Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader Fortifications Version 2.0
Bobpants wrote:
This perhaps one of the weakest ideas I have ever seen to improve a class. A squad leader with fortifications? Who thought that one up? A ranger would definitely be the class to get this. The problem in the rangers are split as to what the definition of a Ranger really is. Squadleaders aren't suppose to have a cool ability they are suppose to improve the group. Try not to use an argument thatyou know it fits another class but we would really like it because we can't think of anything better. I will admit that Squadleader needs something to give it someidentity but so does half the professions in this game.
thanks you for your opinions Bob, but could you explain
- why you belive SLs are not allowed to have cool abiliites?
- how exactly you feel a fortification would not improve a group?
- why you belive a combat oriented temp. structure is more suited for a wilderness survival profession and not a stratigic combat profession?
if you could expand on these points im sure we can improve the proposal so both rangers and SL are happy
Omegus,
I know I told you to post the proposal as is, but I just now thought of something to change.... Add damage mitigation to this proposal!!! Fortifications minimizing ranged and/or melee damage (depending on the type of fortification) for the entire group just makes good sense. Stick that in there!!!
I guess I should clarify the cool ability statement. If you look later on I say that you need an ability to give you an identity. It should have said a cool ability that another class should have.
2nd - It will improve the group I just feel that it should go to a class that already has portable outdoor structures and is more inline with there class.
3rd - What you are talking about is a temp. wilderness survival structure. Its temp. andput up in the wilderness. What it seems you are talking about isa base. Additionally, the ranger is not just an outdoors guy wandering around.
Part of the issue is that when someone moves in they always start out with "you have to understand where we are coming from." Try understanding where other classes are coming from. Try reading there boards and looking at what they want also. IMO squadleader doesn't mean bunker commando and there abilities should be diversified and focused on being a leader of a group. I think of Squadleader as more like raid leaders in EQ and other games why not try to think outside the box and come up with some ideas in the leader line?
Bobpants wrote:
2nd - It will improve the group I just feel that it should go to a class that already has portable outdoor structures and is more inline with there class.
Question: How does a structure that is designed to support a group belong ina profession of creature killers over that of group leaders?
3rd - What you are talking about is a temp. wilderness survival structure. Its temp. andput up in the wilderness. What it seems you are talking about isa base.
You misunderstood us. Our "bunker" has nothing to do with survival. There is no healing or crafting or anything associated with camps going on in these "bunkers". Is it temporary? Not in the way a camp is. It is on a timer, so that, whereas a camp dissapears when combat is initiated, a bunker sticks around. Is it a base? NO! It is a defensive emplacement. I can see them being used to help defend a faction base.
Additionally, the ranger is not just an outdoors guy wandering around.
A ranger is a hunter. They are **edit** good at bringing down large game, and additional content, like the hunting blind, will only help them in that. How does a bunker, a structure designed to help a group of players defend themselves from another group of players, fit into a profession of (from the guide) "adventurer[s] well suted to traveling around"?
Question: How does a structure that is designed to support a group belong ina profession of creature killers over that of group leaders?
What do you think the purpose of a camp is? Just so I understand your point of view...you feel that all rangers are creature killers and that is it? Additionally why would this be a "group leader" item? Why not make it an Artisan item so they can participate in the GCW? You argument that you should get something just because it benifits a group doesn't make sense. Stimpacks, guns, TKAs, pets all that goes into benifitting a group also so by your reasoning you should get those to. Additionally what about the rescue ability? Proof Rangers can work in groups. Please stop reading the parts you want to hear and skipping the rest. Even your own professions suggestions have said this is treading into Ranger land and a truce of a Master level joint camp has been offered up.
How does a bunker, a structure designed to help a group of players defend themselves from another group of players, fit into a profession of (from the guide) A soldier whose very presence in a group provides benefits to all group members. Presence not building abilities.
You say the Rangers have an issue defining who they are but I see a few trains of thoughts amongst some of your members. Those that believe you should be a General in charge of bases & armies and others who believe you should benefit your group. Here is the galaxies definition of your profession:
A soldier whose very presence in a group provides benefits to all group members.
The literal definition of your profession:
What is a Squad?
- A small group of people organized in a common endeavor or activity.
- The smallest tactical unit of military personnel.
- A small unit of police officers.
- Sports. An athletic team
Therefore, you are one who is in charge or in command of the smallest tactical unit of military personnel.
Ask the devs which you are supposed to be a base commander or a field commander and I think you'll recieve your answer (hint it isn't base commander or they woulda added camping stuff into your profession.)
Galaxies Definition of a Ranger: Adventurer well-suited to travel, tracking, and defending others in combat.
