Squad Leader Archive
Thread: FEEDBACK: The Group Leader Issue
I have worked with alot of Jedi lately, butI dont worry about them to much, they seem to be able to take care of themselves. I guess I have play with to many "me" people lately.
Aye... Jedi have the habbit of going their own way. There are a few among them who take orders and actually are helpful for the group. There are also a few (usually the same) who have some understanding on tactics and can pretty well evaluate battle situations and give appropriate orders.
But there are way too many of them who usually do their own way.
I mean, heck... we are the slicer team, took a few people along for support... i give the order to move to the base as vulnerability time is ticking and the base won't wait for us... tell the people to ignore the single hostile SF player at maximum radar range. What do i have to seeobserve? All the teammoves here, except the Jedi, they use forcerun 3 to chase behind an enemy who is using forcerun 3 to escape them... in that case, the temptation is high to throw them out of the group in the hope that perhaps somebody turns up who is actually helpful for the team.
Anyways, as said, not all Jedi are like that... but Jedi is the only profession which can be used like that in PVP, every conventional playerhas to learn soon that he's not a one-man-army and can operate without support.
Well I should mention back when I did PvP we had a very well organized group and everyone did listen to me on base raids. Im not a logistics person, but a field commnder. So I would make sure we had at least ten people in the base to defend the slicers and all.
I havent worked with a decent PvP group lately as it seems to have become all jedi. I miss the old days 
We have the usual mix on our server too, including Jedi. Some will go off on the first red dot that appears anywhere on the radar. Others will stand next to the slicers regardless of what's going on ourside, simply because the raid organizer ordered them to watch the slicers.
Its the well-disciplined groups that almost always succeed, as if that's a revelation to anyone on this forum.
As most Squad Leaders, I do not have a problem with the Squad Leader not being the group leader to perform his duties. I agree that having multiple Squad Leaders in the same group can become a problem with conflicting tactics, and result in an overpowering group that will lead to a nerf. Here is another way of many to fix it.
There should be a set of the SL abilities that only the Group/Primary Squad Leader should be able to use. This would be a setting by the group leader similar to the loot feature. If a Squad Leader joins the group, the group leader will have the ability to set the Squad Leader as the Primary Squad Leader. The Primary Squad Leader would be the only SL able to issue the following set of commands..
Group/Primary Squad Leader
- Group System Message - Sends an on screen system message to all group members.
- Called Shot - Significantly increases the accuracy and damage of the next attack to the designated target. Only works for one attack and then must be reapplied. The accuracy and damage bonus increases as the Squad Leader learns more skills.
- Rally Point - Creates a waypoint for all group members.
- Paint Target - Increases the accuracy and damage for all attacks to the painted target in the next 20 seconds
- Second Chance - Equalizes all damage and wounds across all group members in the area. This ability has a very long recharge time.
- Retreat - Significantly enhances group movement speed for a short duration. Prevents all other combat actions.
Defensive (one per Group)
- Call to Arms - Adds to the groups Armor Effectiveness.
- Tactics - Adds 150 points to Defense.
Offensive (one per Group)
- Blaze of Glory - Adds 50% chance to Critical Hit.
- Steady Aim - Adds 150 points to Accuracy.
- Double Time - Reduces cool down timer on all Macros/Abilites. This does not effect item cool down timers.
- Boost Morale - Adds a 10% Action and a 10% Mind regen buff
- Form Up - Adds a 50 points to Terrain Negotiation
- Charge - Significantly enhances group movement speed for a short duration. Using this Buff reduces the defenses of the SL.
And of course the single target buffs, which should be applied by any Squad Leader in the Group (up to 8 if there is a group of all squad leaders)
Single Buffs (one per Squad Leader)
- Toughen - Increases the armor rating of a single group member.
- High Yield - Increases the damage output of a single group member.
- Verbal Assault - Increases the amount of aggro generated by a single group member.
- Combat Feint - Decreases the amount of aggro generated by a single group member.
Now this doesn't address all the problems, and it's not perfect, just another possible solution and something else to think about. Enjoy.
Message Edited by Mavhawk on 09-13-2005 01:03 AM
.Further I know that your post was a sarcastic one, but still let me say something to two things you mentioned in that thread.
Norbert wrote:
...
I picked it so I could help groups play better. (a)
...
I just don't see how you can build a game mechanic that will MAKE someone be like a real Squad Leader. (b) To me, that is outside the game.
(a) Yepp, we all picked that profession to help groups play better, either through our buffs or, and thats where the squad leader emphasis is on, through our leadership abilities and those, and there you are right, dont come with the skill boxes.
