Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
I'm questioning my sanity by jumping in here now, but here goes...
Contraband - Um. Wasn't the "Crackdown" going to go in without any thoughts of Smugglers at all until someone brought up the bright idea that Smugglers should be included? So, you would have had the scans and such without the possibility of avoiding them by grouping with a Smuggler at all, so at least you now have that option.
Slicing "Kits" - (Despite the fact that the MagSeals aren't slicable) Let's take a trip back to the good old PnP RPGs, shall we? How many times did we see players with Fighter characters pull out a "Lockpick Kit" and open that locked door or chest? Hmmm? Never. Had to have a Thief to do that. While I hate to equate Smugglers with Thieves, there ya go.
StGabriel wrote:
A lot of the things that come up, however, necessarily have an impact on other players. Contraband scans or for a more recent item (albeit one that has been in the game for quite some time), opening maglocks, cut into the game that other non-smugglers play. As a non-smuggler, when solo'ing caves, I find that I cannot open most of the containers. As a non-smuggler and a rebel or neutral I find that I have no defense against scans when I am solo'ing or in a group that does not contain a smuggler.
Smugglers cannot open Mag-seal containers. These are on a timer (just like piles of trash). When there isn't anyloot in them, they give you the message that they are locked. When there is loot in them, you can open them. When the loot is removed, the mag-seel container locks until more loot is generates.
This is just typical.
First, the crackdown is going to go in, and no one thinks of the smugglers in that patch. It's just gonna happen.
Somewhere along the line,the devs hatchan idea that they could give the smugglers a little content by giving them a way todeflect (not avoid) the scans. And better yet, people grouped with a smuggler can get the benefit as well, oh happy day.
But they give "high ranking imperials" a pass on the scans. Droid modules bypass the scans. Then, they turn down the scanning frequency. All in all, these changesmake this blip on the smuggler content radar screen pointless.
Now, a month later, we're being blamed for the inconvenience of being scanned. How dare we, as smugglers, impact on someone elses game play.
If I wasn't laughing so hard...
StGabriel wrote:
Your ideas so far consist of endorsing that Smugglers become cute accessories rather than cogs in the galaxy's machinery. You seem to want us to be decoration rather than have any unique, substantive role to play, and you want to use illegal services without facing any risk.
Meh. Far from it, as I have explained several times.
You want me to depend on a smuggler more than I depend on any pure crafting profession (apparently) and more than I depend on entertainers or medics despite a general player feeling that the game is already full of too many time-consuming dependencies.
And I'm just telling you that other players are going to severely dislike this and would be adamantly opposed if this were ever really implemented. That's a reality that would be better address now than later.
And there are lots of ways to make players depend on and be greatly aided by Smugglers without creating a big smuggle timesink or restricting player options.
But anyway, I have to take off for the evening. I'll be around early tomorrow morning (I'm in Europe) to once again address replies as I can.
Flame on.(I really did intend this as simply a construction discussion however and I hope that we can focus on that -- whether you like what I'm saying or not, I think you'll find that I represent a common sentiment among non-Smugglers)
StGabe.
Gabe, you're not telling us anything we don't already know. Players don't want consequences in this game. They want to be able to solo. They want to be able to have all skills all the time. They don't want what they've gotten used to having for free being taken away from them, even if it was never INTENDED to be free in the first place. We know all this. So you're not telling us anything shocking or new here.
The only thing you're doing is driving this point home. You say you want to make the game fun. So do we. We want it fun for us. We want there to be risks involved in making certain choices. You seem to be against this position. Let me explain this in VERY simple terms here.
