Smuggler Archive

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Loki_Ashaman wrote:

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Crizis wrote:

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_scout_ wrote:

Your first post is missing any contribution to the thread at all (werent you complaining about that?).
And in your second post your missed the whole point of

• Why we complain about communciation.



• Why I then posted all those links.

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Good friend, C-Troll here, I guess, LOL. Here's the executive summary:

Upon following DevTracker to see what the Devs are up to, as it is sometimes informative to see how devs respond and communicate, I was presented with 4 pages of Trolls trolling about lack of communication in response to a request for dev-consideration info.

Of course, as any half-squill knows, communication is an issue, which is why, redundant, I was following DevTracker in the first place.So,4 pages of communication-troll-posts later, I was no better informed on what the issues were, and how a dev (if presented with issues rather than communication complaints) might respond in the latest itteration of dev behavior.

I did, to be constructive, and having spent the time to read each post, mention to the folks that they might have used the time more constructively, so if that in itself served some purpose, it was time well spent.

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Really? We've been really clear on the issue: We don't know what direction the Devs what to take our profession. Aka, Communication. Now, we could have posted dozens of posts asking for this bug to be fixed or this special to work a little better or to have a special that does that or to have an SL only this or that. Why didn't we? Because we would like a little more then a few bug fixes, we'd like our profession to be fleshed out a little better. But we don't know the Dev direction, and all of those requests are junk if they don't follow the Dev vision for our prof and thus are tossed in the circular file right away. You were presented with a post linking lots of concepts we have, more likely then not as you browse them you will notice the dozens of different concepts that we've followed.

We could sit here and post all sorts of cool ideas, but those ideas end up all over the board because we don't know where to focus. For many of us, our main issue keeps coming back to the fact that we don't know what the Devs want to do with us, and apparently neither do they and thus I'll reiterate my initial post in response to Darth's question:

What is your vision for Squad Leader? What can we the SL community do to help further SL towards that vision? If you don't have a vision (or any freaking clue of what to do with us), what can we the SL community do that we are not already doing to help form a vision?

There are my three questions. For me, until those are answered and known, there really isn't much productive that can be accomplished to improve our profession besides the odd bug fix. You want to know the issue, that is our issue, take a moment to reflect on that.

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Good points. I can't argue against them. Still, to others... a correspondent asked a question, a dev immediately posted an interest, and it seems a wasted opportunity.

As for SL's not wanting other input here, we're all in this together. We all have issues, we are all players. Communication issues are not limited to any one profession. This may be IMHO strictly my view, but that's why I follow devs conversations where-ever they may land, because we are all fellow players, and how they interact and how responsive they are, is an important issue to all of us. I have, among my toons, lived some roles for various points of time among probably 25 professions, or any combination of 15 at any given time. We're not fighting each other now are we? We can't control the devs, but we can do our best to communicate towards them, present ideas, and maybe even sometimes get a reply. This seemed like one of those opportunities.

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KJFett3 wrote:

People are answering the subject of the thread. That if a dev posted, they would address communication. That troll flamed them fordiscussing what they felt was an issue and you are going to say you agree with him and are ashamed of Squad Leaders? Ashamed that they askedquestions that they felt needed addressed?

If they wanted to ask a Dev what flavor soda they drink, that's for them to ask and it would be related to the subject of the thread. Now, true it should be kept related to SL as it is the SL forums, but communication is a SL issue as much as it is anyone elses. If that's what they want to talk about...who are we to judge? Its what they think is important. We all have priorities in what we want to see fixed in Squad Leader. I'm not going to flame someone because they want /retreat fixed before /steadyaim. Why flame soeone because they want clear communication in the process of what we are and how they see us right now and want us to be?

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That is word-play. IMHO, the correspondent was not asking about communication issues, every profession has that, and no profession can claim a monopoly on that. You are being disingenuous if you're claiming that peeps sitting back and complaining as they did was intended to meet the need that the correspondent was asking input on. Read the last post above.

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Crizis wrote:

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Loki_Ashaman wrote:

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Crizis wrote:

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_scout_ wrote:

Your first post is missing any contribution to the thread at all (werent you complaining about that?).
And in your second post your missed the whole point of

• Why we complain about communciation.



• Why I then posted all those links.

---

Good friend, C-Troll here, I guess, LOL. Here's the executive summary:

Upon following DevTracker to see what the Devs are up to, as it is sometimes informative to see how devs respond and communicate, I was presented with 4 pages of Trolls trolling about lack of communication in response to a request for dev-consideration info.

Of course, as any half-squill knows, communication is an issue, which is why, redundant, I was following DevTracker in the first place.So,4 pages of communication-troll-posts later, I was no better informed on what the issues were, and how a dev (if presented with issues rather than communication complaints) might respond in the latest itteration of dev behavior.

