Smuggler Archive
Thread: Can we *please* stop hijacking threads?
Page 1 of 3
Saabotage
Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:56 am
#1
Jake-MP wrote:
You know, I'm so sick of seeing Smugglers moping all over the SOE boards... especially trying to hyjack threads that have been posted in by Devs. Things like "As long as you're here, can you swing over to the Smuggler boards?" or "Seen GreenMarine lately? We could really use his presence on the Smuggler boards." I know that Smuggler is in need of work. I know that Smugglers were promissed some love a while back they was never received. Guess what? Priorities changed. The Holocron/grinding system was literally destroying the game. It had to be changed. Jump to Lightspeed was promissed the summer of 2004 and being a money-making expansion, it had to go out. Don't forget that SOE is a corporation and as such they primary objective is to make money. Without money, there are no servers, there are no Devs (do you really think these guys work for free?), there is no game. The combat balance (or rather upgrade) has to come before the Smuggler revamp. If they revamp Smuggler without fixing combat first, we'll still be broken. While not everything, combat is still a part of the profession. The combat upgrade will effect 2 (dirty fighting and spice) of our lines and possibly even a third (slicing). While it is roughly 20% of what we need to be complete (in my eyes, underworld shoud really define the profession and be 90% different than it is now), it is still needed.1. We should be glad they put us off behind the combat upgrade as it means they'll devote more time and energy to doing the job right and building off the combat upgrade.
2.So, my main point is: please stop whining all over the boards.3.Not only will it not accomplish anything, it may even have a negative impact. Don't forget that behind those "red names" are human beings are they are completely susceptable to the physcologies of human emotions (woah, did I just write that?). 4.I know that I, personally, am less likely to do something if I am constantly pestered about it, even if I fully intended to do it in the first place (do note there is a difference between pestering and friendly prodding/reminding).
1. When we first saw the stuff they tried to push off on us as our revamp, WE were gald they put it off.... Though also, we have seen nothing that improves Smuggler from the "Combat Upgrade". And I don't know about you, but each publishI fear what will happen to MY game play experiance(what little their is being aforgotten & broken profession),that has been stealth changed or just broken(and never fixed)....Ohh wait let me pull a clamp out of my pack.....
2. I will post where ever and when ever I feel is best... I suspect so will everybody else...
3. It MAY have a negative impact, but how would we know? All we would know is that we are STILL the same...Also I find it funny nobody remembers their are real humans behind the green player names....
Hey this point on #3 is important to me, and this is it: We didn't stop talking with them, they stopped ALL talk with US!
4. Yeah, they may be less likely to "want" to revamp us, or not want to talk to us at all (though GreenMarine was nice to us), but the fact is, its not our reputations on the lines with this game it's theirs. And while I do not disagree with the combat revamp/ungrade being first. With the things they have hinted at being next, it looks as though the Smuggler revamp will be after ALL the crafter revamps (which is after the combar upgrade and loot revamp). If this is the case it would be next June before the earliest we would be revamped. And to ME that is absolutley unacceptable.
Also I don't bash them, I try to stay constructive to the thread I'm in(I said try) and if possible I try to be whitty or cleaver when bringing it up.
But to sum it all up, its not our fault, our profession is like it is now. As a paying customer I expect out of them, the same level of service that I do every other company I patron. After all if my cable company promiesed me 3mbit modemand after they hooked it up is was only 1.1mbit then I would complain till they fixed it and gave me the service I was paying for(this happened thats why I bring it up)...... Makes sense to me, I know their humans over their in Austin, Tx. I'm just trying to remind them that their are humans on our end also; who are dissatisfied with their current(for over a year) service......
:-) I like you lets be friends! :-P
Orcajum
Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:04 am
#2
I have to agree. Hijacking threads unrelated to smugglers as a way to get the attention of the devs is rather sophomoric. Everyone knows we need a lot of help, that we've BEEN the revamp waiting list for 17 months, etc...
