Squad Leader Archive

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Ackehece wrote:

as you seen in my posts in the other side... I have no problems with forcing people to accept the retreat. I think it is silly to suggest that people would ignore the squadleader - sure it may be a mistake but in combat mistakes can and do happen.

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I agree with you.

But... Its all about Balance. And this is by no means set in stone.

I like this change

I think 1 min 30 seconds is good, it prevents the opposing team from just doing a /burst after them, they could still catch up with some well made parwan nuticake however.

Disagree, it should be damage reduction, not accuracy. You want to be able to croud control them to get away, but not actually kill them, besides some professionscan get so much accuracy that it simply won't matter.

Actually i like this, not because a SL might make a "bad call" but because perhaps half of the group needs to get away, while the other half can still stay and fight. That was one problem in my head,i had would be cases where perhaps some need to run and some don't. This would be a great fix.

NO DOWNERS, make the negatives part of accepting the Retreat command, damage reduction, accuracy loss, whatever. The negatives here should be high enough to negate the ability to used offensivly. Ifretreatcanstill be "broken" andused offensivly thenmake the penalties worse so that they can't do so.The only way i would accept a downer here would be if there was a downer for the normal /burstrun command. /Retreat should not have its own downer.

Ham costs don't matter while buffed, After the revamp everything is changing, you know this better than I Irott. This feels like a wierd statement as /Retreat's HAM cost is already VERY high.

Message Edited by Psionic_Maji on 01-29-2005 07:55 PM

In response to the HAM costs... there is information that I cannot release that relates to that.
There wouldnt actualy be HAM costs, sorry I can't say more. ^_^

And the accuracy thing is bugging me too. Some people say damage, like you said, others say restricting specials would work better. But I thought about it, and if damage is reduced or only specials are restricted, it still might turn into a group of 20 people kiting around one thing.

I liked lowering accuracy because its accross the board. You can fire all you want while running real fast, you just wont hit anything. Its still all up in the air though.

For the "downer" that one is debateable as well. Depending on how long the burstrun lasts is the deciding factor. A short retreat, like we have now, doesnt really need a downer. But if the retreat is long then it seems justified to put a downer at the end.

This is just stuff being discussed, and like I said, its only a second draft. There are always good ideas comming out of these threads so I am sure we will end up with a decent skill.

/salute.

Message Edited by Psionic_Maji on 01-29-2005 10:17 PM

Ok, sorry this took a little while, but there are some major changes to the game going on (check out the most recent TC patch notes).



Anyway, I have gathered information from all of the threads I started and have come up with a second draft proposal:



Retreat

• Time limit of 1 hour between uses
• Increased burstrun duration.
• Still trying to figure out a decent time limit. But quite a bit longer than the current duration.
• Groups accuracy is reduced while retreating
• Still working on a good way to go about doing this.
• Squad Leader is not able to Force command on anyone until they accept it.
• The exact method has not been determined yet, but the player would have to do something after SL orders a retreat to enter into retreat mode.
• "Down time" of 3 to 5 mins, much like a spice downer.
• Squad Leader takes massive hit to HAM

Mainly the big concerns that came out of the discussions were the ability for Squad Leaders to force someone to retreat even if they don't want to. Example: Everyone in the group thinks they can win the battle, but the SL sees peoples HAM dropping very fast. He makes a bad call and orders a retreat... The group could have won but they were forced out of the area.



But then the thread turned into a Philosophical debate on whether Squad Leaders should only be played by people with RL leadership skills, or if the Squad Leader profession should be just a template that anyone from a 10 year old girl to 70 year old man can play. The discussion is still going on, but it’s helping a few people understand what a Squad Leader is as a profession.



Also a few other ideas were brought up such as an Advanced Retreat (codename: "Blaze of Glory") that would give the Squad Leader increased offensive power for a period of time, while the rest of the team retreats, and at the end of that time (if they were not dead yet) they would go into a state of being incapped for 70-90 seconds. Increased State and Special Defense (block/counterattack/dodge) bonuses while retreating was also brought up.



There was also a bunch of other stuff that I cannot discuss due to NDA reasons. I am still behind the change 100% though and I would like to have you guys discuss this more as well. All feedback is appreciated.



/salute

I too like the idea of a 1:30 burstrun with a 15minute cool down. Not sure how long I think the downer should be but 1:30 to 3:00 mins sounds fine. I also feel the accuracy debuff would be a good way to limit any offensive capability of the special, afterall, when you're concentrating on escaping you're not going to be firing very accurately. Good work irott

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irott wrote:

Retreat

• Time limit of 1 hour between uses

I like this.

• Increased burstrun duration.




• Still trying to figure out a decent time limit. But quite a bit longer than the current duration.

I think it should the amount of time it would take you to get from teh Acklay to the exit of teh Geo Caves. Roughly 2 minutes with burst run IIRC.

• Groups accuracy is reduced while retreating




• Still working on a good way to go about doing this.

The hit to Accuracy is good. But could be countered by staying still. (Because you are not moving no accuracy while moving issues would be affected)

• Squad Leader is not able to Force command on anyone until they accept it.




• The exact method has not been determined yet, but the player would have to do something after SL orders a retreat to enter into retreat mode.

Okay this is BS. This cuts to the core of our profession, we are a group support profession. We bring alot to the table through increases terrain negotiation, improved ranged and melee defenses, ability top even wounds and clear states. If you make this a "click to accept" type special it would only be fair to do the same thing for every heal, buff, or other special impacting another player. If I were in Irott's position I would not waiver on this either. If they accept all the positives we provide in ranged and melee defenses and increased terrain negotiation they have to accept the possibility that we could make a mistake. Fine do not prevent specials as in the original proposal, but still make them subject to the accuracy while moving penalty (see above comment on countering it)

• "Down time" of 3 to 5 mins, much like a spice downer.

Sounds good.

• Squad Leader takes massive hit to HAM

Sounds good.

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I understand the reluctance to want to let another player influence my ability, but it is wrong to say we like SLs but only when they do good. It would be like a TKM having to get permission through a checked command from everybody in the group before aggroing a rancor.Every profession has its pluses and minuses. We bring alot to the table, and if you don't allow us the ability to make mistakes then you stop making SL fun. We basically become, get a SL its a group buff and tell him to stay in the back and not get in the way. And Irott in the CURB thread it was really just that one guy objecting. Reead it and you'll see most people didn't have a problem with it after we explained what SLs genreally want.

I came up with another idea that goes across the board. If a player is in burstrun mode there is a burstrun multiplier that affects the Accuracy while moving mod.

Quick example: Player has Accuracy while moving mod of +50. Player hits burstrun or is ordered to retreat by a Squad Leader. Accuracy while moving mod is multiplied by the Burstrun mode multiplier of 0.5. Players accuracy while moving is cut in half while in burstrun mode.

There may already be a system like this in the game, but It is just and idea. This way though, being in any sort of burstrun reduces accuracy, so retreat could add some other penalty (or benefit).