I did, to be constructive, and having spent the time to read each post, mention to the folks that they might have used the time more constructively, so if that in itself served some purpose, it was time well spent.

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Really? We've been really clear on the issue: We don't know what direction the Devs what to take our profession. Aka, Communication. Now, we could have posted dozens of posts asking for this bug to be fixed or this special to work a little better or to have a special that does that or to have an SL only this or that. Why didn't we? Because we would like a little more then a few bug fixes, we'd like our profession to be fleshed out a little better. But we don't know the Dev direction, and all of those requests are junk if they don't follow the Dev vision for our prof and thus are tossed in the circular file right away. You were presented with a post linking lots of concepts we have, more likely then not as you browse them you will notice the dozens of different concepts that we've followed.

We could sit here and post all sorts of cool ideas, but those ideas end up all over the board because we don't know where to focus. For many of us, our main issue keeps coming back to the fact that we don't know what the Devs want to do with us, and apparently neither do they and thus I'll reiterate my initial post in response to Darth's question:

What is your vision for Squad Leader? What can we the SL community do to help further SL towards that vision? If you don't have a vision (or any freaking clue of what to do with us), what can we the SL community do that we are not already doing to help form a vision?

There are my three questions. For me, until those are answered and known, there really isn't much productive that can be accomplished to improve our profession besides the odd bug fix. You want to know the issue, that is our issue, take a moment to reflect on that.

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Good points. I can't argue against them. Still, to others... a correspondent asked a question, a dev immediately posted an interest, and it seems a wasted opportunity.

As for SL's not wanting other input here, we're all in this together. We all have issues, we are all players. Communication issues are not limited to any one profession. This may be IMHO strictly my view, but that's why I follow devs conversations where-ever they may land, because we are all fellow players, and how they interact and how responsive they are, is an important issue to all of us. I have, among my toons, lived some roles for various points of time among probably 25 professions, or any combination of 15 at any given time. We're not fighting each other now are we? We can't control the devs, but we can do our best to communicate towards them, present ideas, and maybe even sometimes get a reply. This seemed like one of those opportunities.

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KJFett3 wrote:

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DiLune wrote:

Sadly I agree with Crizis. For the first time in 2 years I am utterly ashamed of the Squad Leaders. Tiggs posts and the best most can come up with are whines about communication. When someone points that out he's shouted down as if he isn't 100% right.

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Utterly ashamed of Squad Leaders?!

People are answering the subject of the thread. That if a dev posted, they would address communication. That troll flamed them fordiscussing what they felt was an issue and you are going to say you agree with him and are ashamed of Squad Leaders? Ashamed that they askedquestions that they felt needed addressed?

If they wanted to ask a Dev what flavor soda they drink, that's for them to ask and it would be related to the subject of the thread. Now, true it should be kept related to SL as it is the SL forums, but communication is a SL issue as much as it is anyone elses. If that's what they want to talk about...who are we to judge? Its what they think is important. We all have priorities in what we want to see fixed in Squad Leader. I'm not going to flame someone because they want /retreat fixed before /steadyaim. Why flame soeone because they want clear communication in the process of what we are and how they see us right now and want us to be?

I am ashamed that a Corro would back a troll and belittle Squad Leaders that voiced their opion on the Squad Leader forum. I am further ashamed that you did all that and didn't add to the topic in the post aside from flame all the Squad Leaders. That is bad form for a Corro in my book.

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I have been posting to the SL forums since about 2 weeks after launch. I have been a SL, never dropped it, since a month and a half after launch. Where so many have left the game and SL community, I have not. So when I say that posting to the Devs with whines about communication when the spotlight has been made available for actual SL issues is shameful, I mean it.

Communication does suck, deal with it. But how about while Tiggs is still mildly interested (if she gets to this part even) you post out real SL issues. And I don't mean putting in links. Devs won't go to links. How do I know? I've been doing a job as a corr busting my hump to get things like SL issues looked at by the Devs since I got into office. Don't believe me? Ask any corr or anyone else who's been around during my time. I'm the marksman corr but I have always been a champion of SL, even when other SL corrs have quit I always do my duty to the SL community to make sure its voice isn't silenced.

And I posted quite a bit earlier in this thread about the issues I'd like to have Tiggs get answers for, thank you very much.

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Crizis wrote:

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Loki_Ashaman wrote:

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Crizis wrote:

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_scout_ wrote:

Your first post is missing any contribution to the thread at all (werent you complaining about that?).
And in your second post your missed the whole point of

• Why we complain about communciation.



• Why I then posted all those links.

---

Good friend, C-Troll here, I guess, LOL. Here's the executive summary:

Upon following DevTracker to see what the Devs are up to, as it is sometimes informative to see how devs respond and communicate, I was presented with 4 pages of Trolls trolling about lack of communication in response to a request for dev-consideration info.

