Squad Leader Archive
Thread: What Should The New Name of Squad Leader Be?
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 09-21-2005 01:14 PM
I for one had almost always thought "Group Supporter" was a much more apt name given the abiliies of this profession.... (and much more manly sounding than "Cheerleader" which is really all we are..."Yay! Go, team, go!")
i kinda like Squad Leader... my opinion, but i gues it'd have to be
I WILL KICK UR ARSE WITH MY 1 MAN SQUAD BIOTCHES!
Sorry, but apparently you haven't operated in a team of experienced people before.
This change more effectively reflects what happens when you have experienced troopers in a single squad.
Leading the squad should never be a question no matter what the profession title is, but being able to leverage experience (in the new context "buffs") of multiple people who have this experience provides flexibility to a team.
After reading through many of the "I hate this" system it appears that those who are against this are the people who I wouldn't follow through a grocery store, let alone a place where my character will suffer decay.
Leading the squad should be done by someone who is capable of providing true leadership to the team, profession tag is not proof of anything other then you could grind pistols.
If our profession allows us to either more effectively lead a squad, or at least assist with leading the squad and ensuring the survivability of the squad as a whole, as these changes appear to do, then these are good changes and don't really change the title of what we do.
And yes, I'm a new SL (halfway through master SL box) but I didn't do it because of the new system. I did it to help my guild with grinds and doing quests. I didn't really read about the changes till after I started to grind out the profession.
-Talen-
Zade_Taerin wrote:
The "Fluffer"... we'll keep everyone buffed and ready.
So wrong...
You are missing the point ...
Mirthain wrote:This change more effectively reflects what happens when you have experienced troopers in a single squad. (A)
Leading the squad should never be a question no matter what the profession title is (B), but being able to leverage experience (in the new context "buffs") of multiple people who have this experience provides flexibility to a team. (C)
Leading the squad should be done by someone who is capable of providing true leadership to the team, profession tag is not proof of anything other then you could grind pistols. (D)
If our profession allows us to either more effectively lead a squad, or at least assist with leading the squad and ensuring the survivability of the squad as a whole (E),
as these changes appear to do (F),
then these are good changes and don't really change the title of what we do. (G)
(A) Yes that the new changes do that, but it doesnt justifies the Profession Name Squad LEADER. Hence the /saracstic/ call for a name change.
(B) We all agree on that, old timers newcomers (btw. Welcome among the ranks) dabblers. Leadership is not gain by aquiring Skill boxes.
(C) Again as good as the new kind of buffs are, the functionality that several Squad leaders can use their buffs within a group, doesnt justify the profession name. I do values it that with this new system where multiple SL can apply their buffs, it will give me when Im grouped with another SL the option to still contribute with my skills to the group and enhance their experience and combat effectiveness but it drifts away from the original concept (if there ever was one though) of being the Leader (and giving buffs).
The functionality of these buffs in connection with the multiple SL can apply these buffs is what bothers a lot of "old time/veteran" Squad leaders for several reasons.
From the simple : "one leader per group" isses to the "overstacking and imbalancing of stacked buffs" to the "abusing and griefing potential" as well as to the lack of distinguish between dabblers and Masters.
(D) Hmm, only half true, in the old system, you had to be groupleader to gain SL XP. As this position within 20ppl group was a position with a certain responsibility, ppl who could not carry that responsibilty or abused it or couldnt handled that didnt picked this profession/would not become groupleader again.
This to a certain amount filtered the ppl who picked up SL as only those who were realy realy interested in leading AND were capable of at least partially carry that responsibilty were drawn to this profession.
But yes with the new Pistol XP, your right, it doesnt mean anything anymore.
(E) So how does a leader increases the effectiveness of his group usually? By buffing them (like a doctor) or by his tactical and strategical knowledge, as well as his communication skills, as well as that he knows how to increase a single persons effectiveness.
Its like american football, you got one quarterback on the field, who knows "where to put his men" and what he wants them to do. Its his tactical and strategical knowledge on which he bases his decisions what move to use.
He is not "buffing them", he doesnt "do" anything with them besides putting them there whe he wants them to be and do what he wants. He is also not "forcing" them to do that but everybody is willing to follow his orders because combined they will give them a coordinate attack/defense.
You also dont have two quarterbacks on the fields shouting different orders.
(F) Yes the new buffs increase the overall effectiveness of the group but all/most these skill/buffs have nothing to do with anything leadership - like abilities.
(G) If these are good changes the future will show on live BUT as mentioned several times they do not justify anymore the profession name squad LEADER
Now with above said coming back to (E) .
How a leader enhances his squads combat effectiveness and how these could have been implemented.
