Squad Leader Archive

Okay, quite a few fragmented arguments have been voiced while I've been away, and I'm going to try to respond to them all in one post. I apologize if this seems "splintered" or disjointed at all, as a result of it.

xakia wrote:

So basically the OP wants SL buffs for his [her]Jedi and for it to be unaccessable to BHes.

Don't want a Bounty Hunter to be able to attack a Jedi whilethat BH isgrouped? Do you even put much thought into your post? Some of us use droids vs Jedi. Hell, Creature Hunters Bounter Hunters would love this feature, I'm sure.

I'm sorry bud but to make an entire profession useless against Jedi is completely insane. You're just going to have to deal with it. They've already toned down SL alot (which was needed) You don't need to piss and moan until its worthless again.

MTOSVEN wrote:

Great posts by everyone!

I have a MBH Master rifleman, I carry around a 1343 max damage Trando Rifle.

If I can time it right, I can one hit incap CL80 players and Jedi....Squad Leader is not the problem lol. If your not wearing armor I have hit for over 3k damage with advanced sniper shot....and this is with out the new SL changes.

As for SL buffs working for BH and Jedi...whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Either they both can have them or neither of them can have them. Sides some players could roll play getting advice from their Squad Leader commanders before going out on the hunt. I personally only hunt imperials...so whos to say that I wouldnt get a debrieifing and cordination from a rebel Squad Leader before going out on a mission for the rebellion. Its all how you look at it.

Now....no one likes getting one shot, but for jedi....stay off the terminals...LOL (god dont ya hate that saying!!).

Now as for Jedi, I plan on being in as many MSL groups as I can, whos to say that a Squad Leader cant lead them as well. Smugglers give them spices, docs give buffs, chefs give foods, weapon smiths give weapons, Tailors give you B.E. clothes to help you in your battels, squad leaders give combat buffs in groups.

Rylarth wrote:

In episode II fett has a shapeshifter drop a snake in amidalas/padme's room remember? so saying its purely solo and no outside help should be allowed is simply not true and simply not realistic, now how far doyou want to go by disallowing outside help.

I believe if a BH who is also a SL should be able to get the benifits of SL. Think of it this way a BH/RM can use any of the rifleman skills a BH/Doc can use any doc buffs/heals, a BH/CH can use his pets etc. How can you say that a BH is not to be allowed to use the SL skills that he has invested time and effort into aquiring spent 121 Skill points on just because you think this profession is more yours thanhisand he has no right to have it because you are on some kind of ego trip?

Rylarth wrote:

It seems to me you do have an opinion on liking disliking, it seems to me you have some problem with BH.

I like this part, Yes thats exactly what a BH/SL would do, it makes sense (a military general who has lead great numbers into battle has learned many things about combat and can then use those things he has learned to lead himself)he would lead himself all the way talking to himself giving himself pep talks, have you never given yourself a pep talk when something seemed hard to accomplish? "Come on You can do this" or "Come on I can do this"

ValinDalsace wrote:

your proposal is good in theory but many Bh's use their droids VS jedi... taking droids from the BH profession will never happen... time to go back the the drawing board (A grouped droid is alot better than an ungrouped droid )

Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 10-18-2005 03:18 PM

Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 10-18-2005 03:22 PM

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ObsidianWrath wrote:

You do not want Squad Leader so that you can lead groups. You want Squad Leader so that you can "pwnz0r 1337-h4X FTW!!!one1one!" Jedi players. You could care less about the entire charter, foundation, and purpose of this profession ... which isdefined in itsname by being in the presence of others.

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Rylarth wrote:

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ObsidianWrath wrote:

You do not want Squad Leader so that you can lead groups. You want Squad Leader so that you can "pwnz0r 1337-h4X FTW!!!one1one!" Jedi players. You could care less about the entire charter, foundation, and purpose of this profession ... which isdefined in itsname by being in the presence of others.

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Ok you got me I just want that 5000 one shot kill hehe but seriously I see where you're coming from you have even made me thing of taking up an SL charfor legitimate reasons with no BH in the tempheh but I don't think your ideas are the solution, maybe it would be better if when the BH initiates the TEF with the first shot that that first shot can only be a special he possesses and the damage cannot be altered with SL buffs only the normal damage of the specialthats the simple solution.

