Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Combined Ranger/SL
Are sure this is official though? I certainly believe Darth_Sushi's conclusions....but shouldn't we ask for official notice that is is being considered, or is maybe even already decided?
It's going to create a lot of ill will if a month from now...we hear this isn't going to happen after all or was never a done deal in the first place.
Lorianna_Aliishyn wrote:
Are sure this is official though? I certainly believe Darth_Sushi's conclusions....but shouldn't we ask for official notice that is is being considered, or is maybe even already decided?
It's going to create a lot of ill will if a month from now...we hear this isn't going to happen after all or was never a done deal in the first place.
This is completely off the books. So it is pure speculation and rumor.
Ackehece wrote:
Owen-Lars wrote:Creature Handlers and Docs? Erm no. Since when couldnt CHs and Docs engage in pvp and pvnpc or pvcreature? They can engage in every combat arena and there is only ranger that cannot.
Ranger has never been focused as hunters. Tell me where in our tree it says we are hunters?
We have better harvesting mods and that means nothing, we can track npcs/pcs/creatures so that doesnt count, we can hide from npcs/creatures (if it ever works), we can trap creatures which is probly the most hunter like ability we have and that is it. Now if you said survivalist or wilderness expert then fair enough point taken but we are not hunters, thats just a role we are pigeon holed into because 90% of our skills do not work.
The thing is - have you ever had or even heard from a dev since the game was prebeta that rangers were anything other then big game hunters? No? nor have I. It was the design of the profession to allow for hunting and that the Rangers would be the best hunters around. The camps of course I grant you are broken but your camo works, your tracking works and your traps while not working are designed to only work on creatures. You gain skills to explore and to hunt for bio easier and that is about it... Where do you see pc/npc combat in that?
Actually yes, ages ago, when Holocron was still around they acknowledged that Ranger wasn't unique and different enough from Scout and that was the problem with the profession, which they promised to change. /conceal has always worked on creatures and NPCs alike, even the skill description in-game states so. The was once were there Devs tried to convince us that it was never intended but that was pure BS because they didn't want to fix it. They've left it "broken" ever since.
Im not saying this is good for SLs and they should take it, infact i could understand why they wouldnt want to go for it but there is no denying some areas are similar. Rangers like to lead a group into the wild, SLs like to lead a group in the battle, Rangers like to enhance the group in combat, SLs like to enhance the group in combat. Then there are differences like SLs like to lead through tactics and strategy and the ranger likes to lead through wilderness knowledge and survival techniques.
When have rangers ever enhanced group combat? That is pretty much purely a SL skill. SL's like to lead everywhere including in the wild and have no real need of ranger skills to lead in the wild. SLs of course lead through tactics and strategy and that is pretty much the hard bitten combat vet that SL's want to be.
When? How about since the game launched? You wrote you've played since the beginning. Remember when camps where used when hunting? Back when grouping was still going on under the "old" combat system? Sure you do. Camps were then nerfed but they enhanced group combat (reducing downtime) back then. Before the Devs decided to give the crowd control effects from our traps to every profession we were actually the top mezzing and de-buff profession, thing was, the game was so broken that you could kill everything solo in no time so there was no need for it. Only a very naive person would insist on stating that a profession with AoE blind, stun, dizzy and rooting abilities ( and of course our defense de-buff traps ) but no combat skills is not supposed to engage and enhance group combat. We've just always been limited to creatures and most of the high-end game is NPC. We can however track, PCs, NPCs and creatures alike. SL give direct commands to the group, that why it's called Leader but Rangers, in theory, are just as important for a group. And it's the theory part we are complaining about, because we've never received a balance pass to put our abilities on par with the rest of the professions, thus they go un-used and others, like you, don't see them
.
There are many similar ideals and i know Irott understood these relationships as we have talked about them a good few times. It doesnt mean that we should merge or that a merge is good for either professions but if it were to happen there are various parts of each profession that would merge very well.
