Smuggler Archive
Thread: Slicing and the Modern Smuggler
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Epicedion
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:37 am
#14
[quote]
Well, again, not sure about this - if this were allowed - I could see a trade develop for scan locations "I don't like my slice" "Then go to 333,555 and get it desliced and come back" I'm more partial to the Imperials resetting the weapon as discussed in an earlier post that will make it unsliceable in the future.
[/quote]
I really did think about that, which is why I decided to mention the idea of letting Smugglers de-slice weapons and armoras well (balance of cost versus convenience, finding a smuggler versus finding a scan). AlsoCrackdown troops may not only foul up your gun but may end up taking FPs and/or attacking (and so on.. read: "other various detrimental effects") that wouldn't happen if you justhired a Smuggler to reset your weapon. Hopefully the Crackdown will end up being a bit more than a slap on the wrists, making the choice in the above matter -very- clear.
Another option would be for the de-slicing to also de-certify the weapon, severely reducing its damage output. In the case of armor, I would say that it should cut all resists by 50%. This damage could be repaired, but I haven't really put too much thought into the process -- I'm leaning a bit toward the idea that aSmith would have to repair the Crackdowneffect, to put them in on some of the Crackdown action. And then, of course, a Smuggler would have to re-slice it.
Epicedion
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:49 am
#15
Darkov wrote:
I may agree it's not right to sell them off vendors, but you'd cripple me and my partners. Slicing is a job I do on the side, it's not why I'm a smuggle, I should be smuggling, so when that comes in I will be damned if I want to hawk my slicing to make money, filling contracts is fine, but I ain't hawking.
I'd be happy for the Merchant to get a "Underworld" vendor, that can be placed somewhere discreet, but there needs to be the vendor option somewhere.
(whee, I figured out how to quote a post..)
How would it cripple your partners? Since the only vendor-sold items would be standard, their business would be virtually unaffected.
Sales of sliced goods could still persist, through player-controlled mechanisms. If you offer a "special upgrade" service, you can ask for customers to e-mail you andoutline what they want. You could then prepare the item, and either smuggle it(*gasp*) through starports to deliver it, have them come to you to pick it up, or even offer to sneak it through to their own personal vendor and offer it for a pre-arranged price (I'm not proposing that items can't be sold TO a vendor, just can't be sold FROM a vendor). In any of these cases, it becomes a bit more special, harder to acquire and maintain, and therefore more valuablethan the current set-up.
As with everything else in life, it should all be a balance of risk versus reward. In this case, financial risk versus improved items reward.
WesBelden
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:56 am
#16
Nice post 
. I especially like the two points Yimaz singled out.
. I especially like the two points Yimaz singled out.While I don't want to take away from the Merchant profession, I would like to see the issue of contraband being openly sold on vendors addressed in a suitable manner.
ana-mo-cara
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:59 am
#17
Love your ideas and gave you five stars. To battle off the ninja smiths. I think you hit most of it. Neither weaponsmiths or armorsmiths are hot about being smugglers or useing smugglers. It just drags out the tedium. You just spent 12 hours makeing something and now your going to spend 2 hours sliceing, and tossing otherwise good items out because of bad slices. Ergo you find yourself makeing excessive amounts of stuff just so you can throw a third of them away. When I say throw away I mean destroy.
Here is the thing being a weaponsmith smuggler. I find that I dispise the entire phenomena. I love doing professions that help other players out. It feals good. My bh/medic puts more time into healing player wounds then most docs. So I get a kick out of sliceing stuff for people. Its pretty hard to find sadly. Seeing as weaponsmiths and armorsmiths all slice it themselves. On the other side as a weaponsmith I hate haveing to slice my own stuff just to sell it. I hate spending/ wasteing time overcompensateing for bad slices.
Thats why I ama strong proponent for smuggler goods not being sold on vendors. The answer is obvious and simple. If I cannot sell my stuff presliced then I do not have to slice my stuff. I can take my smuggler out and actually go to a city and slice for people. Sadly smacking these professions together sucks the fun from both of them.