1.) Contraband (spice and sliced items) are illegal. They are not needed. You say "But how can I be competitive if I have to rely on a smuggler to use this stuff??" Guess what. You don't. You don't have to use it at all. You can choose to use unsliced weapons or chef foods and doctor/entertainer buffs instead. And you know what? Every single other PVPer out there will face the same choice. And just to be ABSOLUTELY clear here, let me outline the choice: Option 1 -- use illegal items and run the RISK (not certainty, but high probability) of being caught and penalized; or Option 2 -- group with a smuggler or use a smuggler in some other way to beat scans/control points and still use your illegal items. Nowhere in those two choices are you DENIED the ability to use those items. Now, if we made sliced items unique only to the smuggler who slices them (IE: only that smuggler can use them), maybe you'd have a point if retroactively we yoinked everything that had ever been sliced. But that's not being suggested. All we're suggesting is that people have a CHOICE in the matter. And no, this isn't like saying "Well, I don't need a swordsman in my group, why should I need a smuggler?" You don't need a smuggler. Nor do you need a swordsman. But boy it sure does help if you HAVE one. You can still go it alone, but you're much better off grouping with the smuggler or swordsman. Why? Becuase the two professions (ideally) have a valuable role to play. Not a REQUIRED role, but a VALUABLE role.
2.) Regarding this smuggling kits issue and wanting to slice mag-seal containers. Again, you would have a choice. Option 1 -- wait for the container to unlock on the timer; or Option 2 -- bring a smuggler along and get instant gratification. In both cases, the container DOES open. In one, you choose to rush off to the dungeon and then be patient on the back end for the container to open. In the other, you choose to be patient for a smuggler to group with on the FRONT end, and get instant gratification on the back end when you open the container. But in both cases, the container opens. No one denies you your loot. Again, this is simply a choice. No one forced your hand. And no, this isn't like "But why should I need weaponsmithing to use a sword?" You don't. You don't need Rifleman to use a Rifle either. Hell, you don't even need to invest in marksman to do it. But boy it sure does help if you choose to do so.
This is why people aren't buying it when you say "I'm all about fun and I want risks too, but they have to be fun." You really don't seem to be about risks or choices, based on how I've read your posts. You want instant gratification and an avoidance of consequences. You've become wedded to the idea that you HAVE to have or NEED to have contraband. You don't. In fact, if these things ALONE were taken and made truly illegal, you'd still have the same choice that every other PVPer out there would. Use the illegal gear and risk getting caught for the benefit of being powerful and competitive in PvP, bring a smuggler along to avoid the scans and such, or use legal gear. No one would force your hand. You'd still have the choices presented to you, as they would be to everyone else. The playing field would be level. It's not as if you ALONE would face the consequences of such a change.
I'll give you another example, too. Let's say we introduced taxed goods and tariffs. Let's say that, on certain planets, certain goods became taxed. Not illegal to own, just taxed for imporation purposes. The first time (and every time) you enter that planet with such goods (as opposed to travelling ON the planet), you get scanned and are taxed X amount for every unit of Y that you own or every item Z that you're carrying (let's say it was Tatooine sunburn and the corellians don't want you importing it without paying them a tax). Now, you could set this up so that carrying over X amount (say, the "personal use" exception) of an item would be ok, but that the game would scan your entire inventory, not just the stacks. You'd have a few options available.
Option 1: Don't transport the stuff onto that planet (duh).
Option 2:Transport the stuff and build the tax into your prices. When someone says "hey, your prices are too high" you tell them, "Look pal, I have to pay for this building, that vendor, my factories,harvesters, AND shuttle tickets to get this stuff, plus throw away useless schematics on things that aren't top notch AND pay taxes on this thing. You think you're gettin' a free ride here?" And, as stated, you build it into the cost. If Codoan copper is taxed at 3 credits per every 5 units, and it took you 30 units to make the gun, you bump your price up by 18 credits and cover your costs for taxes. And since this tax would apply to everyone, ALL the players on your planet would feel the burn, so to speak. So, they could either bump their prices up, or not, as economics dictated for them (maybe they've got a PA funding them, so they can discount their prices.)
Option 3: Hire a smuggler to move the goods. The upside? If the smuggler beats those scans and gets the stuff in, you LEAVE your prices at the higher levels and turna MUCH higher profit! The downside? If the smuggler gets caught, there's a chance they'll have to dump the resources. But hey, if you want a sure thing, pay the taxes. After all, death and taxes are the only two sure things in life.