There are a lot of different support profession, which all help groups to play better, we got the Doc with his buff and healing ability, the CM with his debuff ability to the target, we got the crowd controler and we should have the squad leader, who should give an tactical advantage in general (I ll explain this in a second) but now we just get another buffer (I do like a lot of those abilities, as they can be an tactical advantage but in the end they are just buffs, again Ill explain in a second what I would rather have than buffs).
(b) And your right, there is almost no ingame mechanic that will make someone be like a real squad leader.
Almost, there is only one very painfull one which was the one when you had to earn squad leader xp while grouped and being the groupleader.
Although that the groupleader ship is only a technical position within the game, you were forced into that position with that responsibility. That never meant you would have to lead that group but you were exposed to the others as one who was/is in charge of at least that. And with 20ppl groups that could be a huge responsibilty. You had to learn it in that position.
Now with 8ppl it isnt realy an issue anymore. 8ppl can fairly organice each other.
Norbert wrote:Wow! I tried to read through most of these posts, but thought I'd insert my novice SL opinions in here. Some of these may have been hashed over, so if they have, just ignore me. (c)
I think there is a disconnect between someone that can lead a group and a game mechanic that enforces it, and I think there should be. (d)
The person that actually leads the group, by telling them where to be and what to do, should be someone that has played long enough to know these things. To me, this has nothing to do with what skills you have in the game. (e)
It is about experience and good judgement ... Being a SL doesn't mean you know how to run a group. (f)
Sorry, but it doesn't. You earn that on your own. Not through some game mechanic. (g)
The good SLs won't necessarily be the one's telling everyone what to do, but also applying their buffs to the right people at the right times. .... Knowing how to play SL will have a little more tactics to it..... (h)
[... the rest ...] (i)
(c) Nope Sir, nobody gets ignored, Opinions are welcome as long as they are presented in a suitabel form. We, or better I, do though expect ppl to at least read what has been posted so they catch up on the flow on the discussion, so not every thing is repeated all over again, although it is relevant to raise your opinion in favour for one or an other idea.
(e) Yepp your right and we all agree on that, grinding Pistol XP doesnt make you a good leader, neither does the skills and abilities you earn with that give you any of the abilities to realy lead a group as a leader better than someone else that realy has leadership skill and that is where we come to:
(d) + (f) as well as:
This is where I have to disagree, as well as have to say that this:
Luxora wrote:Most natural leaders pick Squad Leader, which increases their effectiveness by giving them tools with which to better their squad.
is not the case.
There is currently amost no reason why somebody which real leadership abilities should favour the squad leader profession for another support profession, or even a jedi, besides only two of our old abilties (which are volleyfire as well /sys).
A person which real leadership abilties can lead a group as good from his jedi (on Ahazi demonstrated very well by coban) as those ppl who play a SL template and that is where I personally think the squadleader revamp, as nice as it is now on TC is slightly aiming into the wrong direction.
In my personal opinion there should be a link between leadership abilitiis in real life and game mechanics.
The game mechanics should give the squad leader the tools you need to lead your ppl, they should be tactical and communicative tools as well as abilities that enhance the group (like the current buffs), BUT I would rather have more tools to direct my players toward a certain strategy I, as in the leader of the group, have in mind. (direct not force)
With this new SL revamp those abilities realy benefit a person with real leadership skills are expaned to just one more, besides /volleyfire and /sys, namely /rallypoint which gives a waypoint to the whole group.
Abilities I would like to have seen implemented, which would realy make the squad leader profession wanted by ppl who realy want to lead groups would be
- groupway points - as in rallypoint
- single player waypoints - so I can hand each member an own waypoint to set up certain formations
- formations - "moving waypoints" so the group knows which position to hold while moving
- target cue - I want to enqueue the targets with big numbers, so my group knows which are priority targets as well as to keep them focused (eg./sys All target target 1, smuggler take care of 2 and 3, when 1 is down concentrate on 4)
- an overhead mapview - to try to use terrain to my advantage while directing the group
- active waypoint setting with routes - like the yellow arrows you have to follow to set routes along which I want the group to advance
- multi/sub group support - to combine larger scale tactics, where I can have one group flank my opponents
- SL to GL /SL communication tools - to easier direct other groups, something that makes me easier to identify the groupleader of the other group again better organice multiple groups, which is again pretty close related to multi/sub groups
In fact you might say I want all those tool those ppl in the commander position have in the new first person shooters.
