Smuggler Archive
Thread: Slicing and the Modern Smuggler
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yimaz
Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:28 pm
#1
Thats a good point and nice idea, Im lost in FD atmand if I add anymore to my plate my head will explode so your on your own with this one!
Epicedion wrote:
Under the current "all damage or all speed" and "all enc or all eff" slice system, I agree it would be bad if we could pick slices. However, if there were 3 or 4 different categories to improve, and you could spread the points out amongst them, you could carefully tailor weapons to individuals who might need only slight speed boosts, or may want the minimum damage to be improved alot to even out their damage average.
What kind of idea are you looking at for more options and points used for slicing? Like a stat migration type of concept?
Epicedion
Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:08 pm
#2
yimaz wrote:
Thats a good point and nice idea, Im lost in FD atm and if I add anymore to my plate my head will explode so your on your own with this one!
Thinking more of an experimentation-style, really, where you can put experimentation points into the various systems (max damage, min damage, base resistance, etc). I've even thought it might be clever to make all the branches of experimentation for slicing show up as "Unknown" until you apply FANs, to make them actually needed. I'm not, however, really into designing systems that'll never get implemented, so.. no real details from me.
LaughingWolf
Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:45 pm
#3
You know, ana's post made me think of something. That maybe it will be overall a GOOD thing for the smiths too, to see them no longer able to sell sliced stuff on their vendor.
Like ana said, right now, because they CAN sell sliced stuff on their vendor they have to, to stay competitive. That mean some of their weapons/armor sell for BIG money (the great sliced one), some of it for less, and a lot of their weapons/armor end up destroyed or sold very low.
If they can no longer sell sliced stuff that will mean they won't have to get their stuff sliced. So no more paying a slicer to slice all their stock only to see a slim percentage of it sell well. They risk selling more weapons/armor, because if someone want that damage slice above 30% they will actually buy 5 or 6 weapons from the weaponsmith and then find a slicer, instead of expecting to find it already sliced on a vendor. Sure, they lose a bit on the huge markup some applied to great sliced stuff, but I think the extra sells + no more slicing to pay + all their stock is sellable will compensate that.
And it put the profit for a great slice back in the hand of the slicer.
Like ana said, right now, because they CAN sell sliced stuff on their vendor they have to, to stay competitive. That mean some of their weapons/armor sell for BIG money (the great sliced one), some of it for less, and a lot of their weapons/armor end up destroyed or sold very low.
If they can no longer sell sliced stuff that will mean they won't have to get their stuff sliced. So no more paying a slicer to slice all their stock only to see a slim percentage of it sell well. They risk selling more weapons/armor, because if someone want that damage slice above 30% they will actually buy 5 or 6 weapons from the weaponsmith and then find a slicer, instead of expecting to find it already sliced on a vendor. Sure, they lose a bit on the huge markup some applied to great sliced stuff, but I think the extra sells + no more slicing to pay + all their stock is sellable will compensate that.
And it put the profit for a great slice back in the hand of the slicer.
Message Edited by LaughingWolf on 02-07-2005 07:45 PM
ana-mo-cara
Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:32 pm
#4
We really need to start a petition for this. Maybe we can get the ws and armorsmith community to sign on. That way the devs might pay attention to it. See no reason why this idea would not be valid.
Kamileon
Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:50 pm
#5
Instead of outright banning contraband (spice & slice) from being sold on player vendors, or the bazaar, how about vendors that are able to be caught by contraband scans as well?
That way, people who chose to brave the risk vs. reward system (that really needs to be inherent to the slice & contraband system) can choose to sell sliced items and spice on their vendors. However, the more contraband items on the vendor, and the higher the advertisement level, the higher radius at which the vendor will be detected at. If it's a simple vendor, with no barking, not advertised on the planetary map, it'll have a much lower chance of being scanned. So, should a wayward contraband patrol happen by a vendor with contrband for sale, advertised on the map, let's say, within 250m, they can scan it. Give Smuggler terminal slicing the ability to "hack" a vendor to give it bonuses to passing scans, and/or give merchants these bonuses in their lines, so that they can choose to place a more secure disguised vendor, at the cost of a higher maintenance rate. (Perhaps in the form of a craftable item the merchant can make, and choose to install in an existing vendor. This could either be a Merchant or Smuggler item?)