I don't agree with Jedi being able to have the buffs and I don't agree with the BH not being able togroup idea.

I have changed my mind a few times during my first and this post and I think what you're doing is definatlywith the best intentions for your profession but theres a saying the road to hell is paved with good intetions and I think this is ultimately going to get SL nerfed before it even gets buffed. I like the idea of having that kind of high damage in PVEfor dungeons etc. maybe there could be some way to not allow this kind of high damage in pvp period. I don't know this is just my thoughts.

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As I said in the first post, and in my other recommendation thread a few weeks ago that was pushed into implementation by the Devs, I don't claim that my proposals are a "perfect" solution. Obviously I agree with them, and I will attempt to explain my reasons for such, but at the end of the day I leave everything in the hands of the Devs, and hope that they will make the best choice.

To be honest with you, regardless of what ultimately happens, I think that this thread has accomplished its goal. I hope that it is at least a part of the reason why the Publish has been postponed, and I hope that the Development team comes to a decision that rectifies the most immediate problem, which is a vastly unbalancing issue in the game. Through sparking conversation, argument, and debate ... some of it flaming and some of it civil (which I honestly prefer and respect), it has drawn attention to the issue. The main thing that we can all hope for is a resolution that will not completely slight one side.

If the Devs honestly feel for reasons that I cannot foresee that there are easier solutions to the problem, or that someone else's proposal on this thread is more "balanced" in a game mechanic sense ... that's fine. I will be happy to have taken part in creating conversation and deliberation on the issue. The main thing that I keep trying to emphasize in this thread is that I'm not really focusing on balance, though. I am honestly of the opinion that it wouldn't be "unbalancing," given the nature of SL restrictions, for the Jedi to retain his one buff. I've stated why, and I won't rehash it ... and I respect the fact that you disagree.

My entire motivation, from the very beginning, has always been to fight to preserve the purity of my profession. I just want Squad Leaders to lead squads and help their groups in battle. That's all. If the Devs can find a way to preserve that purity, or at least most of it without making one side of the discussion feel like they've been shafted ... I will fully respect the decision.

Hope that clarifies. Thanks, again, for contributing in a civil fashion to the discussion.

• called shot gives its bonus of damage to the first attack of everybody in team _except_ the SL himself.

Just go through the points:

• boosting up damage of the complete team, the ability would still be useful at modifiers below +100%. (The SL might loose one attack, but several people in group gain the damage.)




• This makes the ability also useful when being only a bit into SL and still far from master.


• This keeps the ability useful, despite some "finetuning", wich also is known as "nerfing".


• in any normal form of solo combat, this change doesn't really hurt the SL himself. The current state gives the SL an effective +5% of damage output, which he would loose with this change. This doesn't sounds that painful, especially as it otherwhise can be expected that the ability will soon be nerfed, anyways. (Means, soon the single SL will loose effective damage output of this ability if the Devs do what i fear that they will do.)


• it would disallow one single BH to use the ability for the here discussed one-shot incaps.


• it would allow the ability to be used in a sensible way in any form of combat which relates to groups, so are in accordance to the SL philosophy.

Of course, useage in GCW would probably result in reduction of the damage modifer still, but i expect that to happen, anyways. But if the ability in the end "only" gives +50% damage for the complete team, it will still be a very helpful ability.

What would you think about this suggestion?

Message Edited by Sylow on 10-19-2005 12:07 AM

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ObsidianWrath wrote:

And as far as MBH / MCH hybrids go (as this was brought up to me in-game), MCH's group their pets so that the pet is CL80 ... but that's only for PVE purposes. Combat Level of pets (or players) in PVP is irrelevant, as we see from all the CL 73 Sword / TK-COB / Docs running around. So an ungrouped pet for an MBH / MCH wouldn't be at any ill advantage, either.

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Sylow wrote:

Yay! I am ashamed that it took me so long to come to this idea. I think it would work out even better than what we have up to now and is very simple:

• called shot gives its bonus of damage to the first attack of everybody in team _except_ the SL himself.

