Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader Revamp Looks Great... Not required to be a Group Leader is a _GOOD_ Thing!
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KJFett3 wrote:
Sorry, I prefer 1 SL to a group. I would find 2 to be acceptable as long as the first being the group leader was able to assign the NCO spot to the second. Beyond that...too many chefs spoil the broth.
It is clearly the wishes of the vast majority that post to these boards that anything more than 2 is unacceptable.
Furthermore as this is the largest issue that the entire revamp revolves around, this is not what we asked for. NOWHERE did we as SLs ask for the ability of up to 8 SLs in a group to function in this manor....and since the entire revamp revolves around it, it is clear that the Dev that did it did NOT do their job in insuring that the wishes of the community were even a sliver of what was produced.
The Wiki that was put together clearly sets out what the majority of the SL community desired.
To lead, to have the tools to lead better and to get our groups in and out of action alive.
To those of you that say that a Squad Leader can be whatever and doesn't have to be the group lead, I say...follow the link in my sig and read the first post. THAT is what a Squad Leader is. I am sorry, but there is no room for debate on the issue. Call me stuborn all you like. But when it comes to the very core of what we are, we are LEADERS of SQUADS, not support of squads. The very abilities that go along with a group lead are apart of those and to not have them is to be less than a leader in a group or squad that suprisingly ,some of you can't figure out are one and the same.
I am shocked that a dev would have created this revamp in this fashion and pushed it forward in this manor. It is clear that the fears we all had back when they admitted to not knowing what we were have all become true. TO help that dev or devs, I will give them the cliff notes:
Justice Judgement Dependability I nitiative Decisiveness Tact I ntegrity Enthusiam
Bearing Unselfishness Courage Knowledge Loyalty Endurance
All traits of a good Leader.
All traits of a good Squad Leader
Read the post in the link and you will notice something....they all revolve around the one single leader needing each of these traits to help those under him.
I can not help but feel sorrow for what will become of SL if these changes go into effect. In many ways, I would almost prefer to remain the same as we are now than to see our Squad Leader profession torn apart but such a blatant attempt to destroy the very definition of our name.
Jarhead
KJFett3 wrote:
To those of you that say that a Squad Leader can be whatever and doesn't have to be the group lead, I say...follow the link in my sig and read the first post. THAT is what a Squad Leader is. I am sorry, but there is no room for debate on the issue. Call me stuborn all you like. But when it comes to the very core of what we are, we are LEADERS of SQUADS, not support of squads. The very abilities that go along with a group lead are apart of those and to not have them is to be less than a leader in a group or squad that suprisingly ,some of you can't figure out are one and the same.
As I stated in a previous post, "squads" and "groups" in gameplay terms are not the same thing. A squad is nothing more than two or more players working directly together on a specific combat goal. If it helps, think of how the concept of a squad relates to guilds, or to players that are all within range of spatial chat, or to players who are all within one dungeon, or to players that have all joined the same chat channel. In other words, allmembers ofa squad could be part of the same guild, but not all members of that guild are necessarily members of that squad. Or another example, all members of a squad could be within spatial chat range of each other, but not all players within spatial chat range of each other are necessarily part of the same squad. I know this might sound like I'm pointing out the obvious, but the point I'm trying to make is that you need to look at the group system the same way. Squads and groups are not the same thing. Squads are a subset of groups. All members of a squad are part of the same group, but not all members of a group are necessarily part of the same squad. And therefore there's no reason why a squad leader should also have to be the group leader. There's nothing in the squad leader skill boxes that make a squad leader more honest or more skilled at knowing who should be in a group, and thus there's no reason why other members of a group should be forced to give up that power to a squad leader.