Of course, as any half-squill knows, communication is an issue, which is why, redundant, I was following DevTracker in the first place.So,4 pages of communication-troll-posts later, I was no better informed on what the issues were, and how a dev (if presented with issues rather than communication complaints) might respond in the latest itteration of dev behavior.

I did, to be constructive, and having spent the time to read each post, mention to the folks that they might have used the time more constructively, so if that in itself served some purpose, it was time well spent.

---

Really? We've been really clear on the issue: We don't know what direction the Devs what to take our profession. Aka, Communication. Now, we could have posted dozens of posts asking for this bug to be fixed or this special to work a little better or to have a special that does that or to have an SL only this or that. Why didn't we? Because we would like a little more then a few bug fixes, we'd like our profession to be fleshed out a little better. But we don't know the Dev direction, and all of those requests are junk if they don't follow the Dev vision for our prof and thus are tossed in the circular file right away. You were presented with a post linking lots of concepts we have, more likely then not as you browse them you will notice the dozens of different concepts that we've followed.

We could sit here and post all sorts of cool ideas, but those ideas end up all over the board because we don't know where to focus. For many of us, our main issue keeps coming back to the fact that we don't know what the Devs want to do with us, and apparently neither do they and thus I'll reiterate my initial post in response to Darth's question:

What is your vision for Squad Leader? What can we the SL community do to help further SL towards that vision? If you don't have a vision (or any freaking clue of what to do with us), what can we the SL community do that we are not already doing to help form a vision?

There are my three questions. For me, until those are answered and known, there really isn't much productive that can be accomplished to improve our profession besides the odd bug fix. You want to know the issue, that is our issue, take a moment to reflect on that.

---

Good points. I can't argue against them. Still, to others... a correspondent asked a question, a dev immediately posted an interest, and it seems a wasted opportunity.

As for SL's not wanting other input here, we're all in this together. We all have issues, we are all players. Communication issues are not limited to any one profession. This may be IMHO strictly my view, but that's why I follow devs conversations where-ever they may land, because we are all fellow players, and how they interact and how responsive they are, is an important issue to all of us. I have, among my toons, lived some roles for various points of time among probably 25 professions, or any combination of 15 at any given time. We're not fighting each other now are we? We can't control the devs, but we can do our best to communicate towards them, present ideas, and maybe even sometimes get a reply. This seemed like one of those opportunities.

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Thank you sir.

As for the some not wanting non-SL input,we are all in this together. In the name of game balance, a single profession can't think its going to get everything it wants because that willlimit playability and / or focus of other professions. Having non-SLs drop a line here and comment is good in that regards, if its along the lines of the issue or question at hand. I troll redname posts for the same reason, to see how the different professionsand communities react to the Dev changes relating to them (prof / communities).

DiLune, yeah we've put alot of text into communication. Darth asked us what we would ask, and I stated my question(s) as did others. I feel lost right now as an SL and have for awhile now. I feel like a leaderless soldier who doesn't know his objectives, like an officer out on a long term assignment who hasn't recieved any communication from command and the last directives he's recieved are many months out of date. That's my position, and I'll keep pounding that: I want to know a vision of where the Devs would like to take SL. For every direction we've gone, the Devs could go another, and thus anything they put into a publish could be something totally different then what we're expecting. Give us a direction to focus our creativity, even just a Dev created "In Concept: Define Squad Leaders" thread for the SWG community to post ideas into and get Dev feedback.

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DiLune wrote:

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KJFett3 wrote:

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DiLune wrote:

Sadly I agree with Crizis. For the first time in 2 years I am utterly ashamed of the Squad Leaders. Tiggs posts and the best most can come up with are whines about communication. When someone points that out he's shouted down as if he isn't 100% right.

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Utterly ashamed of Squad Leaders?!

People are answering the subject of the thread. That if a dev posted, they would address communication. That troll flamed them fordiscussing what they felt was an issue and you are going to say you agree with him and are ashamed of Squad Leaders? Ashamed that they askedquestions that they felt needed addressed?

If they wanted to ask a Dev what flavor soda they drink, that's for them to ask and it would be related to the subject of the thread. Now, true it should be kept related to SL as it is the SL forums, but communication is a SL issue as much as it is anyone elses. If that's what they want to talk about...who are we to judge? Its what they think is important. We all have priorities in what we want to see fixed in Squad Leader. I'm not going to flame someone because they want /retreat fixed before /steadyaim. Why flame soeone because they want clear communication in the process of what we are and how they see us right now and want us to be?