Make it more difficult, but not impossible to vendor contraband. Someone could still have a backwater, concealed, modified, non-advertised vendor, and still take the risk, but still sell merchandise. No advertisement, some nice RP "Word of mouth" to tell people about the "special vendor".
The risk?
Make it fines or FP loss, a similar system to whatever the in person contraband scan is. Penalize both the vendor admin, and the house owner, if not the same person. That way, a vendor can still choose to operate, in the face of fines imposed for not complying with the law (think of it as game stores who break street dates and get fined, or liquor stores who don't have their licensing square.)
Stream of consciousness idea storm. Feel free to find holes in it.
That way, people who chose to brave the risk vs. reward system (that really needs to be inherent to the slice & contraband system) can choose to sell sliced items and spice on their vendors. However, the more contraband items on the vendor, and the higher the advertisement level, the higher radius at which the vendor will be detected at. If it's a simple vendor, with no barking, not advertised on the planetary map, it'll have a much lower chance of being scanned. So, should a wayward contraband patrol happen by a vendor with contrband for sale, advertised on the map, let's say, within 250m, they can scan it. Give Smuggler terminal slicing the ability to "hack" a vendor to give it bonuses to passing scans, and/or give merchants these bonuses in their lines, so that they can choose to place a more secure disguised vendor, at the cost of a higher maintenance rate. (Perhaps in the form of a craftable item the merchant can make, and choose to install in an existing vendor. This could either be a Merchant or Smuggler item?)
Make it more difficult, but not impossible to vendor contraband. Someone could still have a backwater, concealed, modified, non-advertised vendor, and still take the risk, but still sell merchandise. No advertisement, some nice RP "Word of mouth" to tell people about the "special vendor".
The risk?
Make it fines or FP loss, a similar system to whatever the in person contraband scan is. Penalize both the vendor admin, and the house owner, if not the same person. That way, a vendor can still choose to operate, in the face of fines imposed for not complying with the law (think of it as game stores who break street dates and get fined, or liquor stores who don't have their licensing square.)
Stream of consciousness idea storm. Feel free to find holes in it.
Aelik Orrigo: Smuggler, Pilot, and Ranger. Kettemoor
Kamileon
Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:56 pm
#6
Epicedion wrote:
yimaz wrote:
Thats a good point and nice idea, Im lost in FD atm and if I add anymore to my plate my head will explode so your on your own with this one!
Thinking more of an experimentation-style, really, where you can put experimentation points into the various systems (max damage, min damage, base resistance, etc). I've even thought it might be clever to make all the branches of experimentation for slicing show up as "Unknown" until you apply FANs, to make them actually needed. I'm not, however, really into designing systems that'll never get implemented, so.. no real details from me.
If slicing were to be experimentable, the Smuggler could get an experimentation pane just like the one the weaponsmith or armorsmith would see when creating the item, or schematic. Make the areas affect the same stats, so a Smuggler could choose where to try to tweak the item for the most benefit. The percentage bonus of the slice would depend both on the Smuggler's experimentation points to expend, as well as the item's original quality. Something that was experimented up really high in the crafting stage would be able to see higher results in the slicing stage.
To keep the balance in things, I do think slicing should be something that can only be done once, and still keep it random, just like experimentation rolls are random, and give it a chance to affect one of the other stats instead -- say you're working inside a gun, and you're trying to wire the firing mechanism directly to the power source, to max out the damage. It could work, it could work really well, giving the gun the extra oomph, and raising the damage, or there's a chance the modification doesn't work, and you end up speeding the gun up, because being close to the main circuit helps it recharge faster.
Stoker
Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:33 pm
#7
All excellent Ideas
Lets hope that the devs read this and can use the ideas in this post along with all the other ideas on this thread to produce a smuggler revamp one day.