Too many people seem to be of the opinion that if a person doesn't have real world leadership skills then he shouldn't be able to roleplay as a squad leader in the game. Look at it this way, I'm not a sniper in real life, and I have no knowledge of concealment tactics, however in-game I roleplay as a sniper and can use the /coverup skill to simulate my character using the concealment tactics that I know nothing of in real life. The squad leaders abilities are supposed to be the same sort of thing. I don't have any knowledge of how a squad should storm a fortification, or how to properly lay down suppresing fire during a retreat, or how to best pump up morale in the middle of a combat situation, and even if I did know all those things, the game most likely doesn't have the minute detail necessary for me to perform them directly. Instead all we have is some broadly defined special abilities. When a player triggers one of these squad leader abilities, we're supposed to imagine that the character he is roleplaying in game has done whatever actions would be necessary in the Starwars world to instruct thesquad on how to perform that specific task. Simply put, you're playing a character who's a squad leader, but that doesn't mean you yourself are a squad leader. A person who could never lead a squad in real life, should still be able to try to play one in the game if he wants. If you don't like playing with players who's characters are that different than their real life selfs, then you can choose not to group with them.
That all being said, the game still has a need for real world leadership skills, however those skills can't be approximated by skill boxes. A player either has those skills or he doesn't. When it comes to choosing who to have asa group leader, the traits you want are someone who's honest, fair, and understand the game system. Everything else is secondady. Its bad for the game to set up a system where players have to sometimes give up having an honest, fair group leader, just because they want to have a squad leader in the group. Now, I'm not trying to say that squad leaders are dishonest or anything, but a player who is playing as a squad leader has just as much chance of being dishonest, greedy, and vindictive as any other player out there.
Roles in the game that primarily need to be filled with players that have specific real world skills need to be kept seperate from any specific profession or skill boxes as much as possible.
As I stated in a previous post, "squads" and "groups" in gameplay terms are not the same thing. A squad is nothing more than two or more players working directly together on a specific combat goal. If it helps, think of how the concept of a squad relates to guilds, or to players that are all within range of spatial chat, or to players who are all within one dungeon, or to players that have all joined the same chat channel. In other words, allmembers ofa squad could be part of the same guild, but not all members of that guild are necessarily members of that squad.[...]
What smokescreen are you trying to rise here? For your information, we are speaking of the profession squad leader, not of some philosophical discussion what a squad is or might be. We are speaking in terms of game mechanics and i am really sorry, while this sure is an interesting discussion, it has absolutely no context to the current issue of the SL revamp.
Too many people seem to be of the opinion that if a person doesn't have real world leadership skills then he shouldn't be able to roleplay as a squad leader in the game.Look at it this way, I'm not a sniper in real life, and I have no knowledge of concealment tactics, however in-game I roleplay as a sniper and can use the /coverup skill to simulate my character using the concealment tactics that I know nothing of in real life.
Again i am sorry, but your comparison is not working well. The sniper you describe can be handled completely in terms if in-game mechanics. Good leadership always is a matter of the player behind the character. The profession might give you some mechanics at hand to emphasize your leadership, but you have to have some basic abilities to hang on to do the job.
The squad leaders abilities are supposed to be the same sort of thing. I don't have any knowledge of how a squad should storm a fortification, or how to properly lay down suppresing fire during a retreat, or how to best pump up morale in the middle of a combat situation, and even if I did know all those things, the game most likely doesn't have the minute detail necessary for me to perform them directly.
If you really play an SL for some time, especially if you get involved into basebusting and PvP, you will learn what you have to order your people and how things work out. This doesn't mean that you have any knowledge on how to do it in real life, but in terms of in-game mechanics you will learn it quickly. Of course, this job can be done by a master tailor, too, in theory, but it somehow, i can't explain why, it matches better to the squad leader profession.
Instead all we have is some broadly defined special abilities. When a player triggers one of these squad leader abilities, we're supposed to imagine that the character he is roleplaying in game has done whatever actions would be necessary in the Starwars world to instruct thesquad on how to perform that specific task. Simply put, you're playing a character who's a squad leader, but that doesn't mean you yourself are a squad leader. A person who could never lead a squad in real life, should still be able to try to play one in the game if he wants. If you don't like playing with players who's characters are that different than their real life selfs, then you can choose not to group with them.
Your logic doesn't work out here. You see, this whole discussion is about the topic, if there should be several people doing their SL-mechanics, which apparently are more important and defining to you, than the actual leading. The point exactly is that even the mechanics are built in a way, that a malevolent or incompetent player can already easily bring the group into trouble. And to increase the problem, the combination of two good squad leaders who just evaluate the situation slightly different of want to go a different tactical approach at a given time can bring havoc to the own team by not only giving contradicting orders but even applying contradicting buffs (which them might alternate every few seconds) and allow no acceptable way of fighting for anybody in team.
