Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Official: Your Comments on the New Abilities
Shuyunh wrote:
"From my experience, if the doodoo doesn't hit the fan every once in a while then the raid is to trivial for the group and everyone gets bored. Its when the going gets tuff thatyou need the flexibility that a good team brings to the table the most. Your teams ability to respond to crisis is what makes a group great..."
I agree with all those points. Being in a group that can achieve something that few or no individual members thought could be done is the ultimate. And this can best be achieved simply by having a well trained, discipline, and trustinggroup.
Shuyunh wrote:
"Not only will trying to puppet master your way out of it likely fail, it takes away from the enjoyment of being in a group and playing the game in the first place."
I'm just not sure why, in the proper situation (total chaos for instance), you think /groupattack is likely to doom the group. Among other uses, I see it as a useful last ditch effort to regroup and refocus in the middle of a fight.Maybe the group is doomed anyway, but this coordinated strike could pull things out? I really don't see a good Squad Leader using this more than, oh I'll say 5% of the time or lessinsolid groups that know their business. But that 5% of the time, when immediate, focused firepower could save the day, I think any group would be glad to have it there.
Sure if a SL tries to micromanage an entire battle with these commands it will be very difficult just for them to concentrate on what needs to be done (let alone the cost to his mind bar), a large battle will overwhelm practically any micromanaging SL veryquickly, his squad needs to know what they're about. Perhaps these commands should be regarded for emergency use only. But in those emergencies it'll be very nice to have.
Ok, let me paint a PvP picture. 20 on 20, both groups at a deadlock at max range. Darting in and out taking pot shots most of your group is targeting the enemies in front. You're squad's holding your own. But suddenlyin groupchat you get a messagefrom Bob on your far leftflank that a tightknit clump of enemies are closing fast from that direction and among them is aknown combat medic about to poison your whole group, trouble is near closing fast. Assuming Bob knows to targetthe combatmedic you have a couple options, and what like 1-5 seconds to execute.
1) Hope everyone see's Bob's message and types immediately /assist Bob (assume no one has Bob on main assist macro). Or hit's Bob's group crtl-# and hits assist. Or tabs thru (very time-consuming)the clump ofbadguy flankers to find the medic. Basically youhope/trust your team to take initiative tohit the combat medic as soon as possible. But will it be soon enough?
2) You can type an ALL CAPS /sys or /groupchat msg requesting people to hit that CM asap. Each person will have to make a judgement as to weather or not they're going to follow that order and when. This will take longer than #1, but will likely get the attention of more people. Meanwhile, tick tock till area mind poison...
or
3) You canctrl-#Bob or click his name in group window and hit your "/groupcover %TT" macro key...Wham! CM pancakes coming right up.
If it works as I really really hope it does 20 blasters will rip thru the enemy CM and then everyone willautomatically goback to their original targets. They would get back to their original targetssooner than they would if they had to think and did the /assist Bob themselves. Notice they certainly can do #1 at anytime on their own, so if you're not paying attention to Bob a well drilled squad will still rise to meet the new threat.
Further, if you Assigned positions based on flanks, say Bob and the right flank are in the "FrontLine" position (note: doesn't mean they have to be melee or anything, just a sub-group designation). You could just "/Frontline groupcover %TT" (or however the command works out) and thus not sacrifice any crucial activities on the other flank (which may be out of range) or your own medics in Support.
Sure it's not the be all end all uber ability, but it just gave you an edge in a previously evenly matched or perhaps losing fight. Suresome people gave up their autonomy for one maybe two rounds to mow that medic down, but out of the dozens of rounds of fired per minute I'd say that's a small sacrifice for the good of the group. I think most in the group would agree in this case.
I'm just trying to illustrate the possibility that these commands are not utterly useless. They do in fact have a time and a place.
Shuyunh wrote:
"Squad Leaders should not try to be the hero. The hero's are the tanks fighting off the mobs, the pistoleer who peals off an add to give us more breathing room, the medic thattimes the heal just right so you can continue to fight on even though 5 other people are getting whacked at the same time and they are all still fighting it out. SL's simply provides an environment wherehero's can step up and show their mettle. That's what its all about, IMO."
I totallyagree with that. The squad leader(and really any regular group leader) has the difficult challenge, irregardless of these new abilities, to make sure everyonefeels like they're contributing usefully and saving the day in their own way, while still filling their rolein the group.
I'd like to think of us more in terms more of being an Orchestrator than a puppet master. And I think if we use the new skills prudently and wisely, I think most others will see us in that light as well.
-Psquire
If it works as I really really hope it does 20 blasters will rip thru the enemy CM and then everyone willautomatically goback to their original targets.
TychusTM wrote:
That's what Volley Fire is (theoretically) supposed to do already.
