Squad Leader Archive
Thread: I think Squad Leader is fine the way it is
gordon_wood wrote:
Perhaps as a class we should all be less concerned with what game-given abilities we have or will have, and should be far more concerned with the actual business and practice of leadership.
Then why even have a SL profession in the first place? Its the first question I asked myself when I heard about SL, and I still am not sure this profession makes any sense to this day.
Let me try and restate my question in another way. How can we measure leadership ability in this game? If we are going to have a leaderhip class like SL, then we need some form of measurement for progression. I have suggested SL mission terminals like BH but for groups of people. Missions that would test a personsgroup leadership abilities and be required for progression in the class.
In EQ you gained respect as a leader by taking on tougher and tougher assignments. When we first did the planes, it was like wow, you broke into Fear? Sweet. You cleared the first floor of Hate and killed the Maestro, wow. You could be any class, it did not really matter. It was all about leadership.
In SWG there is no real content worth speaking of. We have cleared the Night Sisters camp in Dathomir with a half dozen people, big deal.Having a MSL title means nothing IMO. There is currently no real leadership challenge in this game, full stop.
If they can not come up with a way to measure SL leadership ability to ensure that the title means something, then they should simply do without a leadership class. Instead they should rename the professionto Combat Support Specialist, take off the Group Leadership requirement for skills and exp progression, and then tweak it as appropriate.
Our profession has got to be the least thought out profession in the game right now.
What? Are you even reading what you are writing? We should be less concerned with the abilities we get and more concerned with our own personal leadership abilities? This is a video game character and I'll take some kickass abilities thank you because I can lead whether I'm a novice scout or entertainer dancing in a pink tu-tu.
I want the skill points I spend to be ultra-powerful. I want people to say "holy cow, they have a Master Squad Leader, watch out!" Instead they say "Holy cow, they have a master squad leader, look at em crawl!" Its a joke man. The CLASS is a joke. My guildmates (finally founding the guild tomorrow) would have me be the leader regardless of the class. If I surrender it all they will still have me handle the invites, tactics, reprimands etc. I don't need SL to do that. I need SL to give me abilities that make THEM kick ass. Not make me kick ass by using them. I admit having a group peace would have come in handy tonight. But "come in handy" and kickass are worlds apart. Give me some "come in handy" if you sprinkle in a lot of kickass. We don't have any kickass and we aren't getting any kickass. I want some kickass to go with my natural abilities. My video game character doesn't care if I can even aim a gun in RL, entertainer doesn't care if you can dance in RL, chef doesn't care if you can cook in RL. SL needs us to be able to lead, but we need it to be able to kickass.
Give mesome kickass!
/mood embarrased
Doh!
My original post on this is almost a month old, didn't expect it to get revived 
. Also, just to be clear, midway thru the thread, I reversed my position on the need for change.
Gordon, I agree with the idea of rather being respected for who you are rather than what you are.
But, somewhere in the thread above, i think ESD, said something like...(paraphrasing) Yes, you are an effective leader with real life leadership skills. But given the current profession skillsets, aren't you equally effective at leading as a Nov SL as at a Master SL (because the skills brought to the table at master are nearly negligible)? If so, why wouldn't those skill points be better spent elsewhere (Pistoleer, CH, etc?) thus you bring additional firepower/tanks/other to the table, and can still use your "real" leadership skills to the same effect.
Point being why, other than the titles or a personal goal, would someone want to master squad leader. And more importantly, why would anyone else feel the need to group with and be lead by a suqad leader? I see the importance of that question more now a month later. My hope is that the new skills (I'll harp on Offensive and Defensive stance some more here 
) provide that incentive.
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Travawan, this is a great idea (and yes many others have said so as well, just not as succinctly), and I do hope it gets changed to this:
"The closest we should come to this is "SL wants you to attack this, press space to accept new target"...
"Teamwork should be a product of the players themselves, not the game mechanic."
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Shuyunh,
I did reverse my position after the initial post, I see the need now for changes. However, I still feel strongly that in the grand scheme of things when a random master squad leader walks into a random cantina the rarity of such should command some respect and perhaps awe from the regular folks(more than say a random master creature handler, maybe as much or more than a random master BH?) And I do fear that the proposed changes will draw "undesirables" into the profession that will procede to grief people and give out generally bad PR for the profession as a whole. At this point I can only hope natural selection weeds them out.
And I really do hope they add much more extremely hard content as you have described before, Missions to fascilitate that would be great!
and to "Well, hopefully we will get a more personal response from the developers some time soon." Amen to that!