The old design of squad leader basically allowed to be a buffbot, with the exception of volley fire. Keep up rally after CU, keep formup running before CU, thy to keep retreat on as much as you canat both times, much more you didn't have to do in terms of game mechanics. With the new design, leadership and commands are directly interconnected and this is definitely what we wanted and what i welcome very much. But you have to understand, if i now for example issue the retreat command, the team will not be able to fight in any way. The descriptions of the ability is very clear, no more regeneration of action or mind, but very fast movement speed. Do you really want to give such powerful commands into the hands of a random person in team? Imagine if they are triggered without having the current tactics in mind, just for selfish reasons. (Like, pistoleer XY for the fun of it also dabbled a bit in SL. He gets hurt, his burstrun is still on cooldown. Of couse, he could wait the 3 seconds till a doc heals him, but he prefers to trigger retreat and run away... the fact that the rest of the team is caught without warning and dies is a minor issue for him... and the rest of the team is astonished, because this retreat is the very first moment they knew that this guy has some SL in his build...)
Sorry, the new design even more than the old one requires the SL to coordinate and lead the team, just randomly applying buffs is not going to do it.
That all being said, the game still has a need for real world leadership skills, however those skills can't be approximated by skill boxes. A player either has those skills or he doesn't. When it comes to choosing who to have asa group leader, the traits you want are someone who's honest, fair, and understand the game system. Everything else is secondady. Its bad for the game to set up a system where players have to sometimes give up having an honest, fair group leader, just because they want to have a squad leader in the group. Now, I'm not trying to say that squad leaders are dishonest or anything, but a player who is playing as a squad leader has just as much chance of being dishonest, greedy, and vindictive as any other player out there.
As you copied this directly from another posting of yours, i will also directly copy my answer on it:
Now, i've heard that from you more than once, but it actually does nottouch the topic which is discussed here. We all know that there are people who don't have the profession in their build, who still can know very well what to do and can direct operations. I do the very same when i get into places i've never been before, i am the group leader, but if possible take somebody with knowledge of the area along to give necessary information.
I am also aware, that there can be people, and with the revamp comming, there certainly will be many of them, who grinded the profession but have no idea on how to actually lead.
But while i agree with your statement in both aspects, i also dare to say that this is a philosophical discussion about abilities of players behind the character and doesn't concern the workability of the profession at all. For me, the fact counts that as long as two SLs can give commands, especially if they are able to cancel out each others buffs or apply contradicting buffs (actually it's even worse if they don't cancel each other out), every John-Doe who spent some time just grind a small part of the profession has the potential to bring seriour turmoil to any team he joins and ruin any efficiency.
Roles in the game that primarily need to be filled with players that have specific real world skills need to be kept seperate from any specific profession or skill boxes as much as possible.
So, the Squad Leader, in your eyes, really is best described as braindead buffbot, correct?
Sylow wrote:
Roles in the game that primarily need to be filled with players that have specific real world skills need to be kept seperate from any specific profession or skill boxes as much as possible.
So, the Squad Leader, in your eyes, really is best described as braindead buffbot, correct?
I agree Sylow - that appears to be what he wants. This should be given some thought hopefully by him. SLas group leader requirement is the first inkling this ground game could have a more hands on feel then it does. It would allow actual skill (like JTL) to have a hand in the success of missions.
also (and I posted this for the devs as well)
SLs need the flexibility to be able to change their personal - remove the bad eggs. This is part of the reason for the SL needing to be the leader - in more then name.
Multiple SLs giving contradictory commands is a possibility with the changes and even griefing is very very possible.
A SL who needs to be a leader to use their abilities will either be a good SL or they will move on to a new profession. A bad one will kill her group and no one will group anymore with them as leader but they still would be allowed in a group.
SL not as leader could lead to them never being allowed into any type of group as they are a danger to the group as a whole. Retreat or charge and enhance aggro etc at the wrong time on the wrong person is a death sentence.
A few bad experiences will lead to nerfing of SL skills (probably a reduction in abilities) or people never allowing SLs into groups.
Drashk wrote:
Something for folks to chew on.....