Given a choice between a working /volleyfire and /groupcover, I'd pick /volleyfire.
Why? With /volleyfire, I can duplicate the effects of /groupcover:I target Bob, /assist, and then /volleyfire. /groupcover would combine the /assist and /volleyfire into one keystroke, which is nice, but there are also times that I might also want to use /volleyfire without /assist. Will /groupcover work for that?
In my mind I'm equating/volleyfire with /groupattack.Only, supposedly /groupattack can beordereddirectly to one of the three sub-group Positions. My understanding is that /volleyfire applies tothe entire group. Also, my interpretation is that /groupcover makes everyone /assist your lookat target, thus making everyone attack Bob's target.
Also, and here's where I need help cause I haven't used volleyfire, but from what I've picked up from other posters is that /volleyfire forces the group to attack your "look-at" target (the blue targeting reticle on screen) one time and then return to their orignal targets. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but if you "look-at" Bob (he'll be blue boxed) and then /assist him, you'll start attacking his target, but it will be Orange Boxed on your screen, and Bob will remain Blue. Now if you order /volleyfire won't the system try to reconcile on your blue look-at target, namely Bob, figure out he's not attackable and skip that attack altogether. Again, I haven't done this myself, it's just what I've seen from using /assist. Anyonepostingexamples would be great. If my understanding is correct then /groupcover does something that /volleyfire cannot do.
Also, does volleyfire in fact make everyone hit (non-special) for one and only one round and then return to their original targets, or something else?
I'm just trying to illustrate the possibility that these commands are not utterly useless. They do in fact have a time and a place.
TychusTM wrote:
I've never disputed that. However when you have a whole profession full of abilities that you'll only use once in a blue moon, is it really worth the skill points?
I don't mean to argue with you specifically. Butin general, there are alot of postseverywhere in this forumwith a flat,blanket statement of "useless" out there without any reasoning to why.Some folkshavelaid out good reasoning on why some of the skills are useless 99% of the time. And that's good those points need to be voiced. I'm just trying to open people to the usefulpossibilities that might actually arise, beforeeveryonedismisses the whole set of functionality out of hand.
Is it worth it? That is a good question. Honestly, it doesn't really look like it from what we know now. I've used fairly pristene examples to illustrate some small, various uses, but in reality these situations will probably be few and far between. Probably too far to wait forand sit on the skill hoping thatyou can use it that one time. But perhaps the more we think about thepossible uses for these skills, and teh tactics they enable, maybe we can come up with a lot moresituations where these skills can be used. If we can establish enough of these, then yes, it might just be worth it.
I will say this though,IF Offensive stance is a Level 4 or master skill and it provides sweet group offensive bonuses (I'll say justfor example a +5% increase to speed and damage per every member in the group, so a 20 person group would see a 100% dmg&speed increase. The defensive debuff can be anything if that's the case.), if we get something like that, pipe dream I know, but then hell yes, hands down it'd be worth it, everything else would be icing.
Thanks,
-Psquire, still holding out hope
Having VolleyFire force-target the entire group to my look-at target is why I became a Squad Leader, and I don't think that this version of /volleyfire is along the lines of treating my PC's like puppets. They already trust me to direct battle, they ask me what to attack, they look to me for guidance and strategy because that's my job.
Multiple groups, stances, marching orders - none of these or most of the proposed ideas would be nearly as effective as being able to automatically do what we already do anyways. I think the ideas of being able to see everyone's mission waypoints, conferring our waypoints to everyone else in the group, and the other communication ideas are nice: I would like to have them, but nothing is more important to me than just being able to really use working versions of what we already have.
FIX WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE BEFORE YOU CHANGE ANYTHING.
If it works as I really really hope it does 20 blasters will rip thru the enemy CM and then everyone willautomatically goback to their original targets.
That's what Volley Fire is (theoretically) supposed to do already.
Given a choice between a working /volleyfire and /groupcover, I'd pick /volleyfire.
Why? With /volleyfire, I can duplicate the effects of /groupcover:I target Bob, /assist, and then /volleyfire. /groupcover would combine the /assist and /volleyfire into one keystroke, which is nice, but there are also times that I might also want to use /volleyfire without /assist. Will /groupcover work for that?
I'm just trying to illustrate the possibility that these commands are not utterly useless. They do in fact have a time and a place.
I've never disputed that. However when you have a whole profession full of abilities that you'll only use once in a blue moon, is it really worth the skill points?
Ill be REAL brief for a summary of feelings for all the new skills, everything I think has been stated more then once.