Infact this is a big issue with weaponsmiths/armorsmiths. They have to slice in order to compete. So its not like most of these guys are doing it for greeds sake. If the public demands presliced they have to deliver. Regular smugglers cannot compete though. Simply by vendor smiths are actually able to give players the slice they want. Why gamble when the sure thing is on a vendor.
Maybe we should make this a real issue for smugglers get a petition going on this. Surely it couldnt be to hard to implement. Blocking sliced items from being vendorable. Infact we could push for the same with spices. If the CURB boosts them rub your lucky rabits foot. Then players actually going to a smuggler to get hooked up would be a great roleplay element. Smugglers shouldnt be merchants anyway. We are like wind in the grass never anywhere for too long.
Epicedion
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:59 am
#18
yimaz wrote:
Haha... those weren't actuallysuggestions, I was just imposing a bit of realistic sensibility on the game. To correlate it to the real world, I see it a bit like having Ye Olde Cracke Cocaine Shoppe between the neighborhood Five and Dime and Tienda la Mexicana. If someone opened such a shop, the cops would be having a proverbial field day.
1) Why don't the Imperials either confiscate all the illegal goods and shut down the shop or - because i player spend uber credits for that weapon and it really is not fair to take it, the player base would flip. As far as vendors they would need to let people know a head of time that they could no loner sell them in vendors so people could pull them off, but they should do that for sure.
2) Why don't the Imperials stick an agent near the shop, monitor sales, and quietly arrest/interrogate/execute customers? - man your hardcore,
--------------------------------------------
Step 3: Remove the currentslicing interface from weapons (works fine for terminals, though).Implement an Experimentation interface for slicing. Make FANs as well as Molecular Clamps useful. Allow the Smuggler to 'pick' the type of slice by letting him putexperimentationpointsin Max Damage, Min Damage, and Speed for weapons, and Effectiveness, Encumbrance, and Durability for armor, so that increases can be focused or spread out, according to the whims of the Smuggler and/or his employer. Allow a Smuggler to "de-slice" an itemby usinganother upgrade kit, and more knife/FAN/Clamp resources. - I dont agree with this one either because smugglers should not pick a slice as it will mess up balance in the game, as everyone under the sun would like a damage slice. Also experimentation ruins the "Smuggler of the Fly, work with anything" type of status we are know for. Last point we should not be able to De-slice a weapon, just the Imps.
Under the current "all damage or all speed" and "all enc or all eff" slice system, I agree it would be bad if we could pick slices. However, if there were 3 or 4 different categories to improve, and you could spread the points out amongst them, you could carefully tailor weapons to individuals who might need only slight speed boosts, or may want the minimum damage to be improved alot to even out their damage average.
Nicolas_Frost
Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:16 am
#19
SensiMillia wrote: Some great ideas there, totally agree that Sliced items should not go on the normal vendors. In removing them and instituting a alternative way to sell them, you are immediately creating an Underworld, that has been lacking since the start of the game. At the same time also improving the feel of the GCW. Although you can see 'Smiths n Merchants not liking this concept on initial sight, you could still set up some form of system within the Underworld that would allow them to still sell their wares, but it carries the risk of discovery and say de-slicing of weapons on the vendor/toon My idea (after having a quick death stick) would be how about having a new vendor type, only craftable by Master Smugglers (and would have to sell at a pretty penny), that can only be used for sliced items? A casual glance on the vendor shows regular items, but selecting say 'uber survival knife' takes you to the sliced items page. There would have to be a penalty of having one of these vendors, and a percentage chance of the shop being 'raided' by the Imperials and smuggling vendor being discovered and items being de-sliced or confiscated On the back of this, the Underworld tree could be used for a number of other illegal items as mentioned in other threads - gambling tables, etc etc, the more in one place increasing the percentage chance of being discovered perhaps?
Perhaps, instead of a new kind of vendor and such, they institute an addition to the crackdown. Imperial(or Police Force) NPCs regularly search through vendors in player cities, and when they spot contraband in the vendors, one of two things is done to it.