The sad part is, we shouldn't HAVE to resort to hijacking to get any attention. What you may not realize is that the vast majority of this smuggler community understands the needs of SOEs prioritization. The hologrind was lousy and needed to be fixed to restore order to the game (though one should note, had other facets of the game been looked at prior to developing Jedi, this would have been a moot point. Fact is, Combat and GCW should have been done BEFORE Jedi were put in, but i digress). We don't disagree with that. JTL IS a massive undertaking, and we can understand the need to get that product out and working as properly as possible. And the combat balance/update/retrofit is about the most necessary undertaking the devs have put their time into since launch. None of these facts are in dispute with the Smuggler community. And you probably don't really hear many complaints about being relegated behind these publishes.
What you DO hear us desiring, more than anything from the SOE people, is just a little bit of communication. Our 'hijacking' is not intended to lobby for our agenda ahead of the other work that needs to be done, we know that the good of the majority comes first. It's just to hear some, any, honest dialogue. We shouldn't NEED to hijack a bloody thread to get 5 minutes of someone's time. Tiggs especially was hired as basically a community relations interface. She's been working, what, 2 months now? Is it asking too much for us to have her make ONE damn appearance in this forum other than to congradulate Wes as our new correspondant? We'd limit our whining to this forum if anyone actually cared enough to visit in the first place.
The sad part is, we shouldn't HAVE to resort to hijacking to get any attention. What you may not realize is that the vast majority of this smuggler community understands the needs of SOEs prioritization. The hologrind was lousy and needed to be fixed to restore order to the game (though one should note, had other facets of the game been looked at prior to developing Jedi, this would have been a moot point. Fact is, Combat and GCW should have been done BEFORE Jedi were put in, but i digress). We don't disagree with that. JTL IS a massive undertaking, and we can understand the need to get that product out and working as properly as possible. And the combat balance/update/retrofit is about the most necessary undertaking the devs have put their time into since launch. None of these facts are in dispute with the Smuggler community. And you probably don't really hear many complaints about being relegated behind these publishes.
What you DO hear us desiring, more than anything from the SOE people, is just a little bit of communication. Our 'hijacking' is not intended to lobby for our agenda ahead of the other work that needs to be done, we know that the good of the majority comes first. It's just to hear some, any, honest dialogue. We shouldn't NEED to hijack a bloody thread to get 5 minutes of someone's time. Tiggs especially was hired as basically a community relations interface. She's been working, what, 2 months now? Is it asking too much for us to have her make ONE damn appearance in this forum other than to congradulate Wes as our new correspondant? We'd limit our whining to this forum if anyone actually cared enough to visit in the first place.
TomoRainer
Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:05 am
#3
It could have a negative impact? How could it possibly get worse? They constantly lie to us about when we'll see a revamp, they don't fix the smuggler things they break, they're practically phasing our profession out with all the little-s "smuggler" content on JTL. As for their mental health, what about ours? Do you know any smuggler who's been one longer than a month that isn't a cynical old SOB?
I've always felt we were some kind of barbarian tribe up on the hill of our forum, mostly keeping to ourselves. But occasionally the dev-princes do something to rile us up--I don't know, this metaphor's stupid--they start co-opting our badly-made little totems into their grand religion, or they're too lazy to bury their dead horses so they just toss them down our well and trot off--and that's when we rush down from the hills, scream a lot of what (to them) is gibberish, then retreat to our fetid caves to lick our wounds and insult their fighting prowess.
We know it never accomplishes anything, so we don't raid them too often. But once in a while, we have to.. just to remind them they're not safe behind their walls.
I've always felt we were some kind of barbarian tribe up on the hill of our forum, mostly keeping to ourselves. But occasionally the dev-princes do something to rile us up--I don't know, this metaphor's stupid--they start co-opting our badly-made little totems into their grand religion, or they're too lazy to bury their dead horses so they just toss them down our well and trot off--and that's when we rush down from the hills, scream a lot of what (to them) is gibberish, then retreat to our fetid caves to lick our wounds and insult their fighting prowess.