Assign positions and offensive/defensive stances: good, the TYPE of skills we need (passive, not too controlling)
Smoke em if ya got em: Good also, another of the TYPE of skills we should have. Would be nicer if you changed it to something about keeping group focused and upped the regen of mind rate a little bit as well outside of camp)
All others: Dont want to rag on what I havent tried, but the idea of me CONTROLLING another player upsets me. I went the SL route to be helpful to groups, to be around people at camps for interactions, and to be their friend and companion. Any CONTROLLING skills will make me less apt to find people willing to join group, even if the control skills are used right MANY of the combat types (usually the achiever type) will become annoyed. One bad experience with our class will taint a person for a long time about us. It will also make many less apt to be my friend.
Commissar Nova Cerrick,
Squad leader/carbineerfrom TCON, on wanderhome
TychusTM wrote:
As a leader, there's no way I'd take that feeling away from the group by trying to dictate their actions. I'd rather get wiped out.
Indeed. And not only would I reset my SL abilities as well as some of the pre-requisites, I'd never again team underneath one for fear it would happen to me.
These skills are bad for ANY multiplayer game.
(On a humorous note: especially forgames played by people who work! I play GAMES because I want to relax, and have fun, not be TOLD what to do! If I liked that, I'd still be at WORK!! 
)
TychusTM wrote:
As a leader, there's no way I'd take that feeling away from the group by trying to dictate their actions. I'd rather get wiped out.
This is a treasure. We should turn it into a slogan.
I'd rather beWiped Out thenPuppet Mastered!
Can anyone come up witha better one?
After talking with a bunch of my guildmates who bascially all agree that if the new SL abilites get made, they will go on a crusade to rid the galaxy of SLs including me, I have come to the conclution that I would rather see a HAM cost drop, Successs Rate increase and to make the skills and bonuses we are supposed to have work, as opposed to new abilities. If we are going to get abilites I would rather them be along the lines of giving us advantages in faction. Why does the smuggler get !0% off faction perks? that should be something and SL gets, but oh well thats just what I think.
Azre'el Blain
Let me try that slogan again...
I'd rather get killed thenPuppeteered!
Does anyone know how I can get a bold purple in my signature box?
The abilities that are currently being proposed need to be canned now!
Nagy-Gorath wrote:
-Assign Position:
The group leader can assign group members to "Front Line", "Support" or "Ranged" squads. Group Attack, Cease Fire, Group Cover, OffensiveStance, DefensiveStance, Hold Fire and Fire At Will can then be directed to these individual squads
-I LIKE this, it gives an advantage of a squad leader over a non-squad leader leading a group (the squad leader needs to be able to give commands or bonuses to seperate groups though)
The way I read the description you can direct different commands at different "Position" sub groups (ie you can order "Ranged to/groupattack" and "Support to /groupheal"simultaneously and each Position will only execute the order directed at it. Same sub-division for OFF/DEF stance bonuses). If, by separate groups, you mean to say that one squad leader can say give bonuses to 2 groups of 20 people, then no I disagree with that, I don't think this is what you mean though, just clarifying.
-OffensiveStance:
Gives the group a temporary bonus to damage. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers defense
-DefensiveStance:
Gives the group a temp bonus to defense. The bigger the group the better the bonus, lowers damage.
(i.e. Assign your tanks to "Front Line" and enqueue DefensiveStance on the front line group, then assign the ranged guys to "Ranged" and enqueue OffensiveStance on that group, etc.)
- I like these though I do agree with people who brought up the issue of exp due to damage delt. These might be more useful in the PvP aspect then hunting. Also the bonus of the stance should outweight the penalty.
Valid issue, but don't take the example given to literally. It would be a good tactic to let the melee "FrontLine" peeps charge while in Defensive Stance (so they take less damage while closing), and when they get in range switch them to Offensive Stance (so they can dish out as much damage as the "Ranged" positionand therefore a shot at just as much XP). Meanwhile you keep your medics in "Support" position in fulltime Defensive Stance so they can take more hits and thus keep the other peeps alive that much longer.
And I totally agree that the Buff should significantly outweigh the Debuff. No one yet knows how it'll shake out, yet everyone has rushed to judgement on it.
I think there's a lot more strategy to these proposed skills than the brief off the cuff seeming examples posted by the devs lay out, and I for one at least, am still excited to try them out.
Thanks,
-Psquire
I think the forced march is a move in the right direction. Maybe also add some benifits to a group that is in formation. Better heals? Better defense? Better Offense? Otherwise id never bother with it. And it cant be negligible!
Id also like to see an ability where you force your squad to fight while you flee. Id have fun with that one.
Loytal wrote:
Id also like to see an ability where you force your squad to fight while you flee. Id have fun with that one.
Hrmm... I hope you are kidding... If you are not, well then all I have to say is:
"It is people like you that make the Squad Leader changes a bad thing!"