Those communication and character leading tools would make a squad leader a wanted profession among ppl who want to lead ppl, not just to buff them up.
Im a RTS player
, I love tactics within the game and see real players carrying out my tactics and being successful with them. I love the teamwork thats needed for that. These abilties would give an tactical advantage, in terms of better organiced and better directed and lead group, over one without an Squad leader, what i mentioned above. Not just simple buffs but realy better layout and conducted plans, tactics and strategies.I also do know that a lot of my personal wishes are not realy implementable, and I do see the benefit in the current squad leader revamp, but again personally, I would like to have "an other set" of abilties than rather "just buffs"
.With the new set of abilties, especially with the long duration the squad leader profession will have the squad leader will just be a squad buffer profession as you stated in (h). There is not realy an tactical advantage to that, regarding quick decisions in mid combat, since you just put them on. It just boils down to know when to know what buffs or which buffs to combine to get the most benefits, which is pretty as much as like a CM has to know in which order he has to apply his debuff to get the maximum effect. The leadership role is totally lost
.(i) in the rest, I agree pretty well with you
EDIT.
the skills Im mostly looking forward too are
rallypoint, verbal assault as well as combat feint, since these could help me carry out certain tactics in PvE better
Message Edited by _scout_ on 09-13-2005 11:38 AM
I have to admit, most of my experience is PvE, in which case I believe most of the tactics, such as designating waypoints,are not really necessary. I think those would be more useful in PvP, correct? I can see where PvP group leaders would want more tools and SL being the conduit for those tools, which would bring the Leader vs. Game Mechanic closer.
I do have to disagree that the new buffs will turn SLs into merely buff factories. of course, I will add a disclaimer here that this is specualtion from what i can see on paper. As I understand it, we can not just spam all our buffs, but will need to decide when and what to buff. The tactics of when to apply the buffs will be the new skillset needed for SLs. As_scout_ said, we have what we used to plus somewith regards to directing groups, soif you are using those SL skills to "lead" then thatshould be no different than it is today. If you are a leader today, you will be a leader after pub 24. Now, in addition to those tools, and the Rally and Volleyfire abilites, we have the selection of other buffs that we can employ in our grouptactics. Now part of your role of leading the group also allows you to help manage the welfare of the group.
Today, I could just spam Rally and Volleywhenever the timer comes up, but it is much more efficient for me to use them when the time is right. I'm not even thinking about using them when we have 8 on 1. After pub 24, we will not only have those to help the group, but we will also be able to help manage aggro, damage, and damage mitigation. Keeping an eye on the group and knowing who is where and doing what will be important. Knowing when to add more defense or more offense, whether to the group or to an individual, will be a new skillset for SLs to master.
Here's the kicker. This all depends on if we actually do have to be selective. If we can maintain ALL group buffs and most of the inidividual buffs, then there will be no strategy and we WILL just be buff factories. This is why I hope group buffs are somewhat limited and additional SLs in groups should have limited abilities. We'll see. I hope it adds a little excitement.
As far as FOTM, I don't think this will be the case, because what I have seen from FOTMs has been "what can make ME uber" and this will not fit in that category. Although, i could see CH+pet using it. They do count a player+pet as a group with regards to SL abilties, right? They shouldn't.
Norbert wrote:I have to admit, most of my experience is PvE, in which case I believe most of the tactics, such as designating waypoints, are not really necessary. (a)
I do have to disagree that the new buffs will turn SLs into merely buff factories. of course, I will add a disclaimer here that this is specualtion from what i can see on paper. (b)
As I understand it, we can not just spam all our buffs, but will need to decide when and what to buff. The tactics of when to apply the buffs will be the new skillset needed for SLs. (c)
...
After pub 24, we will not only have those to help the group, but we will also be able to help manage aggro, damage, and damage mitigation ... This all depends on if we actually do have to be selective. ...
If we can maintain ALL group buffs and most of the inidividual buffs, then there will be no strategy and we WILL just be buff factories. This is why I hope group buffs are somewhat limited and additional SLs in groups should have limited abilities. We'll see. I hope it adds a little excitement. (d)As far as FOTM, I don't think this will be the case, because what I have seen from FOTMs has been "what can make ME uber" and this will not fit in that category. (e)
(f)
Although, i could see CH+pet using it. They do count a player+pet as a group with regards to SL abilties, right? They shouldn't.
