Smuggler Archive
Thread: Apparently Neutrals/Civilians aren't important.
Page 1 of 6
SmugglinZane
Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:54 pm
#1
Some of you have seen my posts around here regarding the upcoming TEF changes. I finally recieved an answer to Tyrant regarding my concerns. Now either he totally missed the point of my comments, or anyone who wishes to play a neutral/civilian character, but still fully interact with the game is out of luck.
His words: It's a war (as in Star Wars). The choices are pick a side or opt out. (paraphrased, but pretty close.)
Not only do I find this statement a slap in the face considering I brought up players interacting beyond rebel/imp conflicts (meaning scans), but it's a bit condiscending to those of us it affects.
The saddest part to me, and yes I am reading into this, is that this is a telling preview of the revamp. If they will not allow neutrals/civilians to interact with Imperial authority, then any smuggling or scans are pointless. In otherwords, as I stated in another thread, this may be the death of the neutral Smuggler which is one of the most asinine things that can happen to this game.
If they are too busy revelling in the glory that some players are showering upon them to realise that their plans need some adjustment, then they're not as good as they seem to be as of late. Their claims that nothing is set in stone is yet another bit of misinformation or they are too full of themselves to think that they may not have thought of everything.
Yet another reason for the following statement. I play this game for the people I play with, not the game itself. When the game becomes more of a disappointment than being able to play itwith my friends, then another account will be canceled.
Cloudchasing
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:09 pm
#2
I agree whole-heartidly with you. When I started playing, I knew I would be reb-sympathetic, but I really wanted to be nuetral. What better way to be than to play off both sides. Hell, you can't even attack a stormtrooper if you are nuetral. What? You can't defy the empire unless you are a MEMBER of the Alliance?? That's not right, and SOE is severely limiting the scope of this entire game if that's the stand-point they are going to take.
Personally, I don't think you should have to declare a faction. Make it so that if you have 1000+ faction of any different organization, you become a defacto member, then, thru clever manipulation, we could be both imp & reb, getting the benefits of both while at the same time betraying both, working for both, and all that goes with it.
Honestly, I don't think the devs paid any attention to the EU at all. I can understand some limitations, but when there are so many possibilities, it hurts my feelings that they have to set absolutes where it isn't necessary
Arcan
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:27 pm
#3
/agree.
The whole point of Smuggling is simply to make a profit.As a neutral Smuggler, the only deciding factor as to who I would smuggle for would be the amount paid at the end of the job.
I would Smuggle for either group, depending on $$$$.
Without a true criminal underworld in SWG,the only Smuggling jobs probably would be foreither of the 2 factions.
According to Dev posts, a Criminal Underworld is a long way off and will probably be an expansion meaning more $$$ paid for something which should have existed from launch.
BAH!
Nicolas_Frost
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:38 pm
#4
No offence, Zane, but in civil wars, there really are only two main sides. Primarily because at leastone side is of the mindset "you're either with us or you're not". After the two main sides, there are secondary sides which will aid either one out of beliefs, profit, or the thought of the lesser of two evils; or any combination of them.
Lets take the American Revolution. While it was a revolt against Great Brittan, it could also be seen as a civil war. The Colonies were technically Brittish at the start, and the spark that ignited this war was internal to these two sides. While there were weapons and such that were Smuggled into the Colonies, those who did this did so out of profit & beliefs, and they were not joining in the fight(at least, not many andnot officially).
Forward to the American Civil War. It was a revolution as well, however, the side that was revolting failed. Same basic idea as before.
How about the Korean War? North and South Korea were at war. Some nations joined in to help the South, some joined in to help the North. Some only supplied either side.
Itsa war. Wars are based on "what side of the fence people are on". In the end, people riding the fence, civilians, get hurt the most. Its sad, but its true. This new system is a way of moving the people riding the fence to the sidelines. The only downside to this is less interaction amongst them, because they're "out of harm's way".
Cloudchasing
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:42 pm
#5
But, Nicolas, the whole point is that smugglers often times ride the fence and profit off of both sides.