Lets hope that the devs read this and can use the ideas in this post along with all the other ideas on this thread to produce a smuggler revamp one day.
coranimus
Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:59 pm
#8
I really like the idea of not being able to sell contraband at a vendor. I dont think NPCs should be able to sell them to an average joe. I dont think I have ever been able to just look in the yellowpages to by illegal arms and or narcotics thats just lame IMHO.
The only people that should be able to do so are people in the underworld. The business's in RL that act as a front are usually only known to other members of the underworld. So if it is possible to buy from an NPC any type of contraband it should require something like Underworld 1 or Investigation from the bounty hunter line. I would think only those skill sets would "be in the know" so to speak.
So for example if I am a smuggler and I know that a customer wants a speed sliced pistol I could use my underworld knowledge to locate a vendor that sells that. Again a bounty-hunter being the type of character that deals with the underworld for purposes of hunting could possibly find this vendor as well.
ana-mo-cara
Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:30 pm
#9
Accept for the fact that players can save waypoints, and word of mouth is super fast.
Accept for the fact within a month common knowledge would be look for weapons vendors, and then look for one with slice or spice in the title.
Then again if that dosent work go to cnet and find the spammer.
Epicedion
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:04 am
#10
You know, this is starting to get a little irritating. Whenever I actually have to go shopping (for resources, fortools, for a new weapon, etc) I always notice these malls and merchant tents have vendors with names like "SLICED WEAPONS" and "72% SLICED ADV COMP" and so on. This starts me thinking:
1) Why don't the Imperials either confiscate all the illegal goods and shut down the shop or
2) Why don't the Imperials stick an agent near the shop, monitor sales, and quietly arrest/interrogate/execute customers?
I have a good reason for wondering this. As a Master Smuggler, I get virtually zero business for slicing, since any Weapon/Armorsmith worth his salt is either permanently partnered with, or has an alt which is, a MasterSmuggler. This makes it such that virtually all weapons and armors (the vast majority, really)are sliced before they're ever made available for sale. This puts a huge dent in the profitability of the class, since our freelancesituational availability is dwarfed by the wholesale mass-market potential for a smuggler with a weapon/armorsmith alt.
Therefore, I have a little idea that I already know everyone will hate. Following these simple steps would make a huge difference in the perception and valueof the Smuggler, as viewed by the non-crafter/non-Smuggler population:
Step 1: Do not allow automatedvendors or the bazaarto carry sliced goods or spices.This is very important, since it's a real theme-breaker to have the omnipresent, oppressive government turn a blind eye to the amount of illegal sales going on at vendors, and especially onesthat are registered with the planetary advertisment councils. It is also severely impacting the playability of part ofthe profession, since there is no reason to not just go buy a pre-sliced item from a wholesale vendor.
Step 2: Require slicing to be done at a specialized crafting stationor workbench item. Make these craftable by Architects, and make their qualityinfluence slicing results.
Step 3: Remove the currentslicing interface from weapons (works fine for terminals, though).Implement an Experimentation interface for slicing. Make FANs as well as Molecular Clamps useful. Allow the Smuggler to 'pick' the type of slice by letting him putexperimentationpointsin Max Damage, Min Damage, and Speed for weapons, and Effectiveness, Encumbrance, and Durability for armor, so that increases can be focused or spread out, according to the whims of the Smuggler and/or his employer. Allow a Smuggler to "de-slice" an itemby usinganother upgrade kit, and more knife/FAN/Clamp resources.
Step 4: Allow CrackdownStormtroopers to "de-slice" weapons and armor (as opposed to confiscating them or fining for them) if they catch you with them.
Effects:
Pros -- Slicers in higher demand due to increased number of required slices (from re-slicing items that got hit by theCrackdown Troopers), slicing work spread out moredue to removal of Slicing Superstore type Vendors, slicing removed from the public eye (read: starport) since a crafting station is required, no more "15% speed?! you ruined my Krayt DE-10 you suck I hate you!", makes Crackdown Troopers seem alotnastier withoutactually making them more dangerous, allows Crackdown Troopers to target Imperials in a non-combat and slightly humorousway("Sir, your weapon seems to have an aberrant power signature.. let me just attach this normalization device to even that out.. there, you're all set!").