Only a Squad Leader that is Group Leader can use the /sysg ability. This still means that a Squad Leader must be the leader, in order to direct the group. Non-Group Leader SLa can not use the /sysg ability.
Just because only one chef can turn the oven on, doesn't mean the other 7 in the kitchen doing their own thing with their own abilities won't ruin the broth.
As a GL, I may be the only one that can /sys, but what about when I put in an offensive command and push the group forward only to have another SL in the group hit /retreat? A command that in RL would be ignored is suddenly having a drastic effect on the group and getting them all killed.
Now, I understand that I can't make people aim for the target and not draw extra aggro etc., but as the squad leader, I shuld be able to kick them from the group if they are a danger to the squad. Also, rifleman, carbineers, commandos...none of them for that matter have the ability to affect the entire group with the push of one button. That kind of control must be left to one person.
Think of the battle as a big 7 course meal. I am the master chef and the rest of my squad are my assistants. How well will my masterpiece turn out when as I am telling to add more garlic, others in the kitchen are changing the order the meal is served in...removing the steak for fish...beans for corn.....rolls for biscuits and each time I am trying to get them all under control, but they go and do it again and again. The rest of my help is unsure of what to do and try to follow the orders of each one of the "cooks" in my kitchen. The cooks don't even have to mean harm...they may have found that the guest hates steak....but because I am the Master chef...I may also know that there isnt enough fish for everyone....or that another platter needs to change that they didn't know about...
this is why one person, the Squad Leader, the Group Leader must be the one and only one calling the shots. I can understand a limited form of control being given to one "NCO" to affect individual abilites, but not the group...not unless I am dead.
KJFett3 wrote:
Drashk wrote:
Something for folks to chew on.....
Only a Squad Leader that is Group Leader can use the /sysg ability. This still means that a Squad Leader must be the leader, in order to direct the group. Non-Group Leader SLa can not use the /sysg ability.
Just because only one chef can turn the oven on, doesn't mean the other 7 in the kitchen doing their own thing with their own abilities won't ruin the broth.
As a GL, I may be the only one that can /sys, but what about when I put in an offensive command and push the group forward only to have another SL in the group hit /retreat? A command that in RL would be ignored is suddenly having a drastic effect on the group and getting them all killed.
Now, I understand that I can't make people aim for the target and not draw extra aggro etc., but as the squad leader, I shuld be able to kick them from the group if they are a danger to the squad. Also, rifleman, carbineers, commandos...none of them for that matter have the ability to affect the entire group with the push of one button. That kind of control must be left to one person.
Think of the battle as a big 7 course meal. I am the master chef and the rest of my squad are my assistants. How well will my masterpiece turn out when as I am telling to add more garlic, others in the kitchen are changing the order the meal is served in...removing the steak for fish...beans for corn.....rolls for biscuits and each time I am trying to get them all under control, but they go and do it again and again. The rest of my help is unsure of what to do and try to follow the orders of each one of the "cooks" in my kitchen. The cooks don't even have to mean harm...they may have found that the guest hates steak....but because I am the Master chef...I may also know that there isnt enough fish for everyone....or that another platter needs to change that they didn't know about...
this is why one person, the Squad Leader, the Group Leader must be the one and only one calling the shots. I can understand a limited form of control being given to one "NCO" to affect individual abilites, but not the group...not unless I am dead.
I have seen some SLs say that they would feel bad being in a group and not being able to use there skills. I can understand being that way. Nothing is more disappointing than not being able to use your skills...there have been a time or 2 whereI was that second SL in the group...but reality is...I didn't want to lead his group..I wanted to lead mine...and was always the first to break off and form a 2nd group when needed. I didn't try to interfere with his leadership. It wasn't my group...nor would I want to in the future.
Imaridril wrote:
...
This one isnt easy to break down, and Im pretty tired right now.
Groups and squad can be different as you pointed out but they should NOT be.
If you have four ppl being at one spot leading the frontal assault but they are not grouped with each other they cant help each other (cant check health status, no assist command, no SL buffs from the SL who might amoung them) .
In that case your doing somethign seriously wrong.