I agree that people need to choose a side, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE too. The way things are right now, the only good being nuetral does is not getting attacked or TEFed by the ST scans.
Nuets have no point in this game, and while I will readily admit that a nuet is giving up a LOT by not choosing a side, they shouldn't be excluded from so much storyline.
P.S. I will gladly take EVERYTHING away from nuetral players if only we can get a meaningful revamp
SOETyrant
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:44 pm
#6
SmugglinZane wrote:
Some of you have seen my posts around here regarding the upcoming TEF changes. I finally recieved an answer to Tyrant regarding my concerns. Now either he totally missed the point of my comments, or anyone who wishes to play a neutral/civilian character, but still fully interact with the game is out of luck.
His words: It's a war (as in Star Wars). The choices are pick a side or opt out. (paraphrased, but pretty close.)
Not only do I find this statement a slap in the face considering I brought up players interacting beyond rebel/imp conflicts (meaning scans), but it's a bit condiscending to those of us it affects.
The saddest part to me, and yes I am reading into this, is that this is a telling preview of the revamp. If they will not allow neutrals/civilians to interact with Imperial authority, then any smuggling or scans are pointless. In otherwords, as I stated in another thread, this may be the death of the neutral Smuggler which is one of the most asinine things that can happen to this game.
If they are too busy revelling in the glory that some players are showering upon them to realise that their plans need some adjustment, then they're not as good as they seem to be as of late. Their claims that nothing is set in stone is yet another bit of misinformation or they are too full of themselves to think that they may not have thought of everything.
Yet another reason for the following statement. I play this game for the people I play with, not the game itself. When the game becomes more of a disappointment than being able to play itwith my friends, then another account will be canceled.
>The saddest part to me, and yes I am reading into this, is that this is a telling preview of the revamp.
Of course your read is not fact, but speculation. All we are doing right now (simplified) is opening the GCW to PvE players so that significantly more people have access to that content.
We certainly understand that Star Wars is more than Rebels and Imperials. But this is the prime conflict that drives the Star Wars universe. We know we need other factions including a vibrant underworld.
We haven't forgotten about smugglers (like you would ever let us 
).
Message Edited by SOETyrant on 02-04-2005 10:49 PM
Cloudchasing
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:51 pm
#7
SOETyrant wrote:
SmugglinZane wrote:
Some of you have seen my posts around here regarding the upcoming TEF changes. I finally recieved an answer to Tyrant regarding my concerns. Now either he totally missed the point of my comments, or anyone who wishes to play a neutral/civilian character, but still fully interact with the game is out of luck.
His words: It's a war (as in Star Wars). The choices are pick a side or opt out. (paraphrased, but pretty close.)
Not only do I find this statement a slap in the face considering I brought up players interacting beyond rebel/imp conflicts (meaning scans), but it's a bit condiscending to those of us it affects.
The saddest part to me, and yes I am reading into this, is that this is a telling preview of the revamp. If they will not allow neutrals/civilians to interact with Imperial authority, then any smuggling or scans are pointless. In otherwords, as I stated in another thread, this may be the death of the neutral Smuggler which is one of the most asinine things that can happen to this game.
If they are too busy revelling in the glory that some players are showering upon them to realise that their plans need some adjustment, then they're not as good as they seem to be as of late. Their claims that nothing is set in stone is yet another bit of misinformation or they are too full of themselves to think that they may not have thought of everything.
Yet another reason for the following statement. I play this game for the people I play with, not the game itself. When the game becomes more of a disappointment than being able to play itwith my friends, then another account will be canceled.
>The saddest part to me, and yes I am reading into this, is that this is a telling preview of the revamp.
Of course your read is not fact, but speculation. All we are doing right now (simplified) is opening the GCW to PvE players so that significantly more people have access to that content.
We certainly understand that Star Wars is more than Rebels and Imperials. But this is the prime conflict that drives the Star Wars universe. We know we need other factions including a vibrant underworld.