So, again, no one is being "forced" to do something. At least no more so than someone else. these would be system-wide changes that would apply to ALL players. All players would have CHOICES, and there would be CONSEQUENCES for those choices. No one would be DENIED content, they'd just be denied the free ride that currently exists.
THIS is what many of us are looking for from smuggling. And we don't think it's an unreasonable request, either. Hell, you could even make things like existing sliced weapons and such "grandfathered in" under the new Imperial edicts. All old sliced gear would retain its stats, but lose its "contraband" tag. All new sliced gear would have the tag. Eventually, the gear would wear out, and you'd be faced with THE SAME CHOICE AS EVERYONE ELSE -- Break the law and run the risk, or play it safe and lose the reward.
If you say that's no fun, then I guess our definitions of fun are different. I like fun with risk, and I don't see these choices as a hassle. I don't see it as any more of a hassle to group with a smuggler to avoid scans than I see it as a hassle to group with a doctor to avoid getting killed and being "forced" to go to the cloning center or to group with a scout to avoid being "forced" to wait around on my own to heal outside of a camp, or grouping with an entertainerto avoidbeing "forced" to go to a cantina.
This is the key problem with many players in this game. They view "either/or" choices as being "forced" and that simply is an inaccurate assessment of the situation borne out of their own complacency and sense of entitlement. You yourself articulated this, Gabe, with your views of contraband. You seem to feel "forced" to use it and claim that a robust contraband system that actively punished EVERYONE who used contraband when they get caught would somehow deny your ability to competitive in PvP. In fact, everyone would be faced with the same dilemma, therefore the playing field would be level, as it is now. This would just add a new nuance to PvP. Are you going up against someone with sliced gear? Maybe so. But if you are, chances are they either brought a smuggler buddy along, or ran some serious risks in getting to you. Then again, the same could be said of you. Maybe YOU'RE the badass with the sliced gear and the smuggler buddy, or the mean attitude that lets you gun your way through contraband checkpoints. Regardless, all PvPers would face the same choices. They wouldn't be limited to one group. And if you wanted the benefits of being a smuggler, you'd have to either bring one along, or take the skills necessary to get those benefits. After all, we smugglers give up plenty of upper level combat abilities to move our illegal junk around. Even if you went up against a combat smuggler, you'd still have an even chance at least, since you'd have devoted your time to learning combat skills and not learning sneaky ways to beat the authorities AT THE EXPENSE OF learning combat skills.
Smugglers have been working towards stronger class definitions and roles for quite some time, and justly so. Smugglers often complain that there is little to smuggle and they've got a point. Similarly other professions could use a lot of work. As a swordsman I'm still waiting for my own class definition.
A lot of the things that come up, however, necessarily have an impact on other players. Contraband scans or for a more recent item (albeit one that has been in the game for quite some time), opening maglocks, cut into the game that other non-smugglers play. As a non-smuggler, when solo'ing caves, I find that I cannot open most of the containers. As a non-smuggler and a rebel or neutral I find that I have no defense against scans when I am solo'ing or in a group that does not contain a smuggler.
You shouldn't EVER be able to open any locked containers. Why? Because this is the ONLY way a novice smuggler has in advancing in slicing. Lemme say that again because it bears repeating. Opening locked containers is the ONLY WAY A NOVICE SMUGGLER HAS OF ADVANCING. And locked containers are rare. We are presented with a rare opprotunity to actually INCREASE our business and make advancing out of the hell that is novice-slicing 2 easier. Giving that ability away would severely screw novices. I'm sorry you don't like it, but how is it different from having a locked looted container sliced by a novice?
Here's the thing, I think smugglers definitely deserve better content and I'm quite willing to depend on smugglers . . . but in a way that doesn't take away my time or cut into my own role in the game. I want to spend my time being a swordsman and interacting with swordsman content and not creating content for smugglers. I already depend on a lot of people: chefs, BE's, tailors, armorsmiths, weaponsmiths, docs, smugglers, etc. The thing is, I can get what I need from these people by bartering my profits as a swordsman. I can pay for most of what I need from these people in short order and then move on. I need only interact with a weaponsmith every few weeks or so if I want to. I am financially dependent but invest very little time into this interaction.
