Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader Fortifications 1.0
I like the idea of having architects build them. It would definetly stimulate the precious player-based economy.
Graphics would be necessary. Otherwise it's not a bunker. That's like saying, "Why do camps need the tents and cots?"
I envision these as defensive structures. You wouldn't set one up when you're attacking because you are mobil. Like someone said, you are best defended when you are moving, but what if the base provided the same ranged/melee (not as much melee) defence as movement, but without the accuracy penalty?
Will post more later. RL calls now.
Official Squad
Leader Fortifications Proposal
Much discussion has taken place over the past month or two about what the Squad Leader community would like to see added to our other wise functionless profession. One of the more popular ideas which has received support for multiple professions has been the ability for Squad leaders to construct temporary structures called fortifications.
What is a Fortification?
A fortification would be a temporary structure that would provide a defensive location from which a group would receive many befits, including such bonuses as increased melee and ranged defenses, increased damage to targets, increased accuracy, and bonuses to Squad leader Skill modifiers (this is assuming that SL skills are going to be fixed at some point). There are numerous options for what they could do. In addition the amount of the bonuses and the number of different types of bonuses can vary depending on the type and level of fortification. The focus of fortification use would be directed toward large scale PvP combat. A group lead by a Squad leader would be able to bunk up in a Fortified structure to hold a critical position, like the entrance to a Player Association building or Player owned Faction HQs.
color=yellow>What
a Fortification is not.
A fortification will not in any way be a camp. One of the reoccurring arguments proposed against this is that Fortification will be too much like camps. However there is only one aspect that both of these share, and that is they are both temporary structures. But Fortification will not provide any of the function that ranger and scout camps provide. The focus of camps is for healing and recuperating after a battle, while fortifications will focus on providing support during those battles.
Fortification Suggestions
- Sand Bags Stack – would provide a very small amount
of increased ranged defense. However sand bags could have one special function
that other fortifications would not have, this would be that (if it’s possible
for the DEVs to program) sand bad could be used inside designer cities. This
would be useful for cities like Anchorhead which deal with a heavy amount of
PvP combat.
- Trench – would provide more ranged defense then sand
bags, but can not be used in developer cities.
- Reinforced Trench – more improvements to ranged
defense, at this level bonuses to Squad leader skills could begin
- Sniper platforms – this is a new idea that has not
received much discussion yet. the generally idea is that unlike other
fortifications it would not provide defense bonuses but instead could be use
by one or two range weapon users to increase weapon range, and accuracy.
- Bunker - this fortification has received that
majority of the support form the community. Bunkers could provide exceptional
increases to melee and ranged defenses as well as decent boosts to Squad
Leader abilities.
- High Tech Defense
Station – this would be one of the better fortification
possibly master Squad leader level. Basically a more improved bunker.
Arguments Against Fortifications
They are too much like ranger
camps
True they are a temporary structure similar to what ranger
camps are, however, they do not do anything ranger camps do. So fortifications
would not take away form anything rangers have. Also one of the requirements for
Squad leaders is the entire Survival tree from scout. Fortifications would be
the logical next set form this skill line for the Squad leader profession. In my
personally opinion, the rangers that are threatened by the addition of
fortifications are those that are unhappy with their profession, and feel that
the camps they have are nothing but “eye candy.” They seem to be threatened by
anything that even remotely resembles something that they could possibly have as
a future addition, even if the idea is really better suited for another
profession. Again this is my personally opinion.
Rangers are
supposed to be getting hunting blinds in the near future
I read the developer mention of the hunting
blinds and it is for the most part vague and uninformative of what exactly they
are supposed to do. From the name alone I have guessed that it would provide
some kind of bonus to PvE combat, possibly a to-hit bonus to creatures. Maybe
even confuse creatures as to the location of its attackers for a short time,
sort of a surprise attack kind of thing. Well that’s fine if this is what a
hunting blind is supposed to do, but if a hunting blind is supposed to do any of
the thing we have discussed for Fortifications then I think it would be better
in the hands of the Squad Leaders. I have no problem with the hunting blind
idea, it sounds like a great addition to Rangers for hunting purposes, at the
same time fortifications would be a great addition to Squad leaders for PvP
purposes.
