Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Formula for Squad Leader XP?
Well Happymob,
a) I think what Shadowleader3 was trying to say was that if you make all SL xp based on giving support, SLs who want to be offensive will be punished. He is right, if SL xp wasn't given for any weapons usage, then weapons usage would get in the way of getting SL xp.
b) Why do I think SL xp should be at least somewhat based on your offensive capabilities? I guess I base this feeling on what a good leader in real life is often like...leading by example is typically a good thing. So, I would balance things so that you got some xp for combat damage and some xp for how much your support helped the rest of the team. How that should be balanced is of course debatable...my initial rough guess is that it should be something like 50/50, but I'm sure there are a lot of ways to balance things that would turn out well. As I have said previously...I envision a safari leader or experienced NCO in the military when I think about SL. What respectable safari leader or NCU wouldn't be the most accurate and disciplinedshooter in his team? If you read some Vietnam stories, the leader of many of the more elite teams would be the only one with a grenade launcher on his rifle...why? So he could mark targets. Gotta be a good shot for that to work. So yeah...I see SLs as combat support. Combat + support. 
Of course, in the end, what I think doesn't matter and neither does what you think matter...what matters is what the DEVs think, and I'll bet you a wad of creds that they'll never even read this post. 
--Ze'ev
You make good points about a good squad leader not necessarily being the best shot in the group...which is why I argue for rewards for good support rewards (xp) as well. While I agree I oversold the "best shot" idea, the squad leader still has to shoot (as all of your examples included), so some reward for shooting should remain. In the end, if we had a balanced approach to xp rewards, the best SLs and the ones who got the biggest xp rewards would be the ones thatuse a good mix ofthe support/leadership skills and their combat skills.
And yes...in my experience, this particular forum is pretty unique. I think the last forum like this was the NT forum for AO before they nerfed the AO forums. Of course, NT in AO was another combat support role. Go figure.
--Ze'ev
I thought we wanted SL XP to be mainly based on the improved effectiveness of the group? That way it doesn't matter if you're healing, giving orders, attacking, or otherwise... if the group is better because of you, then you get XP.
... programming that isn't easy though 
That's what many have argued, you are right Voltaris. I personally could live with that, but people have noted some issues with it. In any case, often a compromise solution is the easier one to sell (to the DEVs in this case).
--Ze'ev
Oh...and no, I don't think it's all that hard to code up something like this. Coding SL xp based on quality added to the group by the SL could be done fairly easily.
For instance, on each shot taken by the group, check to see if the accuracy modifiers given to the group by the SL caused a hit where normally there would be a miss. If yes, give the SL some xp.
Pseudo code that makes a few assumptions, but should illustrate the point:
int hit_roll = random(0,100);
int hit_total = hit_roll + range_modifier + personal_modifiers + SL_modifiers;
int hit_check = random(0,100);
if(hit_total >= hit_check) target_hit = true;
if(target_hit) doDamageAssesment();
if(hit_total - SL_modifiers < hit_check) assignSquadLeaderXP();
You could give a flat amount of xp for each hit, you could give xp based on how much damage was given by the hit, and I'm sure you could come up with other algorithms as well. That's some pretty simple code...you could do some similar code for each of the group combat modifiers an SL gives their group too. For the defensive modifiers, you check to see if a miss happened because of the SL and then assign xp based on that miss (flat, how much damage avoided, etc.). This is not difficult code...the code that clusters all the servers so we can run across a world without seeing the server hops is more interesting code than this.
--Ze'ev
Rally is the only modifier we provide that affects to-hit chance. Affectively what you just outlined only gives XP when the effects of Rally are useful.
The question is: How do you measure the improved effectiveness of a Squad with a SL over a Squad without one? You need to somehow measure not only the modifers the Squad Leader provides, but also how much quicker the group kills, how much less damage they take, how less frequent incaps are, how more organized looting/harvesting is, etc. etc...
Of course a good number of those are a tad tricky 
The obvious answer is that you don't.