Completely different design and background to the professions. Really they would not work together no matter the surface similarities that some people bring up. CH and Ranger are much closer related then SL and ranger by a long shot.
Message Edited by Owen-Lars on 06-08-200505:49 AM
Oku Kee'lus BH won't be FOTM after this. Ranger + 1 combat prof leaves only 4 skillpoints left over. A lot of BH's might want to try this, but without some weapons combat proff, they'd never be able to kill a mark even if they find him right away...
A lot of people seem to see Rangers as big game hunters only. The Ranger camp sees it's self as one or both of two diffrent things: Somthing like Army Rangers, and something like Daniel Boone, or Davy Crokett. Some of us only want to hunt critters, others evinsion somthing more like either the wilderness man who is called on special occastions for a crack spec opps raid (not that we can do something like that with the current skill-set....) Those who feel that way would pick up squad leader too, but again, not enough skill points are left for a weapons combat prof....
Now, whether or not this merger will happen at all is an entirly difrent manner, I'm just tired of people thinking that the only thing we're good for is killing rabbits....
Personally I don't like the idea. I play a squad leader to be in a group and fight whatever it is we're fighting. I love SL and Ranger is another cool profession. But, the merger of the two for a...Pathfinder? I'm not looking for paths. I'm here to help turn the tide of the GCW. If I need to find an npc, pc or creature or whatever, then I'll look for a Ranger. As a Squad Leader, I see some really cool things that the Rangers get that would be a benifit to my group, the camo kits are cool and I've yet to really experience them. Once I get time to start recruiting for my guild again, I plan on making a strike team within the guild that will have to include a Ranger (so if you're going Ranger and are guildless, contact Talley). I'm not out gathering hides, meat or bone. I barely use my camps anyway. So in my opinion, the camp/camo kits are pointless, except for maybe "after" missions. But, don't get me wrong, the kits need to be used and have a use. I know for me, some of the higher camo/camp kits would be a good thing. I say they just need to fix both professions. You group to pull in different skills and abilities, I don't group to be uber. If my group wants to be uber, it would be an SL and a bunch of Jedi, but after an experience last night of just hanging out while the Jedi did all the work and left us with those battles he didn't want to deal with, grouping with Jedi has really put a sour note on the whole idea of Jedi. Jedi, will be discussed at a later time and place, but I do not hate Jedi.
But I feel they need to be separate but fix them both. Hopefully our correspondents can talk to the Devs and figure out the best way to handle this.
Um..I may be wrong, but i think Ranger TN only applies to crawl speed. I believe the "running up hills" skill is only in the scout exploration tree.
SickSix wrote:
um, i dont know, but most creatures i fight have just as much TN as i do, if not more. running up hills would really only put more distance between me and ......other players*gasp* but we're only hunters right?
Ackehece wrote:
... Rangers can run up hills in combat.
Message Edited by Ackehece on 06-07-2005 11:13 PM
There used to be a time when the SL forums were almost devoid of such flaming. Please people, keep this constructive and not telling people off.
I am pretty neutral in this. The reasons the Ranger correspondent stated are good. They are complimentary professions, but there is no single profession that encompasses the skills from both. However, I am in complete agreement that the devs really don't know what to do with either profession. Squad Leaders have needed (and been promised) a revamp for a very long time, but the devs don't know what to do. I now have a Master Ranger and almost a MSL again, and I think they are about equivalent uses. Ranger suits me well, and I use everything, including camps. Squad Leaders are only useful in groups, but people have told me post-CU that they like having squad leaders around.
The best reason anyone could have for merging the professions, is that it is the only thing they can do. To me, knowing what to do is the hardest part of doing something. It is feasible, and there have always been good ideas for making Ranger and SL work together. I would like to see actual thought from devs, that show that they are trying out ideas from the SL correspondent or other people. Then again, those were my hopes for the CU, but oh well. 