If you compare the two I think you'll find the Ranger is the defensive profession while the Squad Leader by its present design is supposed to be offensive. Though honestly I don't believe either profession should have it, but rather a new profession should have it, the Combat Engineer. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of this being added to the game, but this really doesn't fit into any of the present classes.
Bobpants, what you may be missing from the equation is that Squad Leaders are Scouts too! In order to attain Novice Squad Leader we have to get exactly the same amount of camping/survival XP as a novice Ranger, and yet this is in no way reflected in our skill tree! Either Squad Leaders should get some sort of skill that reflects our training in Survival, or remove the requirement so we can spend the skillpoints elsewhere. This proposal of fortifications is a terrific balance because it provides a great combat defensive bonus without straying into Ranger territory, instead it builds upon the added skill of the Rangers in the group.
In my personal opinion, I don't see this as the thing that will turn Squad Leaders around, but rather as an important step in the right direction for the big picture. Perhaps the bigger assets on scale with ranger bases should require or build upon other Ranger skills, but 'digging in' is a large part of what Squad Leaders command their squad to do. I guess you could say that in my priority list, I wouldn't put this type of skill ahead of improvements to tactical special abilities like improvements to /volleyfire (see /aimfor 
), but in importance this is quite a long ways ahead of /retreat. Any RL Squad Leader can tell you that he spent more time getting his squads to 'dig in', hold, or advance ground, then they EVER spent calling retreat!
I have to admit, I'm still skeptical of a fixed fortification. The combat engine doesn't really support that type of thing. Combat moves around far too much. Bunkers in general could be cool, if you were trying to defend a particular area. But bunkers were rarely ever used by the attacker. In fact...they aren't. The attacker has to move. A bunker you can set up like a camp is an attackers bunker. I mean how odd: "Pop! I have a ready made pill box jump in!" One second its a clearing, the next...just odd.
I prefer to keep the squad mobile.
first off i would like to say that i'm a bit disapointed in how the last round of this discution turned out. all of the posts turned into a arugment between us and a few of the Rangers that desided to post here. I have been opening these threads as a means to keep this topic fresh durring what appears to be times where DEVs might belooking to find ways to improve this profession so its importaint that we keep ideas like this in constant discusion so that if at any time the DEVs say, 'hey that sounds like a really good idea tell me more' we will have all the information they need and more to help them understnad how we want these new ideas to be added into the game.
i want everyone to try to keep in mind that the DEVs have not even taken notice of this idea yet so there is absolutly no reason why we should be arguing about it. please post your oppinions to the proposal, include things you like and especialy parts you do not like, and expalin too. i want to be able to continue changing the proposal based on the rest of the SL comunities oppinions that way we can have this addition made so that everyone is happy with it.
To all SLs: im sure we can all agree that this is a perfict addition to our profession but please keep in mind the feelings of the ranger comunity as well. while they have no reason why they should feel threatened by this idea, some of them still do. and as much as i hate to admit it i do not belive that we will be able to get this idea past the devs unless we have a very strong support from the ranger comunity. please allow them to state their oppinions with out agruging with them, that's not going to help our case if we are as hostile towards them as we where last time.
remember that the Rangers are taking notivce of this thread because i have personaly invited all of them here. their oppinions are just as importatiant as ours are.
To Rangers:There has been a suprizing amount of support from the Ranger Comunity for Fortifications and to those rangers i say thank you. but to those that are still agienst this idea i ask you to please take a step back and look at this proposal from nuetral ground. We SLs are not trying to take anything away from you. we simply want to find ways to improve one of the most useless professions in the game
thanks to all, and enjoy...
Squad Leader Fortifications
Proposal
Version 2.0
Much discussion has taken place over the past month or two about what the Squad
Leader community would like to see added to our other wise functionless
profession. One of the more popular ideas which has received support for
multiple professions has been the ability for Squad leaders to construct
temporary structures called fortifications.
What is a Fortification?
A fortification would be a temporary structure that would provide a
defensive location from which a group would receive many befits, including such
bonuses as increased melee and ranged defenses, increased damage to targets,
increased accuracy, and bonuses to Squad leader Skill modifiers (this is
assuming that SL skills are going to be fixed at some point). There are numerous
options for what they could do. In addition the amount of the bonuses and the
number of different types of bonuses can vary depending on the type and level of
fortification. The focus of fortification use would be directed toward large
scale PvP combat. A group lead by a Squad leader would be able to bunk up in a
Fortified structure to hold a critical position, like the entrance to a Player
Association building or Player owned Faction HQs. and can be used to defend
player cities form large groups of trouble makers. not to mention the extensive
Roll Playing Value they can add to the game.
What a Fortification
is not.