We know it never accomplishes anything, so we don't raid them too often. But once in a while, we have to.. just to remind them they're not safe behind their walls.
kgmkiorys
Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:06 am
#4
Jake-MP wrote:
You know, I'm so sick of seeing Smugglers moping all over the SOE boards... especially trying to hyjack threads that have been posted in by Devs. Things like "As long as you're here, can you swing over to the Smuggler boards?" or "Seen GreenMarine lately? We could really use his presence on the Smuggler boards." I know that Smuggler is in need of work. I know that Smugglers were promissed some love a while back they was never received. Guess what? Priorities changed. The Holocron/grinding system was literally destroying the game. It had to be changed. Jump to Lightspeed was promissed the summer of 2004 and being a money-making expansion, it had to go out. Don't forget that SOE is a corporation and as such they primary objective is to make money. Without money, there are no servers, there are no Devs (do you really think these guys work for free?), there is no game. The combat balance (or rather upgrade) has to come before the Smuggler revamp. If they revamp Smuggler without fixing combat first, we'll still be broken. While not everything, combat is still a part of the profession. The combat upgrade will effect 2 (dirty fighting and spice) of our lines and possibly even a third (slicing). While it is roughly 20% of what we need to be complete (in my eyes, underworld shoud really define the profession and be 90% different than it is now), it is still needed. We should be glad they put us off behind the combat upgrade as it means they'll devote more time and energy to doing the job right and building off the combat upgrade.
So, my main point is: please stop whining all over the boards. Not only will it not accomplish anything, it may even have a negative impact. Don't forget that behind those "red names" are human beings are they are completely susceptable to the physcologies of human emotions (woah, did I just write that?). I know that I, personally, am less likely to do something if I am constantly pestered about it, even if I fully intended to do it in the first place (do note there is a difference between pestering and friendly prodding/reminding).
OK, it's boring, you know what? we are bored too, we just want someone to be bored too, so that he/she may take action.
At the moment we are at the point that we are not sure if a dev remember there are smugglers in game, we're not sure if they won't simply suppress the profession, we're not sure if there will be a revamp one day before hell freezes.
We don't ask for the revamp to take place right now right here, we do have certain logical reasonning too, and it's obvious combat needs to be rethought before anything, the only thing we ask is to fix a bug, the same way those guys ask for the warcry to be fixed or those others ask for the rebel helmet. Except that we were promised long ago it would not even be a live issue.
Slicing is the main income for most of us (or the only one, as you want) and making it more and more tedious is not what i call fun, and guess what? we play to have fun.
Jake-MP
Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:27 am
#5
Somehow I expected the one-star ninja to appear on this post. To those who took the time to respond rather than simply click the "1" button, thank-you.
Do note that I never once claimed that Smuggler's don't have problems. I know, I Mastered Smuggler almost a year ago now. To be honest, however, I haven't really had much time to play my smuggler character due to my current situation. In my initial post I even seem to remember acknowledging that we were promissed some love long ago that never did happen. To say that they've outright forgotten about us and the only way to get them to remember is go posting all over the boards little messages like "Smuggler's got screwed again!" is a little dooms-day, don't you think? Are there little things that would be great to be fixed (such as crate pulling, anybody)? Absolutely. Was that issue submitted to the devs as one of the "little things to tide you over until after the combat upgrade?" I'd sure hope so, though I guess I can't really say for sure.