(a) Most of my experience come from PvE too, still I would love designated wps or formations. I could set up a line, wedge or any other formations where I could designate each player a certain position within the group he has to keep, while we go into the DWB or corvette, split up my group to three melees in a wedge followed by one CM with four ranged and me in the back going into larger battles, PvE or PvP, could try a line with 2 MCarbs, three spamming Fullautoarea and 2 suppressionfire on high lvl mobs to see if we can crowndcontrol them that way, ...
(b) + (c) currenlty on TC buffs last 10 or 20 minutes, dont know how fast you can switch them but the duration takes out a lot of decisions to apply them, if they would be shorter you would be forced to decided in MID combat, what is the right buff, as it is now is more like food, "guess" what might be important and switch it on. The durations is too long in my personal opinion. I would rather have stronger short term buffs than mid or low longterm ones.
That way its more challenging to use them as well as prevents overstacking.
(d) as well the underlined stuff: so far we dont need to be selective if two or more Sl are around, the current tested values (see on of the testing TC threads) point out that a single buff is pretty powerfull. Already with two SL you can just put one offensive and one defensive and again no need to "use your grey matter between the ears". So far there is not limitiation, a single tree will be enough for two FOTM who can just pick two of the buffs available in that tree. Stacking complete.
You hope for the best, I fear for the worst. I wish you will be right. We got no DEV reaction on this so far.(e) For the FOTM when he gets grouped as I mentioned above as soon as he gets into a group he will benefit from his own buffs. There are already reports from in live that ppl are grinding SL exactly for these buffs, have two dabblers one taking strategy and one tactics they have the most powerfull offensive and defensive buffs at their hands, have four of them and they can buff up all four. Stacking complete, nerf tobe followed soon. Again you hope, I fear
. I wish you ll be rigth in the end but I learned to fear the worst, and get it even more worse when Im dealing with SOE and SWG.(f) Captainsarcasmo ? Reading this ? Can you test this out ? CH + PEt + SL on TC ? Thx if you can if not, well have to wait for the impact on live i fear ...
We got no DEV reaction on this so far.
Small correction on this, Keldarin only shortly ago wrote that he read throught the numerous suggestions and thinks that there is some nice stuff among it.
[So a /cheer on this part.]
Unfortunately he also wrote that he thinks that implementing them (he noted the thing with skill modifiers, means he marked the best suggestion we made, in my eyes) could take too long still before bringing the changes to life.
[So a big /sigh on this part.]
Anyways, he didn't say that the next changes are final, so i at least hope that either he still takes and finds the time to make everything allright before the changes go to live, or he afterwards improves the system according to our ideas, instead of just quickly nerfing, in case that the problems wich we are afraid of will turn up in live.
[So here we have to /hope. And just to be sure, also /poke Darth_Sushi]
Sylow wrote:
Small correction on this, Keldarin only shortly ago wrote that he read throught the numerous suggestions and thinks that there is some nice stuff among it.
/poke Darth_Sushi]
darn must have missed that, checking on that now ....
thx
/sal
and
/poke Darth Sushi
EDIT
/cheer!
The keeping buff when leaving group was a bug!
/cheer
He realy read obsidianswraths post!
/cheer
the 100m restriction will prevent SL AFK buff bots!
/bounce
Yeah!
Maybe hell will freeze too!
Message Edited by _scout_ on 09-14-2005 01:38 AM
_scout_ wrote:
(f) Captainsarcasmo ? Reading this ? Can you test this out ? CH + PEt + SL on TC ? Thx if you can if not, well have to wait for the impact on live i fear ...
i would be happy to try. unfortunately i have not met a ch on tc. i have my doubts that this issue would change any at all from the way it is in live,but given the opportunity i will definately check it out.
captiansarcasmo wrote:
_scout_ wrote:
(f) Captainsarcasmo ? Reading this ? Can you test this out ? CH + PEt + SL on TC ? Thx if you can if not, well have to wait for the impact on live i fear ...
i would be happy to try. unfortunately i have not met a ch on tc. i have my doubts that this issue would change any at all from the way it is in live,but given the opportunity i will definately check it out.
Yes, I hope the buffs are shoter rather than longer. I think Rally and Volleyfire are pretty good right now. They both require you to be a little bit selective in use.
What if the limitations to non-GL SLs were the individual buffs? Can you apply these inidividual buffs to yourself? I don't think you should be able to. That would kind of make sense even in the role-playing mode. An SL that is not the "leader" could still use his skills to help individuals in the group, but only the GL could affect the group. Yes, you could still have some overlap, but with the proper timers and the limitation to other-only, it should limit the abuse, as well as FOTM.