Cons -- Hard to get a 'quick slice' (takes more resources, planning, thought, and a crafting station that isn't available in NPC cities), random patrols keep temporarilymessing up your gear, increased cost to consumer (frequency) and increased overhead to Smugglers (quality-based resources).
Guamarhea
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:22 am
#11
Very interesting. I'll take a step back, and try to give yousome constructive/impartialfeedback...for what it's worth 
Epicedion wrote:
Therefore, I have a little idea that I already know everyone will hate. Following these simple steps would make a huge difference in the perception and valueof the Smuggler, as viewed by the non-crafter/non-Smuggler population:
Great start. ANY idea or proposal for the Smuggling community NEEDS to address the fact theat we are not really "in demand" with the rest of the cioommunity.
Step 1: Do not allow automatedvendors or the bazaarto carry sliced goods or spices.This is very important, since it's a real theme-breaker to have the omnipresent, oppressive government turn a blind eye to the amount of illegal sales going on at vendors, and especially onesthat are registered with the planetary advertisment councils. It is also severely impacting the playability of part ofthe profession, since there is no reason to not just go buy a pre-sliced item from a wholesale vendor.
Although I can hear the Armor- and Weaponsmiths complain about this, it DOES make logical sense. Changing the game to get rid of vendors and bazaars stocking sliced goods will turn the entire game on it's ear, and yet if we all just accepted the change (instead of crying endlessly about it) it wouldn't be that bad. The successful 'Smiths would make alliances withmultiple Smugglers in order to always have one handy for "on the spot" slicing. They could also recommend a few trustedSmugglers to their customers.
Although the'Smiths will lose a part of their business because they can't stock sliced goods, I think that overall the game is improved because it creates balance. Furthermore, Smugglers are the only real Underworld profession currently in-game, so it stands to reason that they (and they alone) would be the only ones able todeal in sliced goods. Perhaps there would even be a way for Smugglers alone to list sliced goods on a personal vendor...but the name filter prohibits the use of variations of the words"smuggle" and "slice." This creates more immersion and content as players will have to findSmugglershops by word of mouth and careful searching...just like in RL underworld operations.
Step 2: Require slicing to be done at a specialized crafting stationor workbench item. Make these craftable by Architects, and make their qualityinfluence slicing results.
Again, great as it promotes interdependence of players (which is what MMO means) as well as supports the idea of a player-based economy.
Step 3: Remove the currentslicing interface from weapons (works fine for terminals, though).Implement an Experimentation interface for slicing. Make FANs as well as Molecular Clamps useful. Allow the Smuggler to 'pick' the type of slice by letting him putexperimentationpointsin Max Damage, Min Damage, and Speed for weapons, and Effectiveness, Encumbrance, and Durability for armor, so that increases can be focused or spread out, according to the whims of the Smuggler and/or his employer. Allow a Smuggler to "de-slice" an itemby usinganother upgrade kit, and more knife/FAN/Clamp resources.
A thought: make this skill available either at Slicing 4 or Master Smuggler...it stands to reason that an experienced smuggler would be able to do this, and it would also create a greater call for smugglers to advance up the trees.
Step 4: Allow CrackdownStormtroopers to "de-slice" weapons and armor (as opposed to confiscating them or fining for them) if they catch you with them.
Ooooo. I don't recall seeing this idea anywhere else (yet). This would further increase the demand for smugglers!
Effects:
Pros -- Slicers in higher demand due to increased number of required slices (from re-slicing items that got hit by theCrackdown Troopers), slicing work spread out moredue to removal of Slicing Superstore type Vendors, slicing removed from the public eye (read: starport) since a crafting station is required, no more "15% speed?! you ruined my Krayt DE-10 you suck I hate you!", makes Crackdown Troopers seem alotnastier withoutactually making them more dangerous, allows Crackdown Troopers to target Imperials in a non-combat and slightly humorousway("Sir, your weapon seems to have an aberrant power signature.. let me just attach this normalization device to even that out.. there, you're all set!").