One post said that it can't get any worse because GreenMarine (nor any other dev) hasn't posted here in a long time. Well, who's to say that if we didn't have people out there jumping and waving that maybe the Devs would have stopped by already. Probably not, but phsycology is way beyond my area of expertise. Do try to remember, however, that the reason the Devs have changed their "roadmap" policy into a "what's coming next" policy is because people were out there jumping and waving everytime a future item was changed. I, personally, prefered the roadmap as it provided a much better idea of where everything fit together (even though it was subject to change). It's kinda like where I'm at now in real life. I'm stuck on a deployment to Iraq. I was just told last night what our tentitive date of departure from this place is. Do I believe it? No. Do I like knowing about it. Yep. Has something like this changed on us in the past? Yep. What was the responce? "Maybe we shouldn't have told you about it." Well, it's the same thing happening here. The Devs have decided to take "maybe" to the next level and stop giving out information due to people complaining.
Wow, as I read this it doesn't all fit together as nicely as I hoped it would.... but I'm gonna submit it anyway because I think the point is still in there somewhere.
Do note that I never once claimed that Smuggler's don't have problems. I know, I Mastered Smuggler almost a year ago now. To be honest, however, I haven't really had much time to play my smuggler character due to my current situation. In my initial post I even seem to remember acknowledging that we were promissed some love long ago that never did happen. To say that they've outright forgotten about us and the only way to get them to remember is go posting all over the boards little messages like "Smuggler's got screwed again!" is a little dooms-day, don't you think? Are there little things that would be great to be fixed (such as crate pulling, anybody)? Absolutely. Was that issue submitted to the devs as one of the "little things to tide you over until after the combat upgrade?" I'd sure hope so, though I guess I can't really say for sure.
One post said that it can't get any worse because GreenMarine (nor any other dev) hasn't posted here in a long time. Well, who's to say that if we didn't have people out there jumping and waving that maybe the Devs would have stopped by already. Probably not, but phsycology is way beyond my area of expertise. Do try to remember, however, that the reason the Devs have changed their "roadmap" policy into a "what's coming next" policy is because people were out there jumping and waving everytime a future item was changed. I, personally, prefered the roadmap as it provided a much better idea of where everything fit together (even though it was subject to change). It's kinda like where I'm at now in real life. I'm stuck on a deployment to Iraq. I was just told last night what our tentitive date of departure from this place is. Do I believe it? No. Do I like knowing about it. Yep. Has something like this changed on us in the past? Yep. What was the responce? "Maybe we shouldn't have told you about it." Well, it's the same thing happening here. The Devs have decided to take "maybe" to the next level and stop giving out information due to people complaining.
Wow, as I read this it doesn't all fit together as nicely as I hoped it would.... but I'm gonna submit it anyway because I think the point is still in there somewhere.
Jake-MP
Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:39 am
#6
Oh, I almost forgot. Having said all that, there is a way to get attention in a way that doesn't come off as whining (and yes, I've seen other's comment in areas that aren't these boards about Smuggler's whining... and it makes me sad).
Instead of hijacking threads to injerject either the same thing over and over again or mini-rants, you can do one of two things:
1. If you can sum up what you're saying intelligably enough in a short sentence or two, put it in your sig.
2. If you can't, write up an intelligent sounding post with your main beefs and put a link to it in your sig.
You probably noticed two things in common with the above suggestions. Intelligence and your sig. The first is because few people enjoy reading a huge rant, especially when it's hard to read. Avoid things like '1337 sp34k' and try to use capitilization and punctuation. It makes it easier for normal people to read and that is your target audience for a campain such as this.
Now, to make putting something like this in your sig effective, you need to do a couple things (wow, I seem to have this facination with doing a couple things!).
1. On these other threads that your tempted to hijack, provide some intelligent insight or contribute to the discussion in a positive manner. This will make people (not all, but the ones you're concerned about) want to read what else you might have to say. This is especially important if your main point is in another post, you have to make them want to click the link in your sig.
2. Avoid things like "see my sig." Sigs are volitile and when you decide to remove the link right after the Smuggler revamp is published in the year 2010 then this statement won't make sense anymore. Not important to you now, but it's always good to plan for the future
.
OK, I think that's all I have for now. Who wants to click the "1" this time?
