Smuggler Archive
Thread: A BH asking about Feign Death--please don't flame
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wyzer301
Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:21 am
#1
Some of you may be aware that there is a huge argument between Jedi and Bounty Hunters over the Feign Death skill. The argument basically breaks down between people wishing to nerf it and people saying it's just fine as is.
Personally, I have no problem with the skill itself. I am under the impression that it works as intended. However, I am also under the impression that some other skills were intended to be able to counter Feign Death. Apparently they are not working as intended. This, to me, is an issue with those skills, not with the Feign Death skill. I think it would make sense to fix this issue, as I don't believe SOE intended to have "unbeatable" skills (this is apparently why Thako was provided, so that knockdown skills were not "unbeatable").
However, beyond that issue, someone brought up another idea. It was suggested to have the Feign Death skill moved to Master Smuggler. I admit freely that I don't know much about your profession, so I don't want to just jump on the band wagon, although it sounds reasonable to me. I wanted to ask the smuggler community what they thought about this.
What this would entail, in my opinion, is moving not just the skill to the master box, but also moving all of the mods to it. Or, the skill could just be changed in a way that it doesn't need the mods, i.e. just having the skill would be the same as maxing out in it is now.
I have heard that it is an issue that Master Smuggler has not real bonuses in the master box. Because this seems to be a valuable smuggler skill, I wonder how you all would feel about it thus being moved to the master box. Perhaps a new Dirty Fighting tactic could be put in place of Feign Death in the box it was previously in?
Anyways, I just wanted to get your impressions on this so that I might understand the issue from your point of view.
Personally, I have no problem with the skill itself. I am under the impression that it works as intended. However, I am also under the impression that some other skills were intended to be able to counter Feign Death. Apparently they are not working as intended. This, to me, is an issue with those skills, not with the Feign Death skill. I think it would make sense to fix this issue, as I don't believe SOE intended to have "unbeatable" skills (this is apparently why Thako was provided, so that knockdown skills were not "unbeatable").
However, beyond that issue, someone brought up another idea. It was suggested to have the Feign Death skill moved to Master Smuggler. I admit freely that I don't know much about your profession, so I don't want to just jump on the band wagon, although it sounds reasonable to me. I wanted to ask the smuggler community what they thought about this.
What this would entail, in my opinion, is moving not just the skill to the master box, but also moving all of the mods to it. Or, the skill could just be changed in a way that it doesn't need the mods, i.e. just having the skill would be the same as maxing out in it is now.
I have heard that it is an issue that Master Smuggler has not real bonuses in the master box. Because this seems to be a valuable smuggler skill, I wonder how you all would feel about it thus being moved to the master box. Perhaps a new Dirty Fighting tactic could be put in place of Feign Death in the box it was previously in?
Anyways, I just wanted to get your impressions on this so that I might understand the issue from your point of view.
Spec-Ops
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:04 am
#2
it SOUNDS reasonable, but its still unfair that we get screwed cause of jedi and BH... but whatever..
rogue_eight
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:06 am
#3
I know that this has been talked about here quite a lot, and I think you seem to have covered most of the options that were put forward.
Personally I have no problem with FD being made master, but I think that the community as a whole might object, as it kind of nerfs the players that like to dabble.
Admittedly, we don't have that many great skills, let alone much at Master, as you said, so in that light it seems like a reasonable suggestion.
Not sure, but I think what would help things considerably and be most acceptable to the populace, would be to do what they do with mask scent for example - just up the effectiveness the higher up the tree you go.
And I wouldn't be worried about flaming. We're generally a congenial bunch (unless someone inists that tool quality affects slicing
) , and we appreciate someone from another profession offering contructive suggestions to improve rather than just screaming nerf.
Personally I have no problem with FD being made master, but I think that the community as a whole might object, as it kind of nerfs the players that like to dabble.
Admittedly, we don't have that many great skills, let alone much at Master, as you said, so in that light it seems like a reasonable suggestion.
Not sure, but I think what would help things considerably and be most acceptable to the populace, would be to do what they do with mask scent for example - just up the effectiveness the higher up the tree you go.
And I wouldn't be worried about flaming. We're generally a congenial bunch (unless someone inists that tool quality affects slicing
) , and we appreciate someone from another profession offering contructive suggestions to improve rather than just screaming nerf.
JediNizar2
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:29 am
#4
No way!!! I remember how helpful FD was for me when I was still a novice.
It's unfair enough to see all the melee combat Profession so powrful that they can do everything, as a Smuggler or Pistoleer my only way to survive or complete some missi was FD.
and I don't accept any other shaft, nervt to the Smuggler, specialy for the Jedi
rogue_eight
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:37 am
#5
I think with the combat upgrade the melee profs won't have such an easy ride, and I agree that we shouldn't have to be changed because other professions are 'abusing' our skills.
However, I can't see things staying the way they are, and I'd rather an 'adjustment' of limiting affect to most Smugglers (I think the vast majority are probably master anyway as it's really the only way to get much out of the profession as it stands at the moment) rather than all out swing of the nerf bat.
Just my 2 creds...
However, I can't see things staying the way they are, and I'd rather an 'adjustment' of limiting affect to most Smugglers (I think the vast majority are probably master anyway as it's really the only way to get much out of the profession as it stands at the moment) rather than all out swing of the nerf bat.
Just my 2 creds...