Thanks,
-Psquire
DiLune wrote:
Give mesome kickass!
Haha, right on! Couldn't agree more! This folksis the bottom line.
-Psquire
I started playing with the idea that I would go SL, but now that I am almost a Master Marksman and Master Scout, I am re-evaluating.
I checked out what skills I would get if I learned Novice SL, which I am now able to do, as of last night. We get SYS MESSAGE.
That's it.
Novice SL gets no real game abilities or certificationsand no skill mods, personal or group.
And that would make a Novice SL desirable to a group how?
EVERY other single ELITE Profession gets multiple abilities, certifications,and schematicsand/or skill mods with their novice box. (This has probably been noted before in this forum, but I'm explaining my problem.)
I thought 175,000 points to get one single additional ability with no additional skill mods was ridiculous, combined with the fact that some of the abilities in question are basically useless for one reason or another. However, I will take the word of the Masters that with a decent group you can level quickly. I had heard that SL XP was tied to the combat XP that the SL himself earned, and that sounded extremely slow unless there is a sizable group multiplier bonus.
At this point, I have serious reservations about becoming an SL. Please bear with me.
If I am the type that wants to be a group leader, then it makes sense I would consider SL as my Elite profession. But the efficiency expert in me wants to run the numbers and do comparisons. Do I really do the group any good as a Novice SL? Would I be a better group member as a NovicePistoleer/CH with a decent pet? After all, IF effectiveness as a group leader is really all about leadership skills that are independent of Profession, then it only makes sense to make my character as elite as possible in key combat areas, and MAYBE spend points on Novice SL only for the SYS MESSAGE.
Isn't this why there are so few Squad Leaders? There is no return on investment (of skill points), from the Novice Box through to Master, according to the knowledgeable critiques of the Profession as it currently works.
If I enter an Elite Profession that monopolizes my skill points, shouldn't it be UBER in SOME way? I DON'T mean that it should be the ultimate combat class. As long as Pistoleer or CH or BH is the ultimate combat class, the l33ts will go there and leave SL alone. But it should essentially be an Elite, Elite class. Q3POhas already stated that there will be some Double Elite Professions, starting with Urban Planner. Where can you go with the few skill points you have left overafter you make Master SL??? Or do they make the Double Elite Profession of the Squad Leader line only require 15 points total? More likely, there will be no such animal, making SL even less desirable.
There should be some tangible reason for people to group with an SL starting with Novice, even if it is only one or two +5s to skills or a low-level, but obviously useful and almost always successful, group buff. I've been playing this long, based in Anchorhead on Chilastra, and I have only ever seen a novice SL nametagONCE, to say nothing of masters. I have NEVER heard anyone asking for an SL for their group, and I've NEVER seen or been in a group that was headed by an SL. (Granted, I'm not in a PA, but that is still pretty d-a-m-n-ing.) Maybe one reason people on Chilastra don't ask for an SL is that they are less ignorant than most, knowing that low-level SLs don't have any tangible group benefits, or maybe it's that they know theycould /shout for SLs all day and not get a single response, exept ridicule from others. Or maybe we group far less than most people on other servers. I don't know.
As for UBER SL, I already said I don't mean combat or killing power, and I surely DON'T mean more options to micro-manage the group! The best group leader skills might actually fall in the area of Delegation of Power. Very few people have the combination of keyboarding skills, leadership skills, and multi-tasking ability to successfully micro-manage a large combat group. I know I don't. Even in the real world where the keyboard interface is not a problem, even small combat groups have a leadership hierarchy, i.e., squad leaders, sergeants, and a lieutenant. So the most effective group leadersprobably don't try to do everything themselves, and they don't leave some things undone because they just can't get to it. They specify certain people to be the masters of certain tasks, and then concentrate on the overall group objectives. At the least, specify certain individuals to handle looting and harvesting turns. Specify one person to be in charge of pulling or combat initiation, if this isn't your main thing. In some cases, group movement will be delegated to the person who best knows the given lay of the land. Depending on the mission of the group, there may unique tasks such as advance scouting that may require a mini-group in itself. The larger the group, the greater the need for specializations and delegation. Obviously, more experienced group members require less micromanagement, but it's always good to have a good heirarchy in place from the beginning of the mission. And members of a group will have a better experience if they are more directly involved in the actions and success of the group.