Instead of hijacking threads to injerject either the same thing over and over again or mini-rants, you can do one of two things:
1. If you can sum up what you're saying intelligably enough in a short sentence or two, put it in your sig.
2. If you can't, write up an intelligent sounding post with your main beefs and put a link to it in your sig.
You probably noticed two things in common with the above suggestions. Intelligence and your sig. The first is because few people enjoy reading a huge rant, especially when it's hard to read. Avoid things like '1337 sp34k' and try to use capitilization and punctuation. It makes it easier for normal people to read and that is your target audience for a campain such as this.
Now, to make putting something like this in your sig effective, you need to do a couple things (wow, I seem to have this facination with doing a couple things!).
1. On these other threads that your tempted to hijack, provide some intelligent insight or contribute to the discussion in a positive manner. This will make people (not all, but the ones you're concerned about) want to read what else you might have to say. This is especially important if your main point is in another post, you have to make them want to click the link in your sig.
2. Avoid things like "see my sig." Sigs are volitile and when you decide to remove the link right after the Smuggler revamp is published in the year 2010 then this statement won't make sense anymore. Not important to you now, but it's always good to plan for the future
.OK, I think that's all I have for now. Who wants to click the "1" this time?
kgmkiorys
Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:29 am
#7
There is something i fail to see in your reasonment :
How can a dev see a sig (and furthermore a link in a sig) if this dev doesn't even see the posts?
The hijacking as you mention it, is generally done on either issues threads, and these are issues we mention, so it's on-topic, or on feedback requests, and then again it stays on topic, not on the way initially wanted, but that is feedback we provide.
Unless they finally decide to show up around here and actually communicate, they'll have to go with our issues being mentionned, so that we're sure they're not forgotten, once we are taken into consideration, we can reconsider about hijacking. Actually we aren't enough to be noticed effectively, but when the 3 first page of a topic is debating about smugglers issues, maybe someone will remember we do exist.
Jake-MP
Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:46 am
#8
kgmkiorys wrote:There is something i fail to see in your reasonment :How can a dev see a sig (and furthermore a link in a sig) if this dev doesn't even see the posts?
That's the part about "provide some intelligent insight or contribute to the discussion in a positive manner."
The hijacking as you mention it, is generally done on either issues threads, and these are issues we mention, so it's on-topic, or on feedback requests, and then again it stays on topic, not on the way initially wanted, but that is feedback we provide.
If the thread is on the topic of Smugglers and/or our revamp or if it's a "feedback requested" thread, then commenting or providing feedback about the state of the Smuggler profession is most certain not hijacking a thread. If those are the only times you're commenting, then my frustration isn't directed at you
. I have, however, seen occations where people started complaining about Smuggler's problems in posts that had nothing at all to do with Smugglers. Those are the types of things I'm commenting on (sorry, no specific example off the top of my head and I'm too tired to look for one).Unless they finally decide to show up around here and actually communicate, they'll have to go with our issues being mentionned, so that we're sure they're not forgotten, once we are taken into consideration, we can reconsider about hijacking. Actually we aren't enough to be noticed effectively, but when the 3 first page of a topic is debating about smugglers issues, maybe someone will remember we do exist.
I have a feeling that we're not going to see a whole lot of communication until we're actually on the "what's next" page. I suppose that does have its advantage. During JTL Beta the Dev communication was like nothing I'd seen up to that point. Dev Tracker was absolutely overflowing with posts. If the Smuggler revamp can get half that much attention, we'll be in great shape (though I don't think anybody's contesting that
). But anyway, I agree it would be nice to hear some more from the Devs. Just like in my above example (RE going home), even though I don't always believe what I hear, I still like having information whenever it's available.Message Edited by Jake-MP on 11-23-2004 08:47 AM
kgmkiorys
Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:51 am
#9
the fact that our revamp may or may not come or benefit from the amount of communication that was implemented on jtl beta is not in question, when the revamp occurs, in 2017, it sure will be a great time.