Just go through the points:

• boosting up damage of the complete team, the ability would still be useful at modifiers below +100%. (The SL might loose one attack, but several people in group gain the damage.)




• This makes the ability also useful when being only a bit into SL and still far from master.


• This keeps the ability useful, despite some "finetuning", wich also is known as "nerfing".


• in any normal form of solo combat, this change doesn't really hurt the SL himself. The current state gives the SL an effective +5% of damage output, which he would loose with this change. This doesn't sounds that painful, especially as it otherwhise can be expected that the ability will soon be nerfed, anyways. (Means, soon the single SL will loose effective damage output of this ability if the Devs do what i fear that they will do.)


• it would disallow one single BH to use the ability for the here discussed one-shot incaps.


• it would allow the ability to be used in a sensible way in any form of combat which relates to groups, so are in accordance to the SL philosophy.

Of course, useage in GCW would probably result in reduction of the damage modifer still, but i expect that to happen, anyways. But if the ability in the end "only" gives +50% damage for the complete team, it will still be a very helpful ability.

What would you think about this suggestion?

Message Edited by Sylow on 10-19-2005 12:07 AM

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Excellent idea. I'm assuming by everyone (except the activating SL) you are talking aboutthe tag ideaon the called shot debuff recording names of group members, and clearing them when they have made their attack?

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Excellent idea. I'm assuming by everyone (except the activating SL) you are talking aboutthe tag ideaon the called shot debuff recording names of group members, and clearing them when they have made their attack?

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Redondo wrote:

I respect your ideas and attempt to keep SL from becoming FOTM, but by taking away the ability for a BH to group you also remove the ability for them to group with their pet. You say this doesnt matter in PvP. Ungrouped pets means the handler is unable to easily monitor their Health and the states/dots applied to them. I am a MCM/MCH and have another character that is a BH, what most people dont realize is that for a MCH who has spent all those SP, the pet becomes half of all your combat abilities. That means keeping the pet alive.

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I realize you're quoting a post near the beginning of the thread and that you may not have seen the others, but one of the things I have asked of these MBH / MCH's is whether or not they would support the proposal if it were changed so that Squad Leaders must be grouped with players to apply Squad Leader Buffs, and that MBH's can only engage marks if they are not grouped with other players. It wouldn't be an ideal situation for Squad Leaders, but I'm curious to hear what your reaction would be. This would entitle you the ability to continue using pets and droids in groups, though I honestly do not believe that it is "that" significant an impact.

One other thing that I do want to mention to you is that I've always been a very strong supporter of Creature Handlers. Though the thread isn't around anymore, I had made an enormous post on the old "Mounts Unleashed" focus thread that rallied a large part of the Creature Handler community, and I still believe that post-publish 22, Creature Handlers are not powerful enough in PVP. Many of my friends have been and still are CH's, and I've been there helping them grind pets before ... believe me when I say that I understand your frustration at the inability to group pets.

To be honest with you, I don't think "grouped" pets should even count as a "group" ... and maybe that would be an even better proposal, though much harder to code and implement. Being that the Creature Handler requires the pet as their weapon in order to be effective in combat, I personally believe that they should be able to call them instantly, and extrapolating upon that make it so that an on-screen pet monitor is triggered as well ... like a "mini-group" interface.

The main thing that annoys me with the Devs' treatment of Creature Handlers, though, is the fact that they look at it from the wrong angle. They presume that the pet is the weapon of a full-templated CL80 combat character ... which is a far cry from the truth. The Creature Handler, pound for pound, is about half of a 'full-template' combat character ... with so many skill points tied up in CH, which provides virtually no direct benefits to the character. If the goal is to bring them into balance, I would say the "primary pet" or "triplets" or whatever should be more powerful than the Creature Handler. That's the only way to put the same degree of lethality into CH as you would find in a purely combat profession, to make up for the deficiencies in the CH's defenses, accuracy, and offensive power.