- Sliced items, get the chance of being re-regulated, they are unsliced, and left unsliceable. Thusly legal again. If the merchant opts out of this choice, the merchandise is confiscated and taken to the Lockup.
- Pure contraband(items that were never illegal in the first place), get confiscated right away and taken to the Lockup.
egbertvanloenen
Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:15 am
#20
Epicedion wrote:
yimaz wrote:
Thats a good point and nice idea, Im lost in FD atm and if I add anymore to my plate my head will explode so your on your own with this one!What kind of idea are you looking at for more options and points used for slicing? Like a stat migration type of concept?
Thinking more of an experimentation-style, really, where you can put experimentation points into the various systems (max damage, min damage, base resistance, etc). I've even thought it might be clever to make all the branches of experimentation for slicing show up as "Unknown" until you apply FANs, to make them actually needed. I'm not, however, really into designing systems that'll never get implemented, so.. no real details from me.
i might have an idea...
Make FAN's alter like 2 out of the 4 possible stats(on weapons: speed/dmg/accuracy/condition and on armour: enc/eff/cond/???) and have clamps alter 2 others. this way, it will be possible to "choose" what to slice, but SOE could still keep their beloved randomness by eithermaking the actual slice a random roll as seen inexperimentation, or a roll as to which stat pops up on the experiment-window. one possibility miht be to use both a FAN and a clamp, then dividing the points in between the 2 stats that pop up. that way, u won't be able to say: i want a dmg slice, but the dmg slice(which for example is on the clamp) doesn't pop up, u just use a FAN, and pray that the speed/acc slice pops up.
note that only one FAN and clamp may be added, and that there is a set number of "experimentation" points available to the smuggler.
this is the best i can think of at the moment...
cpz
Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:47 am
#21
Epicedion wrote:
You know, this is starting to get a little irritating. Whenever I actually have to go shopping (for resources, fortools, for a new weapon, etc) I always notice these malls and merchant tents have vendors with names like "SLICED WEAPONS" and "72% SLICED ADV COMP" and so on. This starts me thinking:
1) Why don't the Imperials either confiscate all the illegal goods and shut down the shop or
2) Why don't the Imperials stick an agent near the shop, monitor sales, and quietly arrest/interrogate/execute customers?
I have a good reason for wondering this. As a Master Smuggler, I get virtually zero business for slicing, since any Weapon/Armorsmith worth his salt is either permanently partnered with, or has an alt which is, a MasterSmuggler. This makes it such that virtually all weapons and armors (the vast majority, really)are sliced before they're ever made available for sale. This puts a huge dent in the profitability of the class, since our freelancesituational availability is dwarfed by the wholesale mass-market potential for a smuggler with a weapon/armorsmith alt.
Therefore, I have a little idea that I already know everyone will hate. Following these simple steps would make a huge difference in the perception and valueof the Smuggler, as viewed by the non-crafter/non-Smuggler population:
Step 1: Do not allow automatedvendors or the bazaarto carry sliced goods or spices.This is very important, since it's a real theme-breaker to have the omnipresent, oppressive government turn a blind eye to the amount of illegal sales going on at vendors, and especially onesthat are registered with the planetary advertisment councils. It is also severely impacting the playability of part ofthe profession, since there is no reason to not just go buy a pre-sliced item from a wholesale vendor.
Step 2: Require slicing to be done at a specialized crafting stationor workbench item. Make these craftable by Architects, and make their qualityinfluence slicing results.
Step 3: Remove the currentslicing interface from weapons (works fine for terminals, though).Implement an Experimentation interface for slicing. Make FANs as well as Molecular Clamps useful. Allow the Smuggler to 'pick' the type of slice by letting him putexperimentationpointsin Max Damage, Min Damage, and Speed for weapons, and Effectiveness, Encumbrance, and Durability for armor, so that increases can be focused or spread out, according to the whims of the Smuggler and/or his employer. Allow a Smuggler to "de-slice" an itemby usinganother upgrade kit, and more knife/FAN/Clamp resources.
Step 4: Allow CrackdownStormtroopers to "de-slice" weapons and armor (as opposed to confiscating them or fining for them) if they catch you with them.