A fortification will NOT in any way be a camp. One of the reoccurring
arguments proposed against this is that Fortification will be too much like
camps. However there is only one aspect that both of these share, and that is
they are both temporary structures. But Fortification will not provide any of
the function that ranger and scout camps provide. these include healing bonuses,
wound healing and entertainer permissions, defense ageist wild arggos (not
currently working but hopefully will be soon), and crafting stations.
should fortifications be added to the Squad Leader profession THEY WOULD NOT,
NOR WOULD THEY EVER, DO ANY OF THOSE FUNCTIONS LISTED, I have tried to stress
this as clearly as I possibly can but there are a few that do not seem to get
it. The focus of camps is for
healing and recuperating after a battle, while fortifications will focus on
providing support during those battles.
Fortification Suggestions
- Sand Bags Stack – would provide a very
small amount of increased ranged defense. However sand bags could have one
special function that other fortifications would not have, this would be that
(if it’s possible for the DEVs to program) sand bad could be used inside
designer cities. This would be useful for cities like Anchorhead which deal
with a heavy amount of PvP combat. - Trench – would provide more ranged
defense then sand bags, but can not be used in developer cities. - Reinforced Trench – more improvements to
ranged defense, at this level bonuses to Squad leader skills could begin - Sniper platforms – this is a new idea
that has not received much discussion yet. the generally idea is that unlike
other fortifications it would not provide defense bonuses but instead could be
use by one or two range weapon users to increase weapon range, and accuracy.
- Bunker - this fortification has received
that majority of the support form the community. Bunkers could provide
exceptional increases to melee and ranged defenses as well as decent boosts to
Squad Leader abilities. - High Tech Defense Station – this would be
one of the better fortification possibly master Squad leader level. Basically
a more improved bunker.
Arguments Against Fortifications
They are too much like ranger camps
True they are a temporary structure similar to what ranger camps are, however,
they do not do anything ranger camps do. So fortifications would not take away
form anything rangers have. Also one of the requirements for Squad leaders is
the entire Survival tree from scout. Fortifications would be the logical next
set form this skill line for the Squad leader profession. In my personally
opinion, the rangers that are threatened by the addition of fortifications are
those that are unhappy with their profession, and feel that the camps they have
are nothing but “eye candy.” They seem to be threatened by anything that even
remotely resembles something that they could possibly have as a future addition,
even if the idea is really better suited for another profession. Again this is
my personally opinion. the fact is that the ideas proposed here for the
fortifications are the exact opposite of a camp, which is a ranger skill used
for healing. the fortification would be used for protecting and empowering
groups members in a battle.
Rangers are supposed to be getting hunting blinds in
the near future
I read the developer mention of the hunting blinds and it is for the most part
vague and uninformative of what exactly they are supposed to do. From the name
alone I have guessed that it would provide some kind of bonus to PvE combat,
possibly a to-hit bonus to creatures. Maybe even confuse creatures as to the
location of its attackers for a short time, sort of a surprise attack kind of
thing. Well that’s fine if this is what a hunting blind is supposed to do, but
if a hunting blind is supposed to do any of the things we have discussed for
Fortifications then I think it would be better in the hands of the Squad
Leaders. I have no problem with the hunting blind idea, it sounds like a great
addition to Rangers for hunting purposes, at the same time fortifications would
be a great addition to Squad leaders for PvP purposes.
I would rather see rangers get something like this so
we can be more effective in PvP combat
I think I will let one of the Ranger communities own state the counter argument
to this point: "... as a ranger I think this idea is great. We already have a
certain portion of the Ranger community who want Rangers to be more effective in
PVP but my opinion is that no matter how much we want to, we cant be all things
to all people. I indorse the idea of allowing a SL to fortify a Ranger camp. If
a Ranger wants to be a Military style Ranger with PVP benefits then they should
spend points on SL. I hope our correspondent NRass reads this and will begin
working with the SL correspondent on getting this implemented."
- BaneShee
to add to this I would like to say that I do not blame the
ranger community for wanting to improve your profession, this idea would be a
great addition to what ever profession it is added to, however, the there has
not been one solid well thought out argument to support the claims that Rangers
are better suited for this other then, "we are the only temporary structure
profession so no one else should be able to make and use temporary structures."
and I'm sorry but that just isn't good enough. there are many professions that
have similar abilities however they all have other uniquenesses that keep these
similarities from interfering with those professions individually. I
personally believe that fortifications would not take away the need for ranger
camps, and if we are able to combine camps and fortifications then it can only
increase the need for camps!
