribution to the group will be to keep your other sources of XP (a.k.a. squadmembers) on their feet. Their purpose is served and though you may not see their contributions directly result in additional XP, I think being able to complete your missions without having to turn back due to attrition is reward enough.
Peace
OK, let's see if I remember this correctly. I did this while at work, and left the formula there, so I'm doing this from memory. (which is tough since I've been at the bar for the past 4 hours)
First off, calculate the pointsNOT at the end of the battle, but when someone enters or leaves the group, this allows for medic and survival XP (which both help the group). Since the formula I'll propose is kinda complicated, it'll cut down on processing time if it's only done when someone enters or leaves the group. And it will depend on the group size,and it will allow accounting of healing, and Survival Points.Also pets and NPC's will account for less of the total, and I'll take into account the AFK problem.
Second, there should be a point addition for actually using your squad leader skills. I propose SLCMDPoints = #CommandsGiven*10*GroupSize. So, in the period between someone entering or leaving the group, if you enter a command, such as Rally, or Steady Aim, or whatever, if you have 10 people in the group, you get 100 points of SLCMDPoints for each command you give. (This will matter in your SL point calculation below)
Third, for the total Squad Leader XP Points received, it will depend on several factors, including: Total Combat XP, Total Medical XP,Total SURVIVAL XP, and Total SLCMDPoints XP, as well as your PERSONAL Combat XP, Medical XP,SLCMDPoints XP, and Cloning subtractions. The formula is kinda lengthy, but since we have a profession that requires a complicated group effort, our XP point should be as complicated. And if someone had to clone, you didn't do your job right, and you should lose points. Ressurections (resucitations or whatever they are) don't count towards cloning, they just add to the medic XP.
And Last, it will depend on your contribution to the group as a whole. If you're AFK the whole time, or do very little, it will take away from your total SL XP.
Since you can only get Squad Leader Points when LEADINGa group, I won't take a reduction in PCs when calculating the SL XP Points.
So My formula is as follows: (which will invole only about 5 lines of C code to calculate, more for keeping track of the variables)
SLXP = ((Total Combat XP + Total Medical XP +Total Survival XP + Total SLCMDPoints) * ((PCs*0.5) + (NPCs * 0.25)) * ( ((Personal CombatXP + Personal Medical XP + SLCMDPoints) / ((Total Combat XP + Total Medical XP) / (GroupSize )) )) or(1) [whichever is less]
- (#Clones * 25)
Which is alot, but it adds in Medical XP,Survival XP (for healing wounds while in camp), your use of Squad leader commands, your actual participation in the group, and subtracts how many times someone actually dies (meaning has to clone). The less you participate, the less squad leader points you get. Let me try to explain.
For example, if you have 10 people (PCs) in your group, and 5 NPCs, being pets or faction soldiers, your PCs*0.5 + NPCs *0.25 would be 6.25. Which is your first multiplier of XP points. Yes that includes you.
If no one clones, which means no one dies, and a doctor is not able to resurrect you, or resucitate you, I can't remember which it is (I'm only a master medic), your subtractions 0.
Now you've been playing for a while ane someone leaves the group (or joins doesn't matter), and your total combat XP is 5000, your total medical XP is 500,your Total Survival XP is 500, and you gave 2 Squad leader Commands. The first section of your calculation is 5000+500+500+300=6,300 (The 300 came from 2*10*15, which is 300). The second part of your calculation is your group, which is10*0.5 + 5*0.25, is 6.25. Your total is now 39,375. (Remember this is when someone leaves or enters the group, not when a target is killed) The last section is based on how much as a squad leader you actually helped, being you helped in combat, or by healing someone, or by issuing commands to bolster the group. You only have to do at least your share ofthe combat and medical XP of everyone else to get the full squad leader XP points (sincemost experiencedplayers are more powerful in gaining Combat XP then us lowly squad leaders this seems fair). So if you got 200 Combat XP points, and 100 Medical XP Points, plus your 300 Squad leader commands XP, you have 600 personal XP points. Total Combat XP + Total Medic XP is 5500, divided by the groupsize (15) is 366. So 600/366 is 1.63. Since this is more than 1, the total for the last multiplier is 1. Which gives you a total of39,375 Squad leader points. Before if you had a group of 15 players, and helped in killingfive 1000 XP point targets, and your share was 333 combat XP points, your total would be 333*2*15 which is 9,900 SL points.
It's a start, and it adds in everything for what you need to help your group, healing, combat, bonuses for issuing SL commands (except for /sysgroup), and survival, and stops you from being AFK. If you are AFK, you get a decrease in your SL XP (ie if you did only 100 Combat XP and 100 Medic XP your total would be only 200 Personal XP, which would result in a multiplier of 0.55, to reduce your SL points by 45% giving you only 21,656 SL points for the same period. If you have no input, then your total is 0 SL points.
I know the numbers have to be tweaked, it's only a first draft, but the base can stay the same while the multipliers are worked out. Work on it, I'll look at it again tomorrow to refine it.
Mavhawk Lounger
Wanderhome (usually Coronet, on Corellia)
Novice Squad Leader 0/0/0/1
Master Medic
Novice Rifleman
Some of these formulas are great, but let me just make a quick vote for taking away the requirement for the SL to do damage himself. I have the most fun and am able to effect the most control when I stand off and lead the battle..i.e. manage the action. Having to make sure I am doing my own shooting takes away from my ability to maintain the big picture.
So whatever we get, it should be based on the groups combat effectiveness and have little to nothing to do with how much damage the SL personnally does.
Kylekatemikaela
Corbantis- Ranger/Rifleman/but most importantly SQUAD LEADER
I spoke with our Dev and he, too, was wondering how it slipped in too. Remember: a dev is not the same as a programer (at least not in SOE's case). He also stated he will mention this tommorow to them. I was then asked how this has affected SL XP and I replied:
"Adversely and negatively, to say the least. Not to mention it promotes a sick amount of AFK SL xp. I dunno how this snuck in there."
this right here is the problem not only do we not have a say at all but nor do you or even the dev the programmers are going to do whatever they feel like or are being told to it is as if none of us have a say
the changes they make to this game arent the issue it is how all this goes down
this was a "invisible fix" the even the devs nor the correspondant for this class were aware of somehow this seems way wrong to me and to all the sl who are thinkning this is a sl problem its not i have floated from one class to another the whole time i have been playing and this "inivisible fix" type of thing has chased me away from several classes
i am going to be taking a break form this game for a while ....not quitting in hopes things will pan out for all classes i wish all you of you the best of luck
also alot of great xp ideas are expressed in this thread an i hope for hte sake of hte game they do not fall on deaf ears (not meaning you vemnox considering you are basically a aplayer too you jsut have a line of communication with the devs not that oyu have the abiltiy to change anything on oyur own)