What we are hijacking threads for is about bugs, about issues that are pending. One shouldn't have to wait for an hypothetical revamp to see bugs fixed.
DrevenStrobe
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:30 am
#10
Well...they gave us the spiffy Pirate icon...we might as well use it for something...
Seriously though...while a few guys may get carried away, we do mostly tend to stay "on topic" when we post in feedback threads and such...at least we try to anyway.
Like this latest episode with the space stations handing out "Smuggler" missions. Granted, they may be "Smuggler" missions in name only. But we let them know that it's a slap in the face of every member of the Smuggler profession. I don't see regular terminals or stations handing out "Bounty Hunter" missions to the general population, why do these have to be "Smuggler" missions?
Just label the things something else and we can move on. And while they're at it, they can rename the "Smuggler's" Alliance something else as well. That's the largest slap in the face ever to the Smuggler community. That's like me saying that I want to join the "Bounty Hunter's" Guild...but, I'm not a BH...
So...yeah...until we see some results, we'll keep showing up and giving our feedback where we can. Even if it's only to express our disgust at something.
BTW...is the link in my sig approprietly intelligent enough?
Daturaze
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:56 am
#11
Personally I loved your line of:
"One post said that it can't get any worse because GreenMarine (nor any other dev) hasn't posted here in a long time. Well, who's to say that if we didn't have people out there jumping and waving that maybe the Devs would have stopped by already"
That's awesome!! Taken to a logical conclusion we could use the following analogy:
"If our friend is hit by a car and is struggling to survive on the side of the road we'd be trying to flag down an ambulance, and even though we're in the middle of the street jumping up and down waving our arms for someone to stop - nobody does - they just look atus and think 'Geesh, that guy is too much of a bother - forget that' and motor off"
Should people hijack other threads? No, probably not, but if they're trolling they'll get banned plain and simple. I'm not going to rationalize this as a "Freedom of Speech" issue because we signed away that right by coming on to here, but people are entitled to their opinions, and if they feel the need to complain on a different board - so be it. Even if the devs hate us, at least with a continuing uproar they may look at decisions differently:
DEVA: HEYlet's make a space terminal and call it a Smuggler Terminal.
DEVB: No way man, I don't want to hear more crap from the Smugglers - just call it a general terminal.
of course it could also be that the conversations right now go like this:
DEVA: HEY let's make a space terminal and call it a Smuggler Terminal
DEVB: LOL - Oh man, that'll tie the Smuggler's knickers in a knot - let's do it!!!!
A previous poster said it, and I have to agree, Can't really get much worse.
So, to wrap things up, I guess the main beef I have with your posts is the tone and the attitude (not the fact that you posted because anything that generates a discussion like this is ultimately rewarding) Should we not speak out over what we feel our injustices? Should we just meekly sit quietly by and patiently wait without complaint? The fact that people feel the need to hijack other threads isn't a sign of their IQ, or of their maturity level, or that they're whiners - just that they're tired, that they're frustrated and don't feel they have any option to improve their lot with Smuggler.
Anyway - thanks for brining the topic up (nope, not being sarcastic either! )
)Cheers
Daturaze
Boycarino
Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:07 am
#12
I think that we should not fight. Division amongst ourselves is counterproductive. Live by your own standards and allow others to do the same. It takes all kinds in this world, both the real and pixelated ones.
Dwiggz
Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:35 am
#13
Dude, you make us look like child cause we hijack threads... You make us look unintelligent... I don't see why hijacking threads will be negative on the scoundrels... It can't be worse. Loot revamp... come on... Loot is just a way for them to not add REAL CONTENT to the game.
The threads your talking about are issue or bug threads... So we have to right to post our probs in there... BTW, i almost always bring up the crates issue in those kind of post.
Nous Vaincrons.
The threads your talking about are issue or bug threads... So we have to right to post our probs in there... BTW, i almost always bring up the crates issue in those kind of post.
Nous Vaincrons.
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