Issues
Crafting - no one has come up with a perfect plan for
who should craft these kits. Some of the upper level fortifications could be too
complicated for a SL to be able to craft alone, because we are just not a
crafting profession. We could do several things for
this issue, such as give the schematics to the ranger profession so they would have to craft the fortification kits for us. Or Squad
leaders could make the final craft but would require crafted components that
only rangers or other professions can craft. There’s no easy answer, and there is also
the combat engineer profession to consider (if it ever gets added). Recourses for
a fortification would be different depending on the its type and strength of
bonuses, sand bags would most
likely need fiberplast panels and some type of mineral that would be crushed
into sand. I’m not an expert on recourses so I’m probably not the best person to
be touching on this subject. But fortifications will probably need to be a bit
more complicated to craft then camps. some proposed suggestions include a ranger
crafted basic camp that would be a component that SLs would use to craft the
fortifications, we might need some type of metal for this or we might require
armor components form the armor smith profession.
the crafting issue is were I feel the Squad Leader community can
be willing to compromise with anyone ageist this idea. There is really no reason
why Rangers need to be threatened when we have to depend on them to supply us
with materials for fortifications. the only thing we can not compromise on is
how fortifications are to be used. we have to be able to use this ability
independently of other professions after it is crafted, however there is no
reason why we couldn't also combine fortifications with camps if both a ranger
and SL are present.
Turrets - lets not push it people. I know we need
some major changes made to our profession but I think weaponry is going a bit
too far. This could be an addition to the fortification that combat engineers
could provide, but I don’t think this is something we should be able to do.
however this is an idea that has been brought up as a possibility for
fortifications. although I feel that this might open up some kind of AT-ST like
exploiting, whereby a SL could just go out into an adventure planet alone, find
a spawning area, plop down an improved camp, combine it with a fortification and
set up enough turrets to solo some of the ridiculously powerful creatures.
Squad Leader vs Ranger - Ranger have a
working profession, and by working I mean they have skills and abilities that
perform a function (area track, camps, traps). True the traps aren’t anything
too special, but at least they work... Squad leaders have maybe one working
skill out of our entire profession. I can see why ranger feel threatened by this
idea, but please! Consider the fact that you guys at least have a working
profession and ours is busted beyond belief. I wish you guys luck in having your
profession improved but please at least let us have Fortifications. We need this
desperately. and if we could all take a step back and look at this objectively,
I think we can all agree that a fortification is something that a military
leader would be in charge of setting up, and this is supposed to be the focus of
our profession, to be the Leader of a combat group. Ranger skills tend to lean
more toward survival and hunting, and as important as these skills are for any
group to have they do not justify fortifications for rangers.
Skill mods - I’m actually kind of surprised no one
has brought this up yet. But SLs already have skill mods to increase melee and
ranged defenses, and while they really aren’t working what happens if they get
fixed down the road? Well from how I understand these skill mods work is they
are added to what ever defenses the individual members of the group already
have. And one of the problems is once that player reaches the cap for that mod
they bonus no longer applies. This would be a problem for the fortification if
the cap for individual player defense skill mods is taken into account.
Therefore I have come up with two ideas, 1) while in a fortification, group
member receive the increased defenses even if they excide the skill cap. Or 2)
this proposal has focused on the fortification from the stand point of idea 1,
how ever the second option for how fortifications can protect a group could be
by making all members of a SLs group untargetable while insides a fortification
(this would only apply to fortification that enclose the group such as the
bunker or defense station, sand bags and trenches would have to follow
idea 1). so an enemy group would have to instead target the fortification which
would have a damage meter similar to Spawning Lairs. once the fortifications has
maxed damage it is immediately disbanded and all group member become targetable.
Combining - one of the main reason rangers are so
supportive of the fortifications idea is that we have discussed a possible use
for these kits to be able to either place them around or otherwise combine the
fortification with a ranger camp. I can see how this might be a difficult
concept to be programmed in, which is why I left this idea out of the opening
proposal. I think we would all like to see camps and fortifications being used
together, however as it maybe a difficult thing to program I'd rather see the
Squad Leader profession get
a stand alone fortification first and then add the ability to combine with camps
later.
Support - for the most part the Ranger Community has
been more supportive of this idea then I would have expected, So I would like to
thank all rangers who have been able to keep an open mind about this proposal,
and have made positive suggestions to help us improve this idea. and to the few
rangers that have been less then supportive I would just like to say i
understand, I don't agree but I understand and while you may feel threatened by
this idea I would like to stress that I do not see Fortifications hurting your
profession in any way, and if I did I would stop campaigning for this idea
immediately.
Conclusion
While I believe that the most important priority the development teams needs to
focus on is to fix the skills we have now, before they move into new content I
still feel very strongly about this idea. I think fortifications could be one of
the best possible additions to the Squad leader profession that would make us a
valuable asset to the SWG world. Fortifications would not take away for Ranger,
in fact most ranger are very supportive of this idea and want to see it added to
our profession.
Resources
Squad Leader Fortifications Discussions:
1,
2
Ranger Fortifications Discussions:
1,
2