They keywords are tactical and strategical advantage.
- Group and single player waypoints: You can tactical position your groupmembers, as well as the whole group, as well as assign them into certain formations which they should hold (while waiting for the attack or before they charge), bringing us to:
Formations: Moving waypoints in relation to the squad leader, by holding these positions the groupmembers aquire certain "buffs" if you want, making the ppl want to stay within the formation.
Overhead maps: Giving the SL a better overview of the situation as well as his positions as well as that of his opponents. A High Detail Radar, with buildings as well every MOB and Player on this in a range of 256 if not 512m would realy give a strategical advantage.
Very coold would be an option to see what line of sight and thus line of fire the seperate groupmembers on that map have so you could start even using terrain to your advnntage
Dropzones, terrain negotation as passive buff, retreat and charge: These give a tactical advantage in conjustion with the above mentioned abilities you can posistion your group in a way fast into a position where their "setup" already gives them a benefits above the non SL group.
/sys messages, communications skills, larger raid parties: communication is on of the key issues during combat, if your communication is good, everybody knows what is going on and can react on what happenes. /sys was/is a very very usefull skill, coordination more ppl, without using spatial, thus without uncovering your tactics to the opposing side would be very usefull too.
These abilities would make Squad Leader a Profession who could realy LEAD ppl, not just buff them.
Oh and to get back to topic:
Our profession could be called: Combat Veterans, with Master Combat Veteran as title, since as Mirthain mentioned, our buffs are only like "the experience of veteran warriors" in a group.
There is no leadership in those buffs.
Thanks for the Welcome!
I do agree with the idea of instead of "buffs" that are "activiated" perhaps blending the idea of what they are doing now with the idea of staying within a range....
So you don't have the problem of timed buffs but the group is getting the benefit.
I.E. You have an SL leading the group, he is Painting Targets, 2 section leaders that are providing Breach Armor and Defense but the only way to get them is to be within 256m of the over all leader. This way the effects are passive to the recievers but selected by the SL providing them.
Block all command decision effects like retreat and system message to all but the group leader.
Or, for the control freaks Allow a command for the group leader to choose what buffs the SL dabblers or secondary SL's in the group are providing through the group list. Still has the potential to be abused by a jerk of a group leader, but people won't stay if they feel abused. Make the choice whatever possible effects the Secondary's have available to them and either no choice, or player choice allowing people to choose the effect.
I do agree that the potential for "unintended use" (as the dev's are seeing that people play up to the limits of the game instead of within the spirit of what they intended) will always be high using a traditional buff system, but passive enhancements based on the players position to the enhancement provider would keep that less likely to be abused.
I would also like to see some way for faction rank to help play a part for GCW PvP battles and communication. I.E. A Rebel Col. would be able to have several squads led by SL's and he could provide communication to them. this would really provide a great way to incorporate MSL's and dabbler SL's and could really help to organize GCW battles.
If anything I've said has been suggested, I apologize, but I haven't read it all yet. 
I'm just looking for the bright side and I think that these changes aren't going to be terrible, just a shift of how things are done.
-Talen-
To a certain extent, in my opinion taking leadership away from Squad Leader is like taking bounty hunting away from BH's and continuously not giving Smuggler's the ability to smuggle. Taking away the leadership role of the profession is, in my honest opinion harmful to the profession. If someone isn't a good leader, then they'll leave the profession. That's fine. If no one will group up with them, they won't want the profession anymore and find one that better suits them, leaving the good leaders still in the profession. Just think on that. As I have stated many times and in many other threads here and not just on this subjec, I started working to Squad Leader and stuck with it to lead my friends and guildmates, not to be a sidekick or to have a sidekick. If I wanted that, I would've been a Doctor/CM or Swords/Fencer/Pike or something else to that effect or I would've been a crafter and have taken on an apprentice. Regardless of what I think and feel, the point of this thread is since a lot of us don't want to be Leaders, then what's the point of having Leader in the name?
I play a Rebel Captain, Ace Alliance Pilot and Squad Leader. I chose to have my toon in a military role. I'm not hardcore grinding Jedi, though I am FS, due to the fact of what I feel a Squad Leader should be. I don't go on hunting/grinding mission often because that's not how I see Squad Leaders. I see SL regardless of faction in a military or military like role (IE. Rebel SL/Imp SL/Merc SL-working for Jabba or whoever and if Rebel or Imperial heavily involved in PvP).
Squad Leaders have to be leaders of the group for us to apply our stuff now, why is it a problem that they keep it that way? Non-SL GL's have been doing fine for the last couple of years. It just seems weird that people are having a big problem with it now.
As for a name? Well...Tonto-The-Buffbot.