/rally is not the only modifier that SLs have that give increased combat performance. A lot of the passive modifiers do too. As for the other things you mention...don't give xp for them directly, you are already giving xp for them indirectly by giving xp for the increased combat performance. SLs are COMBAT support, after all. I think you might be out-clevering yourself by thinking up ways to reward all those other things when simply rewarding the extra hits and dodges that an SL gives ALREADY rewards a good SL for keeping his team alive.
Sure, some SLs will be better at organizing their team etc., but that isn't SL specific...anyone can do that with any profession. Don't give xp for that...you can only give xp for things that are specifically in a game engine (unless you have a DM following every player and giving discretionary xp).
--Ze'ev
Well according to your pseudo code example, that only had to-hit modifiers included, and while SLs have other combat related bonuses, only Rally improves accuracy/to-hit, hence that was the only way someone could get XP there.
I suppose adding similar checks for Melee Defense (when you a dodge of melee attack due to bonus, get XP), Ranged Defense (when you a dodge of ranged attack due to bonus, get XP), Terrain Negotiation (any implementation too exploitable...), Burst Run Efficiency (also exploitable), /form-up (any time you cure a dizzy/stun, get XP), /boostmorale (for every wound that gets distributed, get a slice of XP), /volleyfire (every point of damage that gets done, get a slice of XP), /steadyaim (same result as Rally, but trickier to measure), etc....
Would be a really weird and uneven amount of XP gain though...
If you read more than just the pseudo code you'll notice I said the same sort of algorithm should be applied to all the other combat bonuses. As for the burst run and terrain negotiation thingies...yeah, I don't think there should be any xp for it, besides, as you say, there's no good way to do it anyway. As for the xp gain being uneven, I think you are again trying to be too clever. Musicians get xp bonuses based on their flourishes...sometimes they get more, sometimes less and it's based on group size/skill as well...and their xp gains are pretty reasonably done I think (I'm working up the musician tree and I have no complaints...maybe musicians do, I haven't checked their forums really).
I think this proposal would work pretty well assuming the right amount of xp for each xp reward was found.
--Ze'ev
One issue I see with this: a SL is likely to get the most XP from an inexperienced group. The bonus provided by a squad leader's presence makes up a much larger percentage of a novice combatant's overall modifiers than it does to the master of an advanced profession. That would indicate the best way to get SL XP would be to takea bunch of newbies out hunting.
Nochmal wrote:
For instance, on each shot taken by the group, check to see if the accuracy modifiers given to the group by the SL caused a hit where normally there would be a miss. If yes, give the SL some xp.
For the defensive modifiers, you check to see if a miss happened because of the SL and then assign xp based on that miss (flat, how much damage avoided, etc.).
Posted by Nochmal:
1) The comment made by anyone who examines how SL xp works...it is silly that SL xp is based on how much damage the SL personally deals. There are lots of reasons this is silly and they have been discussed many times already.
2) A point that hasn't been said alot. Scaling the SL xp linearly with group size means that there is no real incentive to group unless you are grouping with people who don't deal as much damage as you or deal different kinds of damage as you.
Agreed. Squad Leader should be a combat support class and not an offensive combat class. Most squad leaders will have skill in their weapon of choice, but it shouldn't be a requirement to play the class effectively. My goal is to play a combat medic/squad leader combo with no real marksman skills. Under the current exp model, this is completely impractical unless I surrender my weapons skills after I make Master Squad Leader. Of course they also need to Squad Leader more attractive before I jump head first into this path, but the lack of effectiveness of the profession is well ocvered elsewhere.
I agree that a Squad Leader should get xp from using his abilities and some from doing damage in a group. You cannot swing the Squad Leader to a pure support role though. It would just be the opposite of what Squad Leadership is now. i.e. combat characters would be punished while support only characters would be rewarded.
We need to have a common balance whereby all types, i.e. support and combat can both gain xp equally. Wouldn't you agree?
It seems to me that playing a purely support SL should be possible. However, I would think that a reasonable xp system for SLs would make a purely support SL advance more slowly. Any system for xp which allows flexibility is good. The skill tree we have been given in SWG is wonderful in this regard, and there are often more than one way to get XP of a given type. So, to me, the idea of a medic/SL should be one that is possible. On another note...in real life, there are those who lead from the front (combat SL) and there are those who lead from the rear (support SL) and all sorts in between.
--Ze'ev