Effects:
Pros -- Slicers in higher demand due to increased number of required slices (from re-slicing items that got hit by theCrackdown Troopers), slicing work spread out moredue to removal of Slicing Superstore type Vendors, slicing removed from the public eye (read: starport) since a crafting station is required, no more "15% speed?! you ruined my Krayt DE-10 you suck I hate you!", makes Crackdown Troopers seem alotnastier withoutactually making them more dangerous, allows Crackdown Troopers to target Imperials in a non-combat and slightly humorousway("Sir, your weapon seems to have an aberrant power signature.. let me just attach this normalization device to even that out.. there, you're all set!").
Cons -- Hard to get a 'quick slice' (takes more resources, planning, thought, and a crafting station that isn't available in NPC cities), random patrols keep temporarilymessing up your gear, increased cost to consumer (frequency) and increased overhead to Smugglers (quality-based resources).
Great Ideas.
Short ofactual smuggling/revamp ideas,this is the single best Smuggler idea I've seen.
Add to it Slicing bonuses/slicing crafting toolsin specific towns (ie Mos Eisley, Nym's, Jabba's Palace) and you breathe life into certain npc towns - one of the dev objectives. And if you then up the Crackdown in those towns, you make slicing more illegal and you increase the chances of Smugglers using their scan evasion skills, as they 'smuggle' their customers from the Cantina through to the starport.
We should push this is as the way we want to move forward.
chance420
Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:25 am
#22
My WS/AS friend and I were having a very similar discussion to this the other night. He expressed a little disdain at the fact that he has spent lots of time/lot space/resources/energy/etc to be able to produce weapons and armor that can compete with other long-time 'smiths on our server only to have an item deemed "bad" or "poor" due to a less than stellar slice. I think that banning sliced items (Imperial Crackdown) from player vendors and the bazaar would be awesome - "forcing" people to seek out a smuggler in order to get items sliced would be great IMNSHO.
The majority of the slices I do are face-to-face, in person deals. I set up shop at the starport and/or cantina and people can seek out my services if they so desire. The interaction at the point of sale is a big thing to me, I like to meet different people (sometimes good, sometimes bad) and I enjoy the interation. Pre-slice vendors do away with that interaction so I'm all for removing that aspect.
I don't think an alternate style vendor ("smuggler vendor") is the alternative due to the fact that many are WS or AS + smuggler. It wouldn't really fix the problem but would rather force most who are WS + AS to choose one or the other and take up smuggler as well or simply run a second acct that houses a smuggler. There are a lot of good punishment/crackdown/check and balance type things listed in this thread that would help to even things out but I do think the answer is simply remove the ability or option to sell illegal spice/slice via vendor/bazaar. As mentioned previously, if this were to take place it would give us an almost immediate "underworld" type feel to things. You want something illegal? Then go see the guys/gals who specialize in that field, not just any random vendor or bazaar.
Maybe if the way slicing works was completely overhauled we would not be having this discussion, a well-thought out smuggler/slice revamp could make this moot. However, the way things are working now with damned near every "good" AS/WS selling pre-sliced items by the hundreds via vendor has got to change.
Give smuggling back to the *real* smugglers, not the alts that only come out to slice and stock vendors or who are simply in it to be FOTM/"keep up with the Jones'".
Word.
The majority of the slices I do are face-to-face, in person deals. I set up shop at the starport and/or cantina and people can seek out my services if they so desire. The interaction at the point of sale is a big thing to me, I like to meet different people (sometimes good, sometimes bad) and I enjoy the interation. Pre-slice vendors do away with that interaction so I'm all for removing that aspect.
I don't think an alternate style vendor ("smuggler vendor") is the alternative due to the fact that many are WS or AS + smuggler. It wouldn't really fix the problem but would rather force most who are WS + AS to choose one or the other and take up smuggler as well or simply run a second acct that houses a smuggler. There are a lot of good punishment/crackdown/check and balance type things listed in this thread that would help to even things out but I do think the answer is simply remove the ability or option to sell illegal spice/slice via vendor/bazaar. As mentioned previously, if this were to take place it would give us an almost immediate "underworld" type feel to things. You want something illegal? Then go see the guys/gals who specialize in that field, not just any random vendor or bazaar.