Cons -- Hard to get a 'quick slice' (takes more resources, planning, thought, and a crafting station that isn't available in NPC cities), random patrols keep temporarilymessing up your gear, increased cost to consumer (frequency) and increased overhead to Smugglers (quality-based resources).
I really hope that other people (especially the 'Smith's) are willing to take an objective look at your ideas. If they do, I think they'll be impressed too!
Daturaze
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:22 am
#12
Just a few thoughts......
Epicedion wrote:
Step 1: Do not allow automatedvendors or the bazaarto carry sliced goods or spices.This is very important, since it's a real theme-breaker to have the omnipresent, oppressive government turn a blind eye to the amount of illegal sales going on at vendors, and especially onesthat are registered with the planetary advertisment councils. It is also severely impacting the playability of part ofthe profession, since there is no reason to not just go buy a pre-sliced item from a wholesale vendor. I actually like this idea a lot - once the devs develop a list of illegal items (i.e. things that are sliced) then no merchant will stock them. This also creates the possible skill tree branch for "unethical vendors" which might be interesting (Haven't checked the Underworld/Crimelord thread in awhile so if that's already in there - oops).
Step 2: Require slicing to be done at a specialized crafting stationor workbench item. Make these craftable by Architects, and make their qualityinfluence slicing results. Not sure on this one - I can see the logic in it, but Smuggler isn't a crafting profession per se, so not sure how popular this would be. It makes sense though - if you want a weapon sliced, you're going to have to go to some shady house to get it done. But still, not sure this would fly
Step 3: Remove the currentslicing interface from weapons (works fine for terminals, though).Implement an Experimentation interface for slicing. Make FANs as well as Molecular Clamps useful. Allow the Smuggler to 'pick' the type of slice by letting him putexperimentationpointsin Max Damage, Min Damage, and Speed for weapons, and Effectiveness, Encumbrance, and Durability for armor, so that increases can be focused or spread out, according to the whims of the Smuggler and/or his employer. Allow a Smuggler to "de-slice" an itemby usinganother upgrade kit, and more knife/FAN/Clamp resources.
Step 4: Allow CrackdownStormtroopers to "de-slice" weapons and armor (as opposed to confiscating them or fining for them) if they catch you with them. Well, again, not sure about this - if this were allowed - I could see a trade develop for scan locations "I don't like my slice" "Then go to 333,555 and get it desliced and come back" I'm more partial to the Imperials resetting the weapon as discussed in an earlier post that will make it unsliceable in the future.
Effects:
Pros -- Slicers in higher demand due to increased number of required slices (from re-slicing items that got hit by theCrackdown Troopers), slicing work spread out moredue to removal of Slicing Superstore type Vendors, I suspect that all that will happen is that a vendor will now announce "See my alt for free 'alterations' to this weapon"
Cons -- Hard to get a 'quick slice' (takes more resources, planning, thought, and a crafting station that isn't available in NPC cities), random patrols keep temporarilymessing up your gear, increased cost to consumer (frequency) and increased overhead to Smugglers (quality-based resources). Again, this gets into "what type of profession should Smuggler be - crafting or combat"
Good post!
Cheers
Dat
Darkov
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:35 am
#13
Well, I'm a Master Smuggler, Master Merchant and I have contracts with certain people, none of this hawking outside spaceports rubbish.
I may agree it's not right to sell them off vendors, but you'd cripple me and my partners. Slicing is a job I do on the side, it's not why I'm a smuggle, I should be smuggling, so when that comes in I will be damned if I want to hawk my slicing to make money, filling contracts is fine, but I ain't hawking.
I'd be happy for the Merchant to get a "Underworld" vendor, that can be placed somewhere discreet, but there needs to be the vendor option somewhere.
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