We haven't forgotten about smugglers (like you would ever let us :smileyhappy
Thanks so much for the post Tyrant!!!
And a lot of speculation that we have doesn't mean only the CURB, although it's constantly in my head, but also thinking about the upcoming (in the not-so-close future of course) underworld revamp/expansion. A meaningful GCW is one of the most important things that needs to happen in this game, and I understand that. I'm just thinking about our prof and how we will operate post-GCW revamp.
Also, not speaking for anyone else, but I know that everything that we have been told about the new changes is pre-definite information, therefore, you will be making adjustments in the upcoming weeks.
P.S. Glad to see you are looking through our Forums 
Nicolas_Frost
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:54 pm
#8
Cloudchasing wrote:
But, Nicolas, the whole point is that smugglers often times ride the fence and profit off of both sides.
I agree that people need to choose a side, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE too. The way things are right now, the only good being nuetral does is not getting attacked or TEFed by the ST scans.
Nuets have no point in this game, and while I will readily admit that a nuet is giving up a LOT by not choosing a side, they shouldn't be excluded from so much storyline.
P.S. I will gladly take EVERYTHING away from nuetral players if only we can get a meaningful revamp
I agree on this point, and there does need to be valid content for Smugglers to ride the fence. The problem is, riding the fence is based on illegality. Currently, there is none. The Imperial Letdown(even with the Nova Troopers) is proof of that. The next problem is, there is no illegality if there are no set laws. This means that the foundation of the game(the Galatic Civil War) must be sturdy and well done, it must include laws with varrying degrees of penalties, and it must be equal to both sides. Now, I'm the last to defend the devs, but the way things are going, are the path they need to go. There must be laws before there can be law-breakers. There must be crimes before there can be criminals.
Nicolas_Frost
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:59 pm
#9
I hate it when people post the same basic things I was gonna say, but I can't see it because I'm busy with loads of people coming in after midnight. :?
Cloudchasing
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:01 am
#10
Nicolas_Frost wrote:
Cloudchasing wrote:
But, Nicolas, the whole point is that smugglers often times ride the fence and profit off of both sides.
I agree that people need to choose a side, but that doesn't mean that you HAVE too. The way things are right now, the only good being nuetral does is not getting attacked or TEFed by the ST scans.
Nuets have no point in this game, and while I will readily admit that a nuet is giving up a LOT by not choosing a side, they shouldn't be excluded from so much storyline.
P.S. I will gladly take EVERYTHING away from nuetral players if only we can get a meaningful revamp
I agree on this point, and there does need to be valid content for Smugglers to ride the fence. The problem is, riding the fence is based on illegality. Currently, there is none. The Imperial Letdown(even with the Nova Troopers) is proof of that. The next problem is, there is no illegality if there are no set laws. This means that the foundation of the game(the Galatic Civil War) must be sturdy and well done, it must include laws with varrying degrees of penalties, and it must be equal to both sides. Now, I'm the last to defend the devs, but the way things are going, are the path they need to go. There must be laws before there can be law-breakers. There must be crimes before there can be criminals.
OH no no no, I agree with you there. There REALLY needs to be laws in this game as it's hard to break something that doesn't exist, so what could we possibly do to get on the terms? What is it that we have a need to Smuggle? I'm concerned, because to institute even the smallest and easiest of ways to have us smuggle means a massive change to the player base. It will be interesting to see how the devs work through these difficulties and still give us a profession worth having. I'm not completely jaded yet, I still think that the devs are trying to do their best, and I'm willing to be patient and see what happens.
The GCW changes, in anticipation of the CURB, in anticipation of the FULL GCW ReVamp are making changes that I'm assuming (dangerous huh?) are all part of a massive plan and all will go relatively smoothly. That is, the changes will go smoothly unless derailed by unforseen necessary changes.
LunaticFringer
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:18 am
#11
Smuggler has been a both boon and bane to all of us that have carried the profession in game since launch. Most likely the most pushed back profession revamp, rather than 'nerf', as well. I just love how we like to spell the death of the game due to one little detail as well. And I'm sure the Devs would love to be able to give a wink or a small amen to this statement; but they can't.