Furthermore, I think there should be a path in CH that's called "Veterinary Medicine," or something. I realize you guys get stims and such, but let's be honest ... they're terrible, and they're consumable. The Devs removed consumable stims from Medic / Doc / CM because they realized it was game-inhibiting ... and CH's should get the same ability. I think that a CH should be able to bolster their pet through abilities and healing the same way a Medic / Doc / CM dabbler can heal themselves in combat ... it's only logical, since nine times out of ten your fully-leveled pet is just going to get "owned" in PVP in about two seconds. Well, at least it's that way on my server.

But anyway, the point of the rant is simply to express to you that I'm not some sort of anti-CH nazi. I consider Creature Handler to be a sister profession to Squad Leader ... they're probably the two most similar professions to one another, anyway. I don't want to do anything that would hurt CH's ... but I don't think any proposals that would rectify the problem another way would accomplish the same goals. The Devs probably would not dedicate the resources to go back at this point and re-touch Creature Handler ... which frankly is a damned shame, in my opinion, since your Publish wasn't nearly powerful enough. If there's another way to do it, I'd be supportive of it ... I just try to keep things as simple and streamlined as possible, because I think it increases the odds of the Devs actually saying: "yeah, we could do that ... it's not too unrealistic."

Hope you understand a bit more.

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ObsidianWrath wrote:

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Redondo wrote:

I respect your ideas and attempt to keep SL from becoming FOTM, but by taking away the ability for a BH to group you also remove the ability for them to group with their pet. You say this doesnt matter in PvP. Ungrouped pets means the handler is unable to easily monitor their Health and the states/dots applied to them. I am a MCM/MCH and have another character that is a BH, what most people dont realize is that for a MCH who has spent all those SP, the pet becomes half of all your combat abilities. That means keeping the pet alive.

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I realize you're quoting a post near the beginning of the thread and that you may not have seen the others, but one of the things I have asked of these MBH / MCH's is whether or not they would support the proposal if it were changed so that Squad Leaders must be grouped with players to apply Squad Leader Buffs, and that MBH's can only engage marks if they are not grouped with other players. It wouldn't be an ideal situation for Squad Leaders, but I'm curious to hear what your reaction would be. This would entitle you the ability to continue using pets and droids in groups, though I honestly do not believe that it is "that" significant an impact.

One other thing that I do want to mention to you is that I've always been a very strong supporter of Creature Handlers. Though the thread isn't around anymore, I had made an enormous post on the old "Mounts Unleashed" focus thread that rallied a large part of the Creature Handler community, and I still believe that post-publish 22, Creature Handlers are not powerful enough in PVP. Many of my friends have been and still are CH's, and I've been there helping them grind pets before ... believe me when I say that I understand your frustration at the inability to group pets.

To be honest with you, I don't think "grouped" pets should even count as a "group" ... and maybe that would be an even better proposal, though much harder to code and implement. Being that the Creature Handler requires the pet as their weapon in order to be effective in combat, I personally believe that they should be able to call them instantly, and extrapolating upon that make it so that an on-screen pet monitor is triggered as well ... like a "mini-group" interface.

The main thing that annoys me with the Devs' treatment of Creature Handlers, though, is the fact that they look at it from the wrong angle. They presume that the pet is the weapon of a full-templated CL80 combat character ... which is a far cry from the truth. The Creature Handler, pound for pound, is about half of a 'full-template' combat character ... with so many skill points tied up in CH, which provides virtually no direct benefits to the character. If the goal is to bring them into balance, I would say the "primary pet" or "triplets" or whatever should be more powerful than the Creature Handler. That's the only way to put the same degree of lethality into CH as you would find in a purely combat profession, to make up for the deficiencies in the CH's defenses, accuracy, and offensive power.

Furthermore, I think there should be a path in CH that's called "Veterinary Medicine," or something. I realize you guys get stims and such, but let's be honest ... they're terrible, and they're consumable. The Devs removed consumable stims from Medic / Doc / CM because they realized it was game-inhibiting ... and CH's should get the same ability. I think that a CH should be able to bolster their pet through abilities and healing the same way a Medic / Doc / CM dabbler can heal themselves in combat ... it's only logical, since nine times out of ten your fully-leveled pet is just going to get "owned" in PVP in about two seconds. Well, at least it's that way on my server.

