Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader Revamp! Gives Squad Leaders a Squad!
DiLune wrote:
Drazzule wrote:
Okay look at it this way. Rather then saying Faction pets say NPC pets. AKA solders. I don't whant a Rancor army to command. I want NPC's. If not a SL then what?
And as far as leadership. You don't need to be a squad leader to lead a group. If you beleave that then groups with out a SL should only be 5 and with should be 20.
OR have it only SL can form groups. Would that be fair?
I don't understand the logic in this thinking. You don't have to be a SQ to run players in a group. The SL role was as a commander of solders on the field. That can and should include NPC's. And why just Faction pets? Why not Neutral solders to. Mecs. For instance.
It seems there is a idea going around that SL should be the only people to form AP's and Groups. And I don't agree with that. Sorry.
I play a lot of stratagy games. Warcraft, CivIII, RoN. As Examples. None of the troops I lead into battle are players. There all NPC's per say. Groups of troops that I control to make a battle plan. That take stratagy. planing. And exacution to acheive a battle plan.
Why on earth do you think this will not work here? And make a SL anything less.
the idea ofsolder pets and the idea of a zone of control is what most stratagy based games work off of. Why would this game be diffrent in that context?
And again I will say. You Don't ?Need to be a SL to run a group.
You are correct. Every longterm vet of this forum realizes that. However, that's why we are getting a revamp. As SL stands you don't need it to run a group and it really doesn't add much when you do have it. However, with the revamp you still won't need a SL to run a group but you will need one to be a kickass group, and SL will kickass. Modifying players is much more rewarding to most SL.
Just as the Devs didn't want to add a CH clone for droids I am 90% certain they don't want to do the same for NPCs. It would be nice if they had faction perks for controlling faction NPCs but most of use would prefer to keep it out of the SL trees.
Actually I think the Skill Trees are right where these "Summon" abilities belong. It is only one tree given soley to NPC units, every other tree benefits the WHOLE party. Think of the NPC units as a Squad Leaders weapons, just likea Master Carbineer with an E11or such and such would be looked at today.
A Squad Leaders abilities should not be in the ability to use crappy abilities and "System Messages," especially when we have Group Chat built into the game. We need the ability to augment our group. That's what most of my above proposed ideas do, to a far greater extent than what we currently have. The NPC petsjustadd more options and tactics, in that there are units of varied damage and To-Hit types. This would make Squad Leader a fairly unique Profession, and not just a CH clone.
The above idea is not designed to make Squad Leader a solo experience, thoughit does make solo play easier. It is designed to add tactical functionality to a class that is BASED on tactical functionality, wether that bein a small 5 unit NPC group orin a 35 PC group raid.
All we ask for is that when a group of 20 players goes against a group of 19 players + 1 master squad leader, the group with the master squad leader wins (almost) every time. We should provide a tangible benefit to a group, where as right now we're simply occupying a slot that is better filled by any other combat profession in the game. Heck, a Rancor probably would be more beneficial than an SL in a group.
An SL can lead faction pets or CH pets all they want, that's fine by me. I just don't want specific bonuses to the number or strength of those pets in the SL line. I'm a firm believer that power & number of Faction Pets should be determined by Faction Rank, and creature pets by the CH skill. I don't want to be a Creature Handler handling stupid mindless automatons, I want to turn a group of thinking, breathing players into an efficient war machine.
The community is somewhat split on this, but I believe it's split because no one knows of a good set of game mechanics to make this possible. Adding mechanics to let us control NPC's is easy, adding mechanics to let us "boost" players is hard without stepping on the toes of Doctors/Entertainers or turning us into EQ Bards. We've come up with some good things though, like improved regen, better targeting, bunkers, etc.
SL is a profession for interaction & dealing with players. If you don't like that, then perhaps SL isn't for you. The Dev's want SWG to be a "grouping" game, where almost none of the high end content is solo-able. They're not quite there, but heading that way (Check the TC update notes for news on the Corellian Corvette, that one looks almost un-soloable). With the increased introduction of "2-legged krayt's" like NightSisters, Tusken Observers, and Force Sensitive NPC's, they're trying to get groups to go out and hunt more. Squad Leaders are supposed to be at the forefront of that, but we're left behind because we honestly have nothing to contribute right now.