Maybe if the way slicing works was completely overhauled we would not be having this discussion, a well-thought out smuggler/slice revamp could make this moot. However, the way things are working now with damned near every "good" AS/WS selling pre-sliced items by the hundreds via vendor has got to change.
Give smuggling back to the *real* smugglers, not the alts that only come out to slice and stock vendors or who are simply in it to be FOTM/"keep up with the Jones'".
Word.
STURMTOIFLE
Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:00 pm
#23
Just an idea - with respect to the possibility of "underworld vendors" which - would not likely be located conventionally with other vendors;
Why not make it possible for Merchants to place an "underworld" vendor in an NPC city (like Mos Eisley for instance)?
The Devs are looking for ways to inject some life into NPC towns cities....I think adding an actual underworld trade district where such vendors could be placed would add a great deal to this.
I also want to add my favour for the idea of getting stopped by the Stormies, and having them strip the slices of your weapons and armour.
This just makes sense - I mean, whats the point in the authoritiesnotconfiscating or otherwise "legalizing" illegal/contraband stuff when they have stopped someone for possessing the stuff in the first place? If its just a tax in leu of content, then why not just errect toll booths? 
That said, if this was to be implemented - the weapons and armour should be re-sliceable, but perhaps additional slices should cost item decay?
I mention this, as the adventurer who has a Smuggler friend and a *potentially* nice weapon in his inventory, will get it sliced, (purposely) stripped and re-sliced until he getshis ideal slice.
As items in storage droids for instance, appear to avoid being scanned - this would subsequentlybe a way of ensuring that the addition of this feature couldn't be exploited. I'm sure the would-be criminal would "let" himself getstopped by the Stormies toget rid of a bad slice and prep the weapon for another slice while also allowing him to "hide" his uber weapon in a storage droidonce it was indeedsliced to his satisfaction.
Anyhow, I'm also in favour of experimenting/slicing weapons armour in particular directions (i.e. - high enddamage sliceor a high end encumberance slice for instance).
Some really good ideas here.
SensiMillia
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:28 pm
#24
Some great ideas there, totally agree that Sliced items should not go on the normal vendors. In removing them and instituting a alternative way to sell them, you are immediately creating an Underworld, that has been lacking since the start of the game. At the same time also improving the feel of the GCW.
Although you can see 'Smiths n Merchants not liking this concept on initial sight, you could still set up some form of system within the Underworld that would allow them to still sell their wares, but it carries the risk of discovery and say de-slicing of weapons on the vendor/toon
My idea (after having a quick death stick) would be how about having a new vendor type, only craftable by Master Smugglers (and would have to sell at a pretty penny), that can only be used for sliced items? A casual glance on the vendor shows regular items, but selecting say 'uber survival knife' takes you to the sliced items page. There would have to be a penalty of having one of these vendors, and a percentage chance of the shop being 'raided' by the Imperials and smuggling vendor being discovered and items being de-sliced or confiscated
On the back of this, the Underworld tree could be used for a number of other illegal items as mentioned in other threads - gambling tables, etc etc, the more in one place increasing the percentage chance of being discovered perhaps?
Although you can see 'Smiths n Merchants not liking this concept on initial sight, you could still set up some form of system within the Underworld that would allow them to still sell their wares, but it carries the risk of discovery and say de-slicing of weapons on the vendor/toon
My idea (after having a quick death stick) would be how about having a new vendor type, only craftable by Master Smugglers (and would have to sell at a pretty penny), that can only be used for sliced items? A casual glance on the vendor shows regular items, but selecting say 'uber survival knife' takes you to the sliced items page. There would have to be a penalty of having one of these vendors, and a percentage chance of the shop being 'raided' by the Imperials and smuggling vendor being discovered and items being de-sliced or confiscated
On the back of this, the Underworld tree could be used for a number of other illegal items as mentioned in other threads - gambling tables, etc etc, the more in one place increasing the percentage chance of being discovered perhaps?
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