I would rather
see rangers get something like this so we can be more effective in PvP
combat
I think I will let one of the Ranger communities own state the counter argument to this point: "... as a ranger I think this idea is great. We already have a certain portion of the Ranger community who want Rangers to be more effective in PVP but my opinion is that no matter how much we want to, we cant be all things to all people. I indorse the idea of allowing a SL to fortify a Ranger camp. If a Ranger wants to be a Military style Ranger with PVP benefits then they should spend points on SL. I hope our correspondent NRass reads this and will begin working with the SL correspondent on getting this implemented."
- BaneShee
size=4 color=yellow>Issues
color=red>Crafting
- no one has come up with
a perfect plan for who should craft these kits. Some of the upper level
fortifications could be too complicated for a SL to be able to craft alone. We
could do several things for this issue, such as give the schematics to either
the ranger or architect profession so they would have to craft the fortification
kits for us. Or Squad leaders could make the final craft but would require
crafted components that only rangers or architects can craft. There’s no easy
answer, and there is also the combat engineer profession to consider (if it ever
gets added). Recourse for camps would be different depending on the
fortification, sand bags would most likely need fiberplast panels and some type
of mineral that would be crushed into sand. I’m not an expert on recourses so
I’m probably not the best person to be touching on this subject. But
fortifications will probably need to be a bit more complicated to craft then
camps.
Turrets - lets not push it people. I know we need some major changes made to
our profession but I think weaponry is going a bit too far. This could be an
addition to the fortification that combat engineers could provide, but I don’t
think this is something we should be able to do.
Squad Leader vs Ranger - in all honestly rangers don’t have any ground to
stand on for most of their arguments. They have a working profession, and by
working I mean they have skills and abilities that perform a function (area
track, camps, traps). True the traps aren’t anything too special, but at least
they work... Squad leaders have maybe one working skill out of our entire
profession. I can see why ranger feel threatened by this idea, but please!
Consider the fact that you guys at least have a working profession and ours is
busted beyond belief. I wish you guys luck in having your profession improved
but please at least let us have Fortifications. We need this desperately.
Skill mods - I’m actually kind of surprised no one has brought this up yet.
But SLs already have skill mods to increase melee and ranged defenses, and while
they really aren’t working what happens if they get fixed down the road? Well
from how I understand these skill mods work is they are added to what ever
defenses the individual members of the group already have. And one of the
problems is once that player reaches the cap for that mod they bonus no longer
applies. This would be a problem for the fortification if the cap for individual
player defense skill mods is taken into account. Therefore I have come up with
two ideas, 1) while in a fortification, group member receive the increased
defenses even if they excide the skill cap. Or 2) while in a fortification the
amount of damage group members receive is reduces dramatically to the point
where it would be almost impossible to kill any of them before they can kill the
attacker, but the fortification itself could be targeted and destroyed.
Combining - one of the main reason rangers are so supportive of the
fortifications idea is that we have discussed a possible use for these kits to
be able to either place them around or otherwise combine the fortification with
a ranger camp. I can see how this might be a difficult concept to be programmed
in, which is why I left this idea out of the opening proposal. I think we would
all like to see camps and fortifications being used together, however as it
maybe a difficult thing to program id rather see us get a stand alone
fortification first and then add the ability to combine with camps later.
Support
- oddly enough in reviewing who was for and who was against this idea it seems we have a majority of support form rangers. This tally was done a few weeks ago and does no include new data from this week but the trend has not seemed to change. I collected a list of 40 names of those 35 where for and only 5 where against. Of the 35 for fortifications, 10 are confirmed rangers and 8 are confirmed squad leaders. This data was taken form 2 threads one posted on the SL forum and the other on the ranger forum.
Conclusion
While I believe that the most important priority the development teams needs to focus on is to fix the skills we have now, before they move into new content I still feel very strongly about this idea. I think fortifications could be one of the best possible additions to the Squad leader profession that would make us a valuable asset to the SWG world. Fortifications would not take away for Ranger, in fact most ranger are very supportive of this idea and want to see it added to our profession.
Resources
ack sorry about the double post i didnt mean to do that, and gesh could they make writing this stuff in HTML any harder? i that one paragaph should have shown up in black i dont know why id did. sorry it did come out looking as nice as i woul have liked it. i think i touched on just about everything.
any way lets get the dicusion going, any one see anything o forgot or think i need to add or change anything?