But anyway, the point of the rant is simply to express to you that I'm not some sort of anti-CH nazi. I consider Creature Handler to be a sister profession to Squad Leader ... they're probably the two most similar professions to one another, anyway. I don't want to do anything that would hurt CH's ... but I don't think any proposals that would rectify the problem another way would accomplish the same goals. The Devs probably would not dedicate the resources to go back at this point and re-touch Creature Handler ... which frankly is a damned shame, in my opinion, since your Publish wasn't nearly powerful enough. If there's another way to do it, I'd be supportive of it ... I just try to keep things as simple and streamlined as possible, because I think it increases the odds of the Devs actually saying: "yeah, we could do that ... it's not too unrealistic."

Hope you understand a bit more.

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Well I do understand your dilemma with BH/SL. The issue of pets is very complicated and although the new publish for pets has given us quite a bit of diversity, you are correct that the pet itself is weak in PvP. This however is an obstacle that many players overcome by using the right specials and right pets, all at the right time. As an MCM/MCH I primarily use a pistol as my weapon. In just about every encounter my pistol, CM attacks, and pets each do a third of my total damage, which is subpar for what most people hit with in PvP. Not to get into a big discussion about CH, so I do agree wholeheartedly with differentiating between players in groups and pets in groups. I wish they could code this in and not just for the SL issue. When I get into a group either grinding or PvP and it fills up, the pets are the first to go. This is a big hinderance to me in combat since I then have to constantly target my pet for updates on its health and status. I would also say that pets/droids should not considered part of a group as it relates to a "squad" in which a leader is theoretically leading players not pets. On the same note CH should and does to some extent have abilities like the SL that are strictly usable on the pets they own.

Anyway, I dont really have a solution to your problem although I do see where the problem is. I dont think removing groups from BH encounters is going to hinder a BH all that much, except for the added annoyance of grouping and regrouping when you encounter your mark. I just wanted to point out that grouping as a BH is not always about SL, since as a CH we already face an uphill battle with every confrontation.

On another topic, since i havent been following the SL forums much...are SL abilities able to be applied to pets?

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Redondo wrote:

On another topic, since i havent been following the SL forums much...are SL abilities able to be applied to pets?

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ObsidianWrath wrote:

Seems it wasn't all that long ago that I was writing a post like this suggesting a change that would wind up being implemented in the game. Well, I'm willing to take another shot at it. Regardless of how sound my idea was last time or this time, it was the support of the community for the idea that got the Leadership skill implemented. If you agree with this prospective solution to the BH/ SL / JEDI problem, please post below. As with the Leadership proposal, I don't pretend to claim that this is a perfect idea, so if you have constructive ideas to contribute, please feel free.

Okay, lately there has been a huge problem arising on the Jedi forums regarding BH/SL hybrids coming after Jedi and "pwning" them, for lack of a better word. Jedi are freaking out, going crazy over 2500 damage rifle attacks and what not, and to be honest I can understand their fear and frustration.

I am not a hugefan of Jedi in this game. I think there are far to many of them, but on the same token I don't want to see Squad Leader become a "/win" profession for Bounty Hunters, nor do I want to see our beloved profession perverted and twisted into something it was never intended to be. We are Squad Leaders. We are not "BH Buddies."

My proposition is extremely simple. Rather than change anything that has to do with Squad Leader (unless it is a genuine balance issue that needs tweaking for legitimate use in PVP), the changes need to be made to the BH TEF system:

1.) Change the BH TEF system so that Bounty Hunters may not initiate a BH TEF against a player Jedi unless they are not in a group.

This would not hurt the bounty hunter in any way. He gains nothing from being in a group, and frankly it is more Star Wars-centric to have a Bounty Hunter acting alone, anyway. Grouped bounty hunters are where prospective exploits come into play, and frankly I consider the solo SL/BH to be an exploit. It is a perversion of a system, using it in a way that it was never intended to be used.