We are aware of this concern, and believe me, we share it. But for our profession to have any meaning, illegal things need to be ILLEGAL. No, you shouldn't have to find a smuggler every time you leave planet. But you shouldn't view illegal drugs and weapons as your dev-given right either. They should be advantages that come with heavy cost to you and me both. And the reward of it should equal the risk. That is the system we are trying to come up with. We are trying to find a fun, interactive and dynamic smuggling system. The bottom line of this system is that somehow-some way carrying around illegal goods is going to have to be a risky propostion. How risky for whom and for how much risk and for how much reward is to be determined. But you can't expect us just to settle for NPC only delivery missions and call it smuggling. We won't stand for that. You're going to have to depend on us for illegal goods OR do without illegal goods. Many of us (not all or even a majority by any means) are willing to take pay cuts as long as it's smuggling and as long as it's cool. So if the system makes many of you civilians cringe and do without spice or slicing that's fine by many of us. We'd rather lose money than lose meaning.
Examples:
Contraband. If I have to find a smuggler simply to move around with the items I have then that is too much of a time investment. However if a smuggler can provide illicit goods that I need I will gladly pay for them. Instead of seeking systems that actively hamper a player at all points I suggest systems that allow smugglers to provide perks to other professions but use the Smuggler's time. You spend your time being a smuggler and I'll spend mine being a swordsman, and after all of that I will gladly fork over some of my profits for some of your ill-gotten gains.
Maglocks. There seems to be contention against the idea that smugglers could offer maglock breaking kits. To me it seems clear that I need such a thing. I often solo caves without a smuggler and a lot of loot is simply off-limits for no particularly good reason. Smugglers don't gain anything by me not being able to loot, stuff just sits there. However I do understand that smugglers want to be part of this process and want to have a role here. My suggestion is either that smugglers have a tangible benefit to opening these contgainers (i.e. do not use resources, have a higher chance of success, etc.) OR maglocks become like higher level locked containers, i.e. lootable in locked form. If we had high level locked containers with good loot, and a secure trade ability, I could store up these maglocks and then obtain the services of a smuggler at my leisure. Another suggestion is that Smugglers could provide a grouping bonus to loot (if this is possible). Perhaps for every smuggler in a group there the chance of receiving a loot item is multiplied by 110% (or some other number). This gives a tangible reason to group with a smuggler without denying anything in particular to those that do not.
AGain, smugglers ALREADY have a role here. We open locked containers. Why should maglocks be any different? Up until now, NO ONE could open them, or they were open and empty. Why should it bother you that you ahve to take them to a smuggler like any locked container. And again, please remember that SLICING LOCKED CONTAINERS IS THE NOVICE'S ONLY MEANS OF ADVANCEMENT.
all I'm saying is that I see a need to dovetail smuggler content with the way in which other players play. I see a significant number of smuggler concepts that are going to dig into the way I play and this concerns me. Other players will, I think, be much more receptive to ideas that allow smugglers to help them but do not require significant hassles, loss of gameplay options or loss of time that should be spent on their own profession's content/role.
And I'm really just offering a suggestion, not a flame nor a troll. Take it as you will.
StGabriel wrote:
Is that about the gist of it?
No, the idea, very simply, is that content for one profession should not come at an expense to "fun" for other professions.
Telling me that I can "choose" to use a non-optimal gun in order to ignore a boring and un-"fun" hassle is just trying to recast the argument into another direction that I don't think is very helpful.
Smuggler content can easily exist in a way that gives Smugglers unique abilities, a role in the game, and yet does not provide empty space and hassle time for other professions. Simple as that.
StGabe.
- Most PvP and what minimal high end content there is can only be accessed through Doctor Buffs. Players are dependant on Docs to be buffed.
- Pure crafters have to rely on combatants to get looted enhancements.
So apply your argument here. Doctors should have their ability to buff removed and given to all players because it's a "timesink" to find a doctor to buff you so you can go do the high end content.
