Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader Revamp Looks Great... Not required to be a Group Leader is a _GOOD_ Thing!
I agree. Forcing a SL to be the GL in order for their skills to be active is a bad limitation that prevents multiple SL's to be used (in taste/tactics), and it helps in the delegation of authority.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 09-04-2005 09:30 AM
4. Not having to be the Group Leader is just the best! I really hate having to take away the "group leader" duties in a pre-formed squad. If you want to lead raid parties you can do it. Or you can just empower your people. Being the "Group Leader" does not necessarily mean you are the group leader. It's a title only, giving us the ability to use our specials independent of group leadership means we are flexible. We can CHOOSE to just join a group and help it out, or do the administrative portion of the group. Making it a requirement to be a leader of the group is a NERF. Why nerf ourselves? If you want to be group leader, then that is your choice. If you don't, then that's another good thing.
- everybody can dabble a bit in SL and can apply buffs to the team. To make sure that a team with 8 SL dabblers won't be able to shred a team of 25well-cooperating jedi (if that will ever happen) without using any coordination, the buffs must be kept in check. (I admit that i am "slightly" overexagerating, but i guess you get my point.) As a result, the single buffs have to be and will be rather weak, as there can and will be plenty of them around. From my point of view, we'll then be a dabbler profession with limited value and limited strength... in this case, i prefer not to be revamped.
- the buffs we can give are strong and have make a difference. This is what i actually want, the profession has to be strong and has to matter. But if everybody in team can give strong and meaningful buffs, the profession is breaking the game in many different ways, which will automatically call for a nerf. And before we take the nerfbat by getting our abilities reduced to low effect so a whole team of SL can use them and the system still is balanced, i would rather accept to limit the number of people who can apply the buffs and have those buffs to be strong.
4.a. And to find more than 2 squad leaders in the server active at one time is quite rare, so I really wouldn't worry about too many cooks in the kitchen.
5. Overall, the new squad leader revamp looks great!
Ackehece wrote:
/sarcasm on
as the smugglers always saythey don't smuggle
so I guessSLwould be inthe same situation Squad Leaders not leading.
/sarcasm off
...and swordsman use hammers
I totally disagree with the Idea that SLs should not have to be group leader. It is the role of the profession. To control and coordinate how a group works. That has to involve being allowed to accept in and kick out players who do not follow directions. It also has to allow for a centralized command structure. If two people give contradicting orders now the last one always applies. All the commands are available to any SL now. As group leader if you suck as a SL you won't have groups. Fine makes sense to me. As a non group leader SL and you suck you would never be allowed into groups because you can get everyone killed Leeroy style. The profession naturaly has to be gated in this way. If you do allow multiple SLs and they don't have to be leader you will allow for massive griefing potential or just plain stupidity. EG: Calling retreat while fighting in the DBW - poof all action and mind pools are gone and regen is negative... no healing or other actions... party dead etc. The skills are to powerful to allow multiple members in a group full access to them.
Don't get hung up on the profession name. SLs will be able to lead and probably do it better but, now they won't they won't be required to fill GL functions unless they want to and there will be a role for more than one SL in a group. Maybe they need to keep an eye toward how all the bonuses stack but that has little to do with this decision that makes SL more playable and easier to find groups within which to work their magic.
I really don't see how multiple SLs make more griefing possible. A squad leader who talks himself into the group leader role can reak the same havoc and not be able to be kicked without scattering the group. Now, at least an SL who is a stranger can be added to the group with a trusted GL retaining the ability to kick him.
There are people in the game who use the SL tag so they are always the group leader for good and bad reasons. Some are actually good leaderswho can make their own groups or let their deeds speak for them selves to attain GL spots and some just want an excuse to control the loot by waving their SL tag around.
Change the name if it bothers so many but, this is a good idea they have presented.
Sake Ohara
Ackehece wrote:
/sarcasm on
as the smugglers always saythey don't smuggle
so I guessSLwould be inthe same situation Squad Leaders not leading.
/sarcasm off
The problem with that analogy is that"groups" and"squads" are not the same thing. A "group", in game terms, is up to eight players who are linked together for communication purposes, loot sharing, and information sharing. Group members don't have to be fighting the same thing at the same time much less even be on the same planet. A perfectly vaild group could consist of a few crafters sitting back in thier houses, a few players up in space, and a few players spread across the planets fighting different things. A Squad Leader has no more business being the administrator of such a group than anyone else in it. A Squad Leader's job is to lead squads. A squad itself is nothing more than two or more players working directly together on a specific combat goal. The devs are using the group system for controlling how the squad leader's actions effect other players, however that does not imply that groups and squads are now the same thing.
Look at it this way... The grouping system essentially does the same thing that the guild system does, only for much shorter periods of time. Demanding that a squad leader always have to be group leader makes as little sense as demanding that a squad leader always have to be a guild leader. I think too many people are just getting caught up in the fact that both squad leader and group leader have the word "leader" in their names. If it helps, just imagine that the name for group leader is actually "group administrator".
The only valid arguement for forcing squad leaders toalso be group leaders is if it turns out that having multiple SLs in a group is too over-powered, however a much better fix would just be to limit the number of SL buffs that can be active in a group at any one time.
oops, double post.
Message Edited by Imaridril on 09-04-2005 12:04 PM
Iceovekan wrote:2. Making the buffs active is just great. This does not encourage the use of an alt to run a looping macro (i.e. retreat) - (a)
4. Not having to be the Group Leader is just the best! I really hate having to take away the "group leader" duties in a pre-formed squad. If you want to lead raid parties you can do it. Or you can just empower your people. Being the "Group Leader" does not necessarily mean you are the group leader. It's a title only, giving us the ability to use our specials independent of group leadership means we are flexible. We can CHOOSE to just join a group and help it out, or do the administrative portion of the group. Making it a requirement to be a leader of the group is a NERF. Why nerf ourselves? If you want to be group leader, then that is your choice. If you don't, then that's another good thing. - (b)
4.a. And to find more than 2 squad leaders in the server active at one time is quite rare, so I really wouldn't worry about too many cooks in the kitchen. - (c)
5. Overall, the new squad leader revamp looks great! - (d)
- (a) Making the buffs active is a two sided sword and since I wasnt able to test, I dont see any benefits in having the passives buffs turned into active ones besides cluttering my toolbar and keeping my from my work, namely LEADING the squad/party/guild/raid/attack/defense.
- (b)Frist: If you dont want to lead dont be a squad leader. Either you are a squad leader or not.
Second: And even if you are not experienced enough, to lead an attack, you still can become the administrative boy of the group, when you play the communciatcion officer for the guy who has the experience, but in that case you would had still to face the responsibility.
That was the way I had learned it. I became group and my guildmate told me how to direct and lead the group.
Third: So you are a squad leader but dont want to lead (sure about that?) . Okay guess what, you dont have to. I had base raids where me BE was leading the raid, SHE - Master Bio Engineer - was giving the directions, setting the stage of attacks and taking care of the slicers - I was just the sergant kicking her troops butt to make sure that every command got heared, so whats the problem, with me being the groupleader? - NONE, all your arguments of NOT being the groupleader ARE NOT VALID since they work BOTH WAYS!
- (c) I have two MORE MASTER SQUAD LEADERS in my guild, I REGULARY IF NOT ALWAYS HAVE THREE MASTER SQUAD LEADER ON AT THE SAME TIME ON MY SIDE OF THE FACTION WAR. I DONT WANT THEM ALL IN ONE GROUP WASTING THEIR LEADING SKILLS BUT RATHER EACH IN THEIR OWN GROUP.
- (d) The Squad leader revamp is out, now lets start making it a squad LEADER revamp not a squad BUFFER revamp.
- (e) If those ppl who are NOT Squad leader could please stop telling us how we shoud do what we do? Although we value your opinion, dont spam us with your ideas, posting it more often doesnt make it more right or will you earn any more respect in the squad leader forum. If you have valueble and well thought ideas as well arguments to support your opinion feel free to post them but be aware that the squad leader community might be a different opinion. Stop waisting our time.
Again posting an OPINION more often doest make it more accepted
_scout_ wrote:
- (d) The Squad leader revamp is out, now lets start making it a squad LEADER revamp not a squad BUFFER revamp.
That's not really possible. You can't approximate "leadership" with skill boxes. A player either knows the proper tactics for a specic dungeon/enemy or he doesn't. Grinding out skill boxes won't magically give him that knowledge. The best the squad leader proffession can ever hope to be is simply a collection of tools that allow players with natural leadership skills to better lead, i.e., things like system messages, painting targets, and giving squad members specific buffs that can help them better complete the specific task you just told them to attempt.
Here's an analogy of what I'm trying to say... If a player is a Master Architect, one of the proffession titles he can choose to wear is Interior Designer. He'll be able to craft all sorts of furntiure and houses to put that furniture in, but if he does have the knack for decorating, he's not going to be a good interior designer. By the same token, a non-architect who buys all his furniture off the bazaar can quite easily be a much, much better interior designer than an actual architect.
Imaridril wrote:
_scout_ wrote:
- (d) The Squad leader revamp is out, now lets start making it a squad LEADER revamp not a squad BUFFER revamp.
That's not really possible. You can't approximate "leadership" with skill boxes. A player either knows the proper tactics for a specic dungeon/enemy or he doesn't. Grinding out skill boxes won't magically give him that knowledge.
The best the squad leader proffession can ever hope to be is simply a collection of tools that allow playerswith natural leadership skillsto better lead,
i.e., things like system messages, painting targets, and giving squad members specific buffs that can help them better complete the specific task you just told them to attempt.
You said it yourself, but I wouldnt limit it to natural leaders only. IF you point them into the right direction they can learn it, but for that you need also to face the responsibility.
Having multiple squad leaders in one group isnt helping in that case.