What you want is that each group works together to one goal to maximise their effective ness. Personally i try to avoid to have one jedi chasing another jedi in my group while the ranged stay way back trying to shot somebody somewhere totally elsewhere while my doc is busy rezsing somebody not in my group while my tank gets riped apart by my opponents riflemans.
So although your right groups are not squads, THEY SHOULD BE IT.
So from my point of view your wrong. GROUPS should be SQUADS, as in working toward one goal.
A group is NOT just another chat channel like a guildchat, it is MORE.
It offers tactical inforamtino about your the status and whereabout of your groupmates, it allows easy reszing and healing as well as the usage of a lot old squad leader commands toward the goal of the group as well as that it allows an assist command (VERY important).
To your second block,
RL and game are two different things yes, again ppl are using RL on both sides of the discussion. AS it should be like RL as well as the game can not be like RL. So in generally this argument works both ways, I try to avoid that.
So if your not a RL leader, but want to be squad leader, what should the profession do?
It should point you toward the things a RL squad leader would, LEAD.
How should the game do that?
By having multipl buff botts in a group? - NO
By putting you in the position to experience how it is to lead and to see what kind of responsibility it is ? - YES
You want to feel/play/roleplay you are a squad leader, so there you go TRY IT.
If somebody wants to tast chocolate ice, you dont give him strawberry just because its cold too.
Oh darn i have to post this to keep up with the discussino ...
darn im tired ...
Ackehece wrote:
Multiple SLs giving contradictory commands is a possibility with the changes and even griefing is very very possible.
A SL who needs to be a leader to use their abilities will either be a good SL or they will move on to a new profession. A bad one will kill her group and no one will group anymore with them as leader but they still would be allowed in a group. SL not as leader could lead to them never being allowed into any type of group as they are a danger to the group as a whole. Retreat or charge and enhance aggro etc at the wrong time on the wrong person is a death sentence.A few bad experiences will lead to nerfing of SL skills (probably a reduction in abilities) or people never allowing SLs into groups.
What I do not understand from the DEV point of view is that they once said, switching the targets with volleyfires will never happen since this would affect the actions of an other player, and since players dont like their toons controlled by other players should be avoided and would never be implemented (but we still kept retreat)
There were several discussino like the from keldarin states groupoptions to set which were all thrown away since they woudl just make things over complicated and is was said either you group withe a squad leader and agree to his commands and is doings ( in case of retreat) or we wont give you such abilities (like swithcin targets) at all.
AND NOW we have not only one but ALL our abilites effect ALL toons in our group IN SEVERAL EVEN MORE CRUCIAL ways and that even WITHOUT THE NEED TO BE GROUPLEADER, so the regular player cant give the SL his indirect consense anymore at all. Any random SL who joins is group can affect his toon the way the SL likes it.
Great outcrying and nashing of teeth for the nerfbat do I see if this goeas ahead as planned. We are for lack of a better word "hosed".
_scout_ wrote:
Ackehece wrote:
Multiple SLs giving contradictory commands is a possibility with the changes and even griefing is very very possible.
A SL who needs to be a leader to use their abilities will either be a good SL or they will move on to a new profession. A bad one will kill her group and no one will group anymore with them as leader but they still would be allowed in a group. SL not as leader could lead to them never being allowed into any type of group as they are a danger to the group as a whole. Retreat or charge and enhance aggro etc at the wrong time on the wrong person is a death sentence.
A few bad experiences will lead to nerfing of SL skills (probably a reduction in abilities) or people never allowing SLs into groups.
What I do not understand from the DEV point of view is that they once said, switching the targets with volleyfires will never happen since this would affect the actions of an other player, and since players dont like their toons controlled by other players should be avoided and would never be implemented (but we still kept retreat)
There were several discussino like the from keldarin states groupoptions to set which were all thrown away since they woudl just make things over complicated and is was said either you group withe a squad leader and agree to his commands and is doings ( in case of retreat) or we wont give you such abilities (like swithcin targets) at all.
AND NOW we have not only one but ALL our abilites effect ALL toons in our group IN SEVERAL EVEN MORE CRUCIAL ways and that even WITHOUT THE NEED TO BE GROUPLEADER, so the regular player cant give the SL his indirect consense anymore at all. Any random SL who joins is group can affect his toon the way the SL likes it.