In regards to the issue of Neutrals not being important; I would just like to remind you that the proposed ideas do not, in any way, stop your smuggler from slicing for both sides. It doesn't stop you from selling spices to both sides. In fact, last time I checked, when my neutral player slapped a stormtrooper he got fined appropriately. True, the downside to neutral is we can't actually shoot an Imperial. Perhaps a better solution here is to suggest that neutrals be subjective to the crackdown as well? That's why the Devs want feedback. If enough of us say; well, what's up with this? Instead of, Hey, this is messed up and I ticked off about it, they'd actually reply more.
Tyrant, our member does have a point though. There should be a small 'tef' system that will allow Neutrals to be involved in the GCW as well. Even if this has to be geared mainly toward the PvE content. Afterall, Han, like a few others, were wanted by the Empire before they joined the Alliance; that just boosted him to most wanted.
Indeed, perhaps a 'Most Wanted' system added to an underground faction would be the best way to allow Neutrals to take part in the GCW. The same rules would apply to Neutrals as Factioned. A PvP/E disabled Neutral smuggler attacks a stormtrooper it ups his status to wanted (enabled) toward the faction he attacked. A bold enough smuggler could then go pay his fine at the faction he attacked; Or go to his underworld boss to go into hiding again and be mercenary (disabled) again. This opens up Neutral to both sides and allows the factions to interact with them as well. This way you could be Rebel without being Rebel; so on and so forth. It's worth a look into!
The Lunatic Fringer
In regards to the issue of Neutrals not being important; I would just like to remind you that the proposed ideas do not, in any way, stop your smuggler from slicing for both sides. It doesn't stop you from selling spices to both sides. In fact, last time I checked, when my neutral player slapped a stormtrooper he got fined appropriately. True, the downside to neutral is we can't actually shoot an Imperial. Perhaps a better solution here is to suggest that neutrals be subjective to the crackdown as well? That's why the Devs want feedback. If enough of us say; well, what's up with this? Instead of, Hey, this is messed up and I ticked off about it, they'd actually reply more.
Tyrant, our member does have a point though. There should be a small 'tef' system that will allow Neutrals to be involved in the GCW as well. Even if this has to be geared mainly toward the PvE content. Afterall, Han, like a few others, were wanted by the Empire before they joined the Alliance; that just boosted him to most wanted.
Indeed, perhaps a 'Most Wanted' system added to an underground faction would be the best way to allow Neutrals to take part in the GCW. The same rules would apply to Neutrals as Factioned. A PvP/E disabled Neutral smuggler attacks a stormtrooper it ups his status to wanted (enabled) toward the faction he attacked. A bold enough smuggler could then go pay his fine at the faction he attacked; Or go to his underworld boss to go into hiding again and be mercenary (disabled) again. This opens up Neutral to both sides and allows the factions to interact with them as well. This way you could be Rebel without being Rebel; so on and so forth. It's worth a look into!
The Lunatic Fringer
Rueger_Karde
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:35 am
#12
Yay! Top dog on our forums. Its always fun to see a red name here.
*ponders about the name GreenMarine that flashed into his head* Oh well, must be deja vu...
sbob
Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:31 am
#13
One thing that I think might be done even in the new system is that still have the neutrals be stopped scanned and all but the option you have is you either suck it up and pay the fines or you pick up your weapon of choice and fight agaisnt it. Could have it be something along a pop up of the you have been fined $xXx credits 1) pay 2) attack and become a rebel combatant. As for the selling, slicing gunrunning all of that can still be done as a neutral you just can not fight back. IF they add in the choice when you are oppressed by the empire to fight back (or in future if the rebels do something that offends you) you can become a combatant. But unless you take up the gun against one side you are in the middle. Till you pick a side you are in the middle. And there is nothing that stops you from 'resigning' from combatant later and going back to being a civilian.
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