I am ashamed that a Corro would back a troll and belittle Squad Leaders that voiced their opion on the Squad Leader forum. I am further ashamed that you did all that and didn't add to the topic in the post aside from flame all the Squad Leaders. That is bad form for a Corro in my book.

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I have been posting to the SL forums since about 2 weeks after launch. I have been a SL, never dropped it, since a month and a half after launch. Where so many have left the game and SL community, I have not. So when I say that posting to the Devs with whines about communication when the spotlight has been made available for actual SL issues is shameful, I mean it.

Communication does suck, deal with it. But how about while Tiggs is still mildly interested (if she gets to this part even) you post out real SL issues. And I don't mean putting in links. Devs won't go to links. How do I know? I've been doing a job as a corr busting my hump to get things like SL issues looked at by the Devs since I got into office. Don't believe me? Ask any corr or anyone else who's been around during my time. I'm the marksman corr but I have always been a champion of SL, even when other SL corrs have quit I always do my duty to the SL community to make sure its voice isn't silenced.

And I posted quite a bit earlier in this thread about the issues I'd like to have Tiggs get answers for, thank you very much.

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DiLune wrote:

I have been posting to the SL forums since about 2 weeks after launch. I have been a SL, never dropped it, since a month and a half after launch. Where so many have left the game and SL community, I have not. So when I say that posting to the Devs with whines about communication when the spotlight has been made available for actual SL issues is shameful, I mean it.

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/agree

Y'all really need to ratchet back some of the open hostility and anti-dev rhetoric around here. We all know communication has been sub-optimal for far too long. Drop it already. I was half joking when I initially posted this thread, but Tiggs called my bluff and accepted my dare.

In retrospect, I probably should have been more specific and wrote:

". . . what would you ask (that is on-topic for the Squad Leader forum, but isn't a meta-discussion about how muchSOE sucks at communication)."

Now, Tiggs has already responded and told us she won't be back from vacation for a week. So, take a deep breath - but don't try to hold it. In the remaining time, I'd like to see us as a community have moved on from railing on the various communication and abandonment issues and try to focus on the question at hand.

This forum used to be a nice place to visit and colaborate. If I need to get the moderators in here to play watchdog on the cross-forum trolling, I will. But please try to be a little more tolerant of the interlopers. I know we are a tight-knit group, but antagonizing the developers and other members of the SWG community (especially other Correspondents) just makes my job harder.

In summary, keep it on topic and keep it polite.

Personally, I've posted quite a bit different things. I have to agree with Loki on this not that I have loyalty to him, but because it's true. Aside from that, I don't care who posts here just as long as it's SL related. For all I care a Dancer could've asked a question about SL's and I would've held it valid. I respect all long time SLs because of their veteran status with the profession. That's why I communicate with you directly rather than in a whole separate thread. Threads are pointless when they cover the same material over and over again. Scout and Sylow have posted many ideas that are good and some of them I would like to see implemented, others I see as IMO stupid. But, to each their own. But when people like Scout sum up what would like to be seen, what else is there to say? If others would have stuck to the SL location, none of this would've happened. I'm not mad at anyone here, but if someone is concerned with communication then that is their right to ask. Regardless if it's been said before. The same could be said about the bugs we've got. It is each individual's right to ask what concerns them. This is my POV, and only that. I will stick by each and every veteran's side on any matter, but I feel that being a well, yes, new SL and one that plays to play the profession and not to reach Jedi, I feel that I will include myself on any topic that has to do with SL. A fresh voice sometimes gives wonders.

*To all of you veteran SLs /salute from one who wishes to make himself a more effective SL*

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Darth_Sushi wrote:

". . . what would you ask (that is on-topic for the Squad Leader forum, but isn't a meta-discussion about how muchSOE sucks at communication)."

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/ponder

I'd stick to my initial question about what their vision is for SL, not to troll / bash / flame / etc, but because I seriously want to know.

If that question is viewed as too close to SOE meta-communication, then my questions would be "Will SLs be getting a revamp or tweaks over a few publishes as mentioned at FanFest (I think)? If so, what type of blanket estimate time wise can we expect them?A few publishes afterthe upcoming bug publishes? A few months down the road? Will these be just SL-specific bugand special fixes, or is there a potential for additions to SL to fill out our skill trees and master box a little more? Can we expect to see concept / discussion / feedback document - posts about any potential additions or is there anything you can share with us before it hits Test Center?"

/set camp; /open pie-cooler; /open thermos

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AlienEntity wrote:

DOH! I could really use a loyal rebel Oh, well, back to helping with the siege of Riverbend.

Wow.. this is the longest thread we've had in a while... We all fell for the redname bait again.


Hopefully this time things will come through, tho. With a little luck we'll finally get some long-deserved and awaited answers when Tiggs returns...

But you know the saying... Wish in one hand, Bantha Poodoo in the other.. see which one fills first..