Smugglers who slice for a living are already beset by the Weaponsmith and Armorsmith who slices their own wares. Furthermore, Slicing is the only viable skill left in the smuggler profession. to give the ability to slice Magseal Containers to anyone because they are basically impatient is a slippery slope. What about the "timesink" to get your armor and weapons sliced? why not change slicing from being a "smuggler" ability to a "smuggler CRAFTED" ability. you buy the kit from us and do it yourself... that's basically what you want to see happen with the magseal containers.
The truth of the matter is a True Smuggler class (IE a class that smuggles things) cannot truely exist without a system of contraband and tariffs and meaningful consequences for all players. anything less than that would be what everyone can do now: Delivery missions. anything other than real meaningful smuggling is not Smuggler Content. To be precise, even the skills we have now in our tree is not smuggler content.
I understand that you argue from the standpoint of many people in the game. The attitude is that this game is meant to be a very Solo player experience whose only contacts with others is through the sterilized confines of vendors. Grouping is a hassle and a timesink. having to find a doc to buff or a slicer to slice is a hassle and a timesink. players should not have to rely on other players to tackle high end content in this game.
That is the gist of your argument, no matter how you want to spin it. And my answer to that argument is, if you want a single player experience, then get a single player game.
so St.Gabe's complaint is what? Being hassled? He has not said anything about the fact he was wrong in assuming smugglers good open Mag-sealed containers. He has also not addressed the fact that his real problem is that there are "illegal"perks in the game which he wants to use without any consequences. So again, where are the hassles?
You don't get any benefit from having a smuggler to open containers that are on a timer, and how long do those scans last? Do they "hassle" you for 10 minutes or so? Because I know the majority of the player base considers waiting 9 min 59 secs for shuttles a major inconveniance and annoyance.
St.Gabe said:
A lot of the things that come up, however, necessarily have an impact on other players. Contraband scans or for a more recent item (albeit one that has been in the game for quite some time), opening maglocks, cut into the game that other non-smugglers play. As a non-smuggler, when solo'ing caves, I find that I cannot open most of the containers. As a non-smuggler and a rebel or neutral I find that I have no defense against scans when I am solo'ing or in a group that does not contain a smuggler.
And I'll be frank, I don't find this very "fun". Why should I be penalized just for not having a regular smuggler groupy? Why should I not be able to access a significant portion of loot when I solo?
This was his original statement. As you can see it holds no water.
After reading this thread as led me to mke my 2nd smuggler post..
we don't need to hassle people for content, but poeple DO get hassled and thats life
BH's get to take player jedi missions, the jedi get HASSLED by the BH's, and MOST , not all, enjoy it, hell, us smugglers were LOOKING to get hassled by BH's. we have been kicking around the idea of us getting on the terms for what ever illegial thing we did ( slice a term, or sell spice) there are ways around poeple gettin hassled, but IT does happen, and WILL happen, thats justpart of the game, you can't take ALL the hassles out fo a gaem, or it would get TOO easy. thats why the jedi bounty were added so the gaem wasn't TOO easy for jedi. so us being needed to open a container, or slice a weapon MAY be a hassle. Butyou never hear "hey lets goblow up fraction base!" ---" NAH we'd need a smuggler(and other profs) to do that, its too much of a HASSLE"
hassles are here, they will be here, always, or the game would get borring w/o the hassles
"Why should I be penalized just for not having a regular smuggler groupy? Why should I not be able to access a significant portion of loot when I solo?"
You are not being penalised, it is your choice to NOT be a Smuggler.
If you wish to access containers, avoid scans, etc, then expend skill points on Smuggler.
Why can't Iself buff with Doctor's kits? Am I being penalised and being made less competitive because of it?
No, I could always drop Smuggler to take Doctor.
But that would be my choice, as is a Swordsman not being able to open locked containers.
/agree 100%
electricnomad wrote:
StGabriel wrote:
I think smugglers definitely deserve better content and I'm quite willing to depend on smugglers . . . but in a way that doesn't take away my time or cut into my own role in the game.