DaPrez
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:58 am
#6
I feel moving FD to master would be okay. I do not like the idea of moves pulling someone out of FD. If you FD successfully then people should think your dead. People dont shoot dead people. IfFD fails just have us remain standing instead of hitting the deck. Once FD is successful that should be it(IMO).
LaughingWolf
Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:49 am
#7
Yes , I would prefer a chance to fail FD, with higher and higher chance of success the higher in the Dirty Fighting tree you are, but no "counter move". With a chance to fail it would not be an "auto success" skill. As it is, I believe you can't FD when kd'ed. Not sure about dizzy, but since you have to be standing to FD, I am fairly sure if you are dizzy enough to fall down, forget FD. So it do not work any time under any circonstances.
My opinion.
wyzer301 you come asking inteligent questions and making suggestions that are not a "nerf them!" scream, so why would you be flamed?
My opinion.
wyzer301 you come asking inteligent questions and making suggestions that are not a "nerf them!" scream, so why would you be flamed?
Message Edited by LaughingWolf on 11-25-2004 09:56 AM
Daturaze
Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:59 am
#8
I joked in an earlier post a month or so ago on this topic that they should keep the structure the way it is - only at Master have the skill actually work as intended!
If you're working on Smuggler and don't have any secondary elite profession, the FD does come in handy because we don't get that many combat skills, and to level up in pistol there's going to be times when a Novice Smuggler is going to need that skill.
To use the Mask scent analogy:
Scenario A: Master Ranger approaches Rancor with Dath Cameo Kit applied
Rancor: <sniff><sniff> Ahhh nothing but clean air nothing to worry about, just going to relax
Scenario B: Novice Scout with minimal Mask Scent approaches Rancor
Rancor: <sniff><sniff> What the heck is that?? It smells like a human no, wait, is that a Human using Brut to mask his scent???? Breakfast time!!!
Have the FD work against the low level environment targets at Novice, and graduate upwards until at Master, opposing PvP players don't see a FD symbol - they just see a corpose of a smuggler.
Anyway - any other questions - just fire!
Cheers
Dat
riotcontrol
Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:59 am
#9
Temporary solution: Moving PvP Feign Death to Master Smuggler, and leaving PvE Feign Death on Dirty Fighting 1.
This does not take possible Smuggler/player bounties into consideration, and the issue will reappear if they are ever implemented.
Permanent solution: Making Feign Death an active skill with counters and chances to fail.
This one would allow a Smuggler to escape quickly by confusing the opponent rather than just lie there while everyone prods him with a stick. This is, as far as I can remember, more or less Caylin's vision of the 'proper' FD system, and if it's implemented in a reasonable way, would be the only way to make FD a believable and non-immersion-breaking move in PvP.
SpaceCrazy
Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:49 am
#10
I'd be for having the chances of FD working increase as you move up the tree, with the highest chance for success being at Master Smuggler. I don't think anything in the game should be 100% effective. There should always be a chance it will fail.
I'm not so sure about having a skill to "break" FD. After all, if it's a success, your opponent is supposed to think you're a corpse right? Speaking of which, as I haven't done much ground combat lately to find out, do creatures still auto-aggro when you get up from FD? That annoyed me when it changed, especially when it happens from over 100m away.
I'm not so sure about having a skill to "break" FD. After all, if it's a success, your opponent is supposed to think you're a corpse right? Speaking of which, as I haven't done much ground combat lately to find out, do creatures still auto-aggro when you get up from FD? That annoyed me when it changed, especially when it happens from over 100m away.
Ternque01
Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:00 am
#11
I think the main problem at this time with feign death is it interfering with bounties.
I suggest a skill put in at Novice Bounty Hunter called /checkcorpse. This can be a skill that is active only when on a bountymission, or not.
Essentially, FD will work in large scale battles, but if a player is marked for death, the bounty hunter will check his/her prey to make sure it is dead. You aren't going to fool anyone when a BH hooks an electrocardiogram up to your body to check for a pulse.
Making sure your mark is dead is part of the job. I suggest we make it a tool for the job also. Depending on balance issues, this skill can be either usable all of the time or only during bounty hunts.
Ternque01
Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:01 am
#12
BH's should have a tool to break FD, since they are the ones catching the most grief over it.
Jaguarrr
Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:21 am
#13
I think there is a HUGE missunderstanding about what scene gave the birth to feigndeath. The actuall FD is just a patchwork, Its nothing more than a "Oooh. Arrrgh. You hit me." and dropping on the back.
The following scene I remember from the Han-Solo-Triology (free from my mind)
Han Solo is on Coruscant, it is way before he met Chewie. He made some Hutt-related alien angry for stealing its precious art collection. For this he had a bounty on his head. This of course is enough to get a few bounty hunters after him, but not just that. A shadow from his past shows up, the man who took care of him in his childhood (he beat Han up, made him steal and beg, not a nice guy) and a bounty hunter.
So they finally meet on some ceiling of Coruscant (Han graduated the Imperial Academy). The "stepfather" of Han is some kind of greedy a$$hat, he wants the money. They start to fight and Han gets cornered, in this moment that other bounty hunter shows up. "Stepfather" and BH shot each other... (weee Smugglers Luck).
The BH looks a bit like Han (Smugglers Luck again), so Han takes the blaster of his "stepfather" and shots in the face of the dead BH and tosses him down the roof.
This is how FD should work. Fake Your Death and not Play Dead
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