Conversely, the Jedi should suffer no penalty from being in a Group, even with a Squad Leader. It is the Bounty Hunter's discretion when to initiate combat, and if he chooses to engage a Jedi that is in a group, he runs the risk of there being a Squad Leader buffing that Jedi. Jedi do not get to choose the time and place that they are engaged by Bounty Hunters. If a BH engages a Jedi that is in a group with a Squad Leader through no intention of fighting the BH on his own, it is the BH's mistake -- not a game imbalance.

2.) Change the SL system so that a Squad Leader may not buff himself unless he is in a group.

The purpose of this change is to eliminate the possibility of uber one-man Squad Leader/ Bounty Hunters. What the hell would the point of this be, honestly? There is none. It's a perversion of our profession, utilizing it in a way that it is not INTENDED to be used to exploit a system in favor of BH's. This is where our profession becomes free reign to dabblers, and this is where our profession runs the risk of becoming FOTM. We don't want that, folks. This is a restriction we've lived with before, and it's fine.

Squad Leaders who want their buffs for legitimate purposes can group with a pet or a droid and get them. Right now, you're asking why a BH can't do the same thing to hunt Jedi. Scroll up, and review point one. Bounty Hunters cannot engage Jedi if they are in a group. Dropping group results in the lack of a Squad Leader bonus, as the Squad Leader must be grouped to activate and maintain his own buff. Therefore, one-man uber BH / SL combos will not become the FOTM and will not result in a huge game balance.

Order will be restored, and our profession can get back to focusing on what's really important: making a fun profession to play that will help us stand shoulder to shoulder with our brothers and sisters in battle, guiding and aiding them in their plight.

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If you support this idea, please post so below. I honestly believe this is the most elegant solution to this growing problem, and it should be able to be implemented fairly easily. It will resolve all problems, and I cannot think of any detriments to the existing system.

Opinions?

Message Edited by ObsidianWrath on 10-16-200510:31 AM

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Actually, this is not completely true. Most Bounty Hunters, especially those who are hunting something as formidable as a Jedi, would not be stupid enough to go plunging into battle without some friends by his side.

Listen, folks. The solution to this problem is easy: the buffs' effectiveness should be directly dependent on the Squad Leader's skills and leadership points (which should be based on the amount of time/kills that that particular SL has shared with a particular player when they were grouped. Also, the buffs should be based on group size. The Bounty Hunters should be able to hunt in packs, Jedi should be 3 times as powerful, and the greater the group, the less effective the buff. This would make some benefits:

Jedi:

As far as the GCW goes, give Jedi their seperate faction role.

Bounty Hunters:

Not such an impossibly uber profession anymore. They would be very good combat players, but not necessarily so good that they could solo a well-equipped commando. They would be able to hunt in packs, but it would not necessarily be better to have 5 people in your group. The Jedi could get an auto-buff when going up against an unreasonable amount of Bounty Hunters. They would fall into Force Trance (light Jedi) or Dark Rage (dark Jedi) which would grant improved FP, Defense and Damage output. This would balance the group hunting out a bit, and a SL's buffs would diminish from, say, 167% damage mods to 111% damage mods. This would actually inspire players to hunt in more reasonable groups of two and three when hunting Jedi.

TEF's: A Jedi should have a /retreat command which would modify their defense by 300 or so (+500 for their other defense buff) but would reduce their damage output almost entirely. Their health/action would regenrate faster. Their mind/Force would not regenerate at all (to prevent Jedi from throwing up their /retreat and FR2'ing away to regenerate their FP.) A Jedi would no longer be able to hide inside a house, but they could /retreat, throw on a stim and FR2 to the nearest Starport. There, they would be able to launch straight up into space or travel. However, if they traveled, the BH('s) would be able to know exactly where the Jedi had run via a system message or a "Follow Mark" option on the star terminal. If the Jedi chose to duke it out in the sky, he would be unable to hyperspace for 5 minutes after the Bounty Hunters entered that system. The Jedi would also still be TEF'd, introducing a new bit of PVP to the game.

I also think that a mark/hunter should be able to pull out a bike or mount while in combat (Dooku) and that the bike should be harder to hit. SW Battlefront II has a pretty good representation of Speederbikes in combat. They are fast, like they should be (NOT like bikes in SWG) and they are almost impossible to hit, especially when they're whizzing past you at point blank range.