I read your entire post, and it seems to me that you are saying this:
I want to enjoy the benefits of being a Smuggler without investing any skillpoints in Smuggler.
As has been said before, I do not believe that everything in this game is meant to be soloed. So what if you can't evade contraband scans? You can stop carrying contraband. So what if you can't open magseals? Was there nothing else to do in a particular dungeon?
Smugglers aren't exactly the toughest people in the galaxy. If anything, SMUGGLERS depend on a group to enable them to get them into dunegons where they can access magseals. It's a two-way street, really - regular groups can kill their way to a magseal without being able to open it, and solo Smugglers could open magseals if they only had the combat power to get close to one. This game should have a much greater emphasis on GROUPS, but at the current rate, most things can be soloed by the right combination of skills, and people have become accustomed to being able to do everything on their own. I hear it called grief when they can't solo anything, or when they depend on other professions.
So to say that I disagree with the tone and with your conclusions is an understatement. The attitude embodied in your post is precisely what I think is ruining this game and preventing it from recapturing the ragged dangerous glory of Beta SWG. People have been coddled so long that this has turned into Sims in Space rather than Star Wars.
I hope that, as you read over my stuff you bear in mind that I am only rendering a player opinion. If you have the perception that this opinion will have very much effect on the design process then I think you're wrong (from what I've seen as a correspondent). The only way it can do this is if some in the community agree with me (and personal attacks aside, my PM's tend to indicate that several do indeed agree).
Anyway, here is an example (a frivolous but appropriate one) that I think best illustrates my points:
---
Swordsman and fencers have little profession specific content. As seen in George Lucas films (Indiana Jones), swords can be used to clear out jungle and forest matter that might get in the way of movement. So as to provide new content and a niche for swordsman and fencers we ask that restrictive terrain be added to the game. It is obvious that such terrain would indeed exist and we think that this will add more realism to the game.
---
The system:
Players who have armor (wearing or in the inventory) will have a chance on certain planets to get stuck in jungle or forest terrain. They will be dismounted and have to stand in one spot for 10 minutes while they free themselves and will not be able to use specials. There will also be a chance that predators will come by and attack them while they are sitting there.
A swordsman or fencer may, at any time, free these people through the use of a Rykk Blade or Cleaver.
Furthermore, the entrances to several new dungeons will be blocked by jungle and forest matter preventing entry unless you are grouped with a Swordsman or Fencer.
---
Argument for the system:
This will provide new content for swordsmen and fencers making them desired for groups and giving them a role in the game. If players do not wish to risk this problem the answer is simple: they can CHOOSE not to use armor or carry it in their inventory or they can have a Swordsman or Fencer with them at all times. Obviously players cannot expect to have access to all content with any skill set, thus the change in new dungeons is completely justified.
---
The story is stupid, but who cares. Swordsman and Fencers DO need a role in the game just as much as Smugglers. This example uses all of the arguments posted against my statement and yet this system, I think, is obviously just obnoxious to other players. If Swordsmen were to suggest such a change I would expect and welcome commentary from players of all professions saying that is simply too obnoxious for their own playstyle. Many systems that players may desire for their professions necessarily impact other professions.
This example is very silly and somewhat satirical but I could easily have come up with a more serious version that would have entailed the same effects. Now imagine 15 professions asking for such changes. I hope you see the point. Changes that add content to one profession at the expense of existing options for other professions will not be "fun" for other professions. Instead of working on such prohibitory systems it will be better to provide new ways in which professions can complement each other. This still allows other professions to have unique abilities, to be desired in groups, etc., but does not require that other professions lose time and "fun" in order to create new content.
End of story, simple enough.
StGabe.
Well, imho the first post takes the wrong direction.
Smuggling by essence is meant to circumvent annoying regulations. If there aren't any annoying regulations, there can't be smuggling.
That you don't want ot be annoyed by regulations is understandable. But what you must understand, is that the StarWars settings has some prerequisites, one of them being, some regulations so annoying some people took arms and became rebels.
Annoying regulations are part of starwars, and the art of avