Squad Leader Archive

Ok hopefully I won't go to far with this analogy, but the puppeteer issus can easily be parralled by comparing Democracy vs. a Dictatorship.

Yes a Dictatorship offers some great benifits, especially in efficiency. It can pass laws quicker and enforce them better. Much like a puppeteer can control a group better, and protect its group better.

Yet people still prefer a democracy because of freedom even at the cost of increase risk and lengthy procedures.

Ok enough anology before I dig myself into a political hole.

I play for the enjoyable experience, and as a leader or a group member I want that experience and not to be controlled. And yes I prefer groups to soloing, that is why I chose sqad leader so I could benefit the groups I was in.

The icons mentioned by Holo I believe are a GREAT idea for SLs, allowing us to paint targets for attack or medical attention, without forcing the members to switch. I dealing a command to switch to the painted target will also be implemented as well as a bonus of buff for doing so (Increase accuracy, or Healing, depending on type of icon). This would allow the SL to LEAD the group, provide benefits yet still allow the members of the group to have a FULL gaming and grouping experience without being controlled.

We have a long post on the suggested squad leader upgrades here that parallels this discussion..

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=3079&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Please read, and then just say no!

I don't buy this "Puppet" position at all.

a) People can join by their own free will unlike a Pet

b) People can leave by their own free will unlike a Pet

c)A good Squad leader will use his abilities at the critical moments and save the day by ensuring the squad behaves as a cohesive unit. (See a)

d) A bad Squad Leader could abuse his abilities and piss people off (See b)

There is a cost associated with invoking the skill and between that and the overcharge shot costs it should never be the efficient way to use under all conditions. Under those pinch situations where you absolutely must remove a threat immediately it's worth the cost to use and is.

There is no loss of Free Will. People can still ditch if they are pissed but I'll tell you plain and simple a moderately skilled Squad Leader that uses this ability will be a power multiplier for the party and will earn them more experience, faction and reduce downtime.

Feliz

Just a quick note. In a good party there is always a Leader that calls the shots. Who to hit and when and what to avoid and where. To succeed, especially in a challenging scenario this is totally critical. Shouldall parties be subject to anarchy and chaos because people don't think it is right or fair that they are being told what to do?

The people that I've seen take that position are usually people that prefer to solo and not the types that go on large hunts (Or get everyone killed on large hunts)

Feliz

Fidgiter hit it in the head with his first post.

A good SL will remain AS group leader. An abusive SL will find himself with no group.

Just like idiots that go along in groups and keep using high damage weapons on lair whiletheir group gets slaughtered by the loads of spawning mobs...but they keeps hitting nest because its good XP for them.

A Squad Leader's role is to make the group fight better and to ensure the survival of the squad members. This cannot be done by issuing a volley fire order or whatever order and waiting for the squad members to NOTICE the order (which in the middle of a fight is extremely easy to miss) and then react to that order (decide yes/no to follow order, then move mouse across screen to click on attack commands or change targets).

Because by the time that happens, it will be too late. Group Reaction Time is a NEGATIVE factor that a Squad Leader should be able to eliminate by using the 'puppeteering' command.

These puppeteering commands as you call them, are what people will look for in a squad leader. If you are so worried about giving temporary command of your character for about 1 or 2 rounds of combat so that your entire group can survive or perform exponentially better in combat, then you DO have an option: Find a group without a squad leader (or better yet, if the little checkmark byyourham bars idea i put above is put in game,youcan just de-select it and have your char NOT follow any SL commands..but you wont get his bonuses either).Easy. Its not like there's hordes of us around you know.

It is by far eaiser to have someone on protect for the healer, it is easy for the healer to lose agro in this game and even a moderarte healer hunting on Dath should be able to survive 3 rounds or so by using his own heals. (If I can do it with Medic and SL then a dedicated healer should be able to).

You issus your command, your puppets aquirer and fire on your targer, what happens to the say 2 or 3 other targets they were fighting? Sure one or two may be on a pet but if one slipped the pet aggro to attack your medic then one may slip to attack another party member. Yet another call for Puppteers.

You seem to think Leadership requires you to control your squad. These are not the same. A good leader can get things done without forcing, in this case making pets of your teammates, by his ability to command efficently. I hunt Dath, I hunt Dant, I hunt Endor and have never felt the need for this type of control. I do agree that maybe a up in dammage and better success for the volley but outright control of another "free willed" individual is just wrong. And to those that bring up the army, our charcters are not in the army (as regulars anyway) and every soilder has the right and duty to refuse any command that they feel is unjust or dangerous. There may be concequences but they still have that ability.

The "time delay" you sight is a red herring, if a medic cannot survive a few rounds while someone gains aggro, which in this game simply means stand closer to the mob, then he should not be hunting on a advanced planet.

What is your next request, a command to force the medics to heal when and where you want, cause they may not be watching the ham the same way you are?

Do I fear these commands, no I can see their uses. Does the non Squad Leaders fear them? Yes they do. Look back to the responses after things like this were first proposed and you will see it. It will be a boon to groups that trust you (your normal friends) but to others we will have to gain their confidence all over again. Be very careful when you wish for things that allow you to control others directly. I do like the check box idea, no benifits if they dont want them, maybe that is the middle ground this type of command needs.

TevooRerio has this one right. The /volleyfire should do two things. Open a timed window of opportunity (perhaps longer at higher levels), set the target as your next TAB target, and give an increasing bonus for each group member that targets and fires at the target. I would also recommend highlighting the target somehow.

This sould make SL very useful to the group and a good SL would not abuse this ability.

And this is what volley fire is all about putting a maximum amount of firepower where it will do the most good.

I would recommend a +5% to hit AND DAMAGE bonus for each group member that had the target selected when the shot was made. In a large group this could mean +100% to hit and damage, but anyone who has a problem with that want to volunteer to stand 64 meters in front of a marine squad when the SL shouts 'Volley Fire'. *grin*

The Squad that I lead has been more or less together since the game went live. I'm fortunate that this is the case, as we've become a well-oiled machine that often anticipates others actions. The group still allows me to lead them, making decisions on direction, target, when to camp, etc, etc.

I'm not interested in forcingmy squad members to do anything they don't want to do. What I ask of the Squad Leader profession is to give me tools to better send them orders (again, up to them if they want to listen or not. I trust my squad as they -hopefully- trust me).

While I cannot say if Volley Fire, as intended, should or should not be in the skill tree, I would very much like to see a command that allows me to (out of combat) have my team target the same target that I am. My current methodology is to select a target and shout out it's health and action numbers. If the targets are unique enough, I can also /pointat it to further tell my squad who the primary target is. If I could automate this, it would save my squad several moments, and perhaps our lives during those costly, but understandable mis-targets.

During combat, use the /sysgroup message to tell your squad what your orders are. Often they'll listen, and if they do not then it's probably because they are facing a more pressing matter at the moment - and one that you should become aware of immediately.

In short, SL XP is easily obtained. The profession needs fixing and it will someday happen.In the meantime, lead your squad well, and you will be met with success.

I sorta figured vollyfire should cause everyone in the squad to make one shot against your target and then go back to whatever they where shooting at before. the damage would be something like the average of all shots multiplied by a modifier based on volleyfire bonus and number of people in a group.

I think that the Volleyfire shot should be a single shot by all party members directed against the target chosen by the Squad Leader. It should not interrupt your que, but insert a single "Volley Fire" shot into slot following your current action. It should not change your target, but if previously you had no target it would select the Squad Leaders target for you. It should be able to initiate combat, and it should have a damage multiplyer of about x5. Basically, with a party of 20 a one shot kill on most creatures and Player Characters unless they have very good reisitances.
I have used the Volley Fire shot in PVP several times to fairly good effect, but it should realy do more damage, fail less frequently, and cost less mind. Realistically, if 20 guys are shooting a concentrated barrage of fire at you, you're probably going to go down.
That's my two cents
Serial Killa
Kauri Server

I've read the proposed changes to the SL, and I've been following the player debate about them...and I'm not sure why so many people are screaming bloody murder about this so-called "puppeteering". I played EQ at the raid level, and man we would have loved to have a command that automatically changed the group's target to Mob X. As it was there were a lot of workarounds involving a Main Assist, a Secondary Assist, etc. And even then, some idiot would not be paying attention and would be attacking the wrong mob.

You don't need to use a command to change everyone's target all the time, just in select situations, like a crowded camp where you want to quickly get rid of a certain mob, or like in the example above where the Doc is getting pounded on. This is NOT puppeteering, this is just a nice game mechanic to get everyone on the right target. If you are so outraged about it, don't group an SL sheesh.

Just my opinion hehe.

I can't believe what I'm reading here. Do people not understand why SL is one of the least used professions in Galaxies? I am a Master Squad Leader on Kauri and I am still waiting for an entire modification of the class. Plain and simple, the current SL skills are not effective. How does a single shot volley fire assist the SL in taking out tough targets? Volley fire needs to be a means of total concentration of fire on a single target. This does not mean the SL has to take full control of each group member's player, but it should mean that visual ques are given to make the skill useful. Every player has a free will to accept the SL's request or continue on his current target and we shouldn't take that away. However, a good group that can trust their SL will watch for the que and obey the commands if they feel that there is an advantage.

You have to remember that SL is a support and command role. We get no personaloffense advantages like many of the other classes. Our true advantage is in the collective strength of the group we lead.

exactly.

Volley Fire should be something an SL should be able to use to concentrate massive firepower on 1 target.

Right now it doesnt do that.

Changing the Group's target to yours is 1 way of doing it. But it has it has its negatives as well.

IDEALLY the volley fire would make everyone in group fire a really damaging shot at SL's target and then go back to their original targets (as it is now, except that now the damage is insignificant). However, this would cause massive exploits by an SL stuffed to max with chef buffs, doc buffs and spices, spamming that command and literally owning every PVP encounter or having group drop a krayt dragon rather quickly.

Another way would be to make the SL drop everyone's weapon spd to the cap (1 second) and have the volley fire last for a fixed 5 seconds (average of 1 or 2 combat rounds) then the cap speed is returned to normal weapon speed and group members go back to shooting their original targets.

Normal fire damage of a pistol/rifle/carbine on normal is around 200-300..so in a volleyeach player in group would do aboutthe damage of5 normal shots, at 300 max would be 1.5k damage. A group of 10 would do 15k damage. Volley fire individual shots are of course subject to all resists and accuracy modifiers, so not all shots will actually land, perhaps reducing the average damage of a 10 player group to about 9k.

And with just an increase in the HAM cost for the volley fire command (and of course, a +40 equivalent in volley fire bonus at strategy4 so it will actually go off), then the volley fire would actually help a group without puppeteering... because the SL would still be taking the same 1 (or perhaps 2) rounds of combat they 'steal' from the group now, but the SL's target receives rather noticable damage.