NPC's aren't the answer, better tools for "managing" combat are what we need.
I thinkSquad Leadershould get NPC pets. I dont see why not. Back in the early days I LOVED to walk around with my three troopers in formation. I felt more like a Squad Leader with those guys than I did spamming system messages an form ups. Hell I droped the SL profession simply because I did'nt need that tree to be a real SL or to control my Squad of troopers.
Truth is I think there is room for both. Sqaud Leader could be useful both for the ability to control NPC backup on the field as well as give buff's an commandsto a group. It really would'nt be a Creature Handler clone.I mean the Squad Leader would'nt go out an tame soldiers for god sakes.....
But I think it would just work well on so many levels. Nuetral Squad Leaders could even work with the Droid Engineers for Droid Troops. Command a group of Battle Droids! Or join the Empire an command a group of Stormtroopers. I would LOVE this. Like I said in the "What is Squad Leader" topic. They could just take the existing Leadership mod. An apply it to limiting how many troops a SL can command at once an what level. ATST would require lots of Leadership by itself, Stormtroopers would take less, etc.
I can't see a difference, other than number of legs, in a NPC Squad Leader and a CH.. and that could be taken care of with master CH and spats/kaadu.The only reason for havinga humanoid NPC squad would beroleplay for the solo gamer. To do this, I'd say you're NPC squad would HAVE to be faction based (high thug faction to lead thugs, for instance) and that having a thug die while in your command would result in a hefty faction hit to combat the SL who sees fit to send wave after wave of an NPC type with little concern for their welfare. A good soldier also will talk back when he watches his three squad mates sent into the grind like so much meat. Having a squad that doesn'tfits better withtheJedi skill list (the elusive "mind control" tree :smileyvery-happy
than anything. Bothgood ANDbad leaders build areputation, after all.Squad Leader can be hardfor people who want to start out with that good reputation rather than earn it over time.
Remember, It's not just a game. It's a monthly Expence. 
Drazzule wrote:
Last thought every one YAY!!!. Remeber. It's for the sake of Fun we do this. Don't number crunch to hard.
Quick note to. I use to beleave that you should get more faction solders with rank. But then I remember a Captain I knew in the army. He was a clirk and had little to know leader ship value at all.
Yeraze wrote:
I have to stick to my guns on this one. Squad Leaders lead Players, not NPC's.
I have picked up squad leader to lead a squad of friends into battle. And not mindless pets (factional or not), if I wanted to do that i would pick up CH. But i dropped that, not because i didn't like it. So if you come and tell me you want to "summon" npc to add to your squad i'm telling you this isn't a pokemon game (picked it up at the CH forums when i was CH 
). So if they choose to give squad leaders the ability to get more npcs out at the same time you are going to waste the creature handler completely. And at the moment there are only are faction npc.
But I agree if you say that you should get more factional pets out according to your rank in that faction. This would be a good insentive to get higher ranks in the factions. But that it should be bound to SL isn't for me to believe. But your bonuses you give to players should also influence the factional pets. Like say increased regeneration, your factional pet (if grouped with you) should get also a increaded regeneration. This make SL a better colonel than a non SL colonel that lead an indentical group. You are at least a SL and know how to command a squad and he don't.
For the first two skilltrees good job. Now to find a better one for the last two. Or at least the half of the last one
Message Edited by GamerProX on 04-08-2004 05:51 PM
DiLune wrote:
Balance issues really. the more you put into one the more you take out of the other. In the end, if you can't get 70 CLs out of your pets then you are gimping yourself by putting pet power in your lines. You really have to commit to one or the other. Lead people or lead pets. Leading both makes you a watered down version of what you could have been.
I guess I just don't see why one would take away for the other. Squad leader can be everything you want it to be for leading players, AND it can be the NPC version of a CH. Squad leaders could then dabble, mix, match, master etc. according to their liking.