Given that delegation is the best approach, and more experienced group members require less micromanagement in any case, shouldn't at least some of the SL abilities facilitate this play-style? Instead of facilitating more micro-management, new additions to SL should assist in the delegation of responsibility. Perhaps an in-game ability to flag a group member with a "promotion" or designationof different types. An icon badgeoruniquehighlight would then set that group member apart, notifying everyone that this person is in charge of loot, harvesting, or combat initiation, for examples, or that a certain person is 'second-in-command' in the case you are incapped. (A negative badge, somewhat like a demerit system could also be implemented, allowing people to have a visible indication that they are in danger of being booted from the group due to their behavior or incompetence.) Building this into the game might also encourage better group leadership by SLs who don't delegate anything. These capablilities should start at the Novice Box along with SYS MESSAGE, making SL have more of a visible impact from the start.
Another cool idea that should start at the Novice Box and grow as the SL advances is a Reward system. The Novice SL has the ability to hand out rewards to group members based on the total kills of the group up to present. So if the group kills one normal squall, a Novice SL has a few xp points to hand out to the MVP of the group. A Master SL would have more points. After killing a large number of MOBs or a very powerful MOB, this reward would be correspondingly larger, based on the total group kills as you go along. The squad leader could either reward the most significant contributor or contributors, the newbiest member, his best bud, the most selflessmember,or split it equally with the group. It would be his responsibility, and perhaps his curse, but I think it would also be a much more visible benefit than stealth stat bonuses that don't even come into play until you have earned several hundred-thousand XP. Another idea along this line is that an SL might have a screen where he can perhaps take the accumulated group reward points, his own faction points, or perhaps even creditsand buy medals or badges which can then be bestowed on one or more group members, thus having a more permanent impact on a person's character. Imagine examining someone, once SWG Devs implement it, and seeing an accumulaion of bronze, silver, and gold stars for meritorious conduct in a group. If you saw that, you would have no hesitation grouping with such a person!
Is there already a discussion on good group leadership techniques and how they might be better facilitated by in-game mechanisms? If so, I would love for some one to direct me to it.
The original poster needs to veer away from the we dont need skills to succeed as a leader krap. I know what you are saying, BUT BASICALLY YOU SAY WE DONT NEED A SQUAD LEADER CLASS AT ALL!! And then I ask what is the point of investing my time into SL? What is the point of making this post or even having bandwith wasted for the SL proffession board?
I seriously dont want to run around like a dork with a hollow class name over my head thats says "look I'm a good leader but a gimp as a proffession". I played a bard in EQ, one of the best support characters in EQ. I was good, and being good is a must with that type of character.Everyone knew what a bad bard could do to a party in EQ.Same will still apply to SL, who despite the name is really a support character who offers no direct contribution to the group.
You want to prove yourself as a leader and become an elite leader, then pick any class and make a name for yourself, in a game like this your repetiiton as a player will carry you alot further than a gay Im a leader title. As a leader type and a group player I dont want to gimp my group with worthless skills or the nonexistence thereof. If they intend to keep this class the same, I will quickly go to combat medic,entertainer, with some combats skills...BECAUSE DOING THAT WILL SHOW I WANT TO AID MY GROUP AND IF THAT MEANS IM A GOOD LEADER THAN FINE. Im a team player, I had high hopes for this class, there is no harm in making this the best general support character out there.
It takes an unselfish teamwork driven person to take a class that only improves others, the name SQUAD LEADER still is and will remain a hollow title until changed. I wear a SL tag right now becauseI cannot believe that the class will not be improved. It really is so outof whack they need to freakin really add some changes or just get rid of the class altogether. So I continue to advance in my class although I have nothing to look forward to, no skills or abilities which make a difference, and I have to wonder if they actually do anything or are just broken, either way I doubt I or anyone else would ever know the difference.
How you can justify that SL is fine the way it is, is beyond me, you mean to say you are happy that you pay 135 skill points just for a chat channel?
The abilities granted by the SL is barely even noticeable, most of the abilities fail anyway.
Seriously I could care less whether l33t punks want to play the SL because its uber or not. I could care less whether they tarnish the reputation of SL or not. I just dont see how it is fair to grind your time away to Master SL only to see that 135 skill points can be better spent on doctoring/CM skills to help out a group.
A good SL that makes him/herself useful regardless of how little benefit his profession brings to the group, can and will be able to find groups anyway.
I much rather grps pick us up because we can contribute something valuable to the group rather than taking us because they think we have natural leadership to lead the group around.
Because a doctor/CM/BH or just about anyone with real life exp/leadership can lead the group around w/o even needing to train in novice SL.
I'll keep this short.