Thulium wrote:
I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss the idea of a Squad Leader weapon like Turrets. Think for a moment: With the exception of Smuggler, every other Combat Hybrid profession gets a unique weapon. Besides, who is to say that the Squad Leader will be the person operating the turret??
true, but i dont think we would know enough to be able to craft and set them up. besides i though turrets operated on AI power.
also our profession is based on player unity, so our abilities need to represent this as well. if we as a SL can set up an improved camp, surround it with a trench and plop down 3 or 4 turrents we'd probably be able to solo some pretty powerful enemies.
i agree that we are a combat support profession just like combat medics are so it would be nice if we could have some kind of unique weapon, but turrents are just too complex for a tactican, it would have to go to a technical engineering profession like the combat engineer or a wepaon smith or vehical designer.
Folks...with /sys, Rally, Volley Fire, Form up and various defensive bonus' WE are the weapon, or ratherwe turn a team into one.As Leaders our job is to help our team succeed. Like creature handlers we are at our best when staying back and using our abilities to help the team fight the battle. Ours is a selfless profession. I have mastered tracking and camps in Ranger becuase I thought both of those items were useful to my teams. I will be sad when I have to give them up just so I can master SL and a weapon system. And I need a weapon system because sometimes the group is small, or I'm soloing because of the time of day, and definately a strong weapon in defense is needed against PvP. More about weapons later.
Fortifications are a great idea. Why did we have to master camps in Scout if we weren't going to use them or something like them in SL? SL camps could compliment Ranger camps. Ranger camps go away when the fighting begins. That is where ours would come in to play. the concept of a 'Fire Base' if properly fleshed out could be a very fun addition to the game.
A Fire Basecould be set up to take 'X' amout of hits, then be destroyed. It should very much add a defensive bonus that compliments our abilities. For instance; within the Fire Base we are more likely to Rally or Volley Fire. Our mind cost per command could be reduced within the confines of the base.Mobility might be the tree to addbases to. At each level there could be a different set of things like sandbags for I, Trenches for II, etc.
In regards to individual weapons. Although the point system is set up so we can choose to master any one particular weapon, I don't like the idea we are supposed to get Ranged weapon abilties, then we get nothing after thatunless we chose a certain weapon, or remain stuck in Master Marksman. All that needs to be added here is '+10 personal weapon' so whatever weapon we use (Rifle, Carbine, Pistol) gets a bonus as we climb the tree.
Bottom line? If one thing were to be added, I would choose Fortifications. I also believe we should be the ones crafting them.
Great concept, excellent thread. Great ideas.
I still think that this is an ability that is best to be unlocked by SLs for architects. it actually gives architects something to do in combat. I believe combat engineer should be a designation that SLs can put on architects, and their architect level will determine what fortifications are available to them. SLs should have the role designation ability, which will allow everyone in their group to perform special abilities for their class that are combat and direct combat support specific.
I despretely want to see fortifications in the game, I just believe that wed be better to see them with arcitects and not SLs.
NarCranor wrote:
I still think that this is an ability that is best to be unlocked by SLs for architects. it actually gives architects something to do in combat. I believe combat engineer should be a designation that SLs can put on architects, and their architect level will determine what fortifications are available to them. SLs should have the role designation ability, which will allow everyone in their group to perform special abilities for their class that are combat and direct combat support specific.
I despretely want to see fortifications in the game, I just believe that wed be better to see them with arcitects and not SLs.
i dont have a problem with architects crafting the fortifications, but SL should be the ones to use them. i cant really speak for arcitects, but they are a crafting profession, if they wanted to take part in combat then they probably wouldnt have choosen a crafting profession.... besides the crafting combat profession is supposed to be the combat engineer which they havent added yet.
and again Arcitechs are a working profession, we are not, we need new skills that work
1 thing to add....
*ranger camps sould be an optional ingredent not something to combine
depending on the level ranger/scout camps used the bonous to hit/defence increases
also the heal mod increases
*you would also have armorsmiths have something to do with the construction like armor plating
*weaponsmtihs could make spikes and such
/bumping because it's constructive...but I have 2 creds to add anyway.
A sandbag-type fortification should be craftable by the Squad Leader and usable basically anywhere, including interiors so they can help a group get through dungeons, etc. The full-fledged and armed camp fortifications might need some help from an Architect, but should be relatively cheap to craft since they are basically disposable items.
I think that certain levels of fortifications should buildable only around camps, but could be added to most ANY type of camp. So if a Ranger isn't available to pop a nice uber Base Camp with crafting stations, etc., the Squad Leader isn't left useless since we have the ability to make Improved Camping Kits on our own from the Survival skills we needed to get SL in the first place.