Original poster = me
I posted this as a bright eyed, bushy tailed, newly minted Novice Squad Leader. I reversed my position soon after originalposting based on good, thoughtful posts from more experienced community members. And a month of playing SqL has in my mind reinforced this Bottom Line (as per DiLune above):
SQUAD LEADERS NEED MORE KICKASS
(we just might differ on the amount of kickass )
Thanks,
-Psquire
Been awhile since i've posted on this board as I spend most of my time on the server boards. I've been a master SL since mid July and have experimented with every aspect of our profession.
After a couple months of evaluation I see the profession as planned well but not finished and needs some minor tweeking. No new skills/abilities need to be introduced, the existing ones just need to work properly. I'll go over the abilities/skills and give my opinion.
-System Message-Should have a toggle where you can chat without having to type /sysgroup.
-Group Terrain Negotiation-I like it, my medics can keep up.
-Group Burst Run Efficiency-Effective when its used but it is hardly a noticable skill. No one would miss it if it was gone and no one hardly notices it when its there.
-Stedy Aim-Useful for helping beginers but those at master level dont need it. I never use it.
-Volley Fire-Needs to have the group assist you on your target, with a toggle for all players to turn off(such as medics). Also the cost should be reduced for the ability and the chance for fail reduced.
-Form Up-Good ability, tough when you are dizzy but makes sense as you would be a poor leader while dizzy. Would like to see it cure other status like intimidate for the cost to use.
-Boost Morale-It seemed to work fine at the beginning spreading the wounds but now it seems to spread them and inflict additional. Even when fixed I would be hesitant to use it in a group as it tends to upset people who dont fully understand the ability and its potential. I only use it in groups with close friends.
-Rally-I use it all the time, there is a noticable difference in PvP and it easily takes the place of Steady Aim. Combined with Group Range/Melee Defense gives the group an edge.
-Group Melee/Range Defense-Having watched people with the same weapons and skills duel while one was in my group with rally you can tell who has the better defense.
I love being a Squad Leader and while being one doesnt make me a leader it does enhance my ability to be one.
Kandhar <TAG>
Master Squad Leader
Master Sharpshooter
Lowca Server
Just when everyone had agreed that the original premise of this thread was invalid, Kandhar sides with the 'SL is fine' arguement.
Minor tweeking? Nothing new needs to be added? (I assume you are serious. Your are serious, right?)
I strongly disagree.
Mmm.
Well written, and i do know how you feel. But, if you stop and introspect and think about it... you actually just wanna feel special. You stated that CH and BH are all the same to you. You would like to be different, to stand out. It's a classic symptom. Every game has underdogs classes that some player like because they aren't a lot of them. Like Blademaster in DAoC. Look, i'm a blademaster. I suck hard, but i'm unique!
But forget it. You cannot count on a title or profession to make you stand out. I had a friend in DAoC that rolled a shadowblade thinking *i'll be the underplayed assassin* Hahahaha. Everyone is a shadowblade in the end.
Don't ask for your profession to get you respect, don't ask for it to make you stand out. Stand out for yourself, earn your own respect. I don't walk in cantina thinking *wow, a sqaud leader, must be a good mature player!*. No, i think *oh, a master squad leader. Kid must have stand very often in town spamming shouts of tusken group forming*....
But, sometimes i enter a cantina and i do admire a good leader. Not always a SL. But i'll go *hey, that's Pyrok! I grouped with him the other day, and we did well.. wonder if he wants to group again today*
See, me and my friends actually use made-up SL: we all color coded any sentence with mm in it.
So, if the designated leader wants to give out an order (like choose target and such) he just puts mm at the end of the sentence, and poof, it's color coded! No need for Squad leader.
So, sorry to be so harsh, you sound like a decent fellow, very articulate, more then me, but, in my eye, your post sounds like : I wanna stand out and be different, and i want my profession to do it for me. Let's keep the skill tree poor so no one else rolls some.
Sorry man, in every game, every player can play every profession.
Well except Jedi...
Venar I assume you are talking to me. Sure who doesnt want to feel special, but I think my last statement covered that being the profession doesnt make me a leader, SL enhances my ability to be one. I encourage everyone who asks me about my main profession to go for it and say how much I like being one. I think Gordon sumed my post up in one sentence. Dont add new skills, just fix the existing ones. I dont jump on here and post hasty conclutions, I've been at this for awile going over tactics and trying new things. I by no means said our profession was perfect and doesnt need work. Please read my post and re-read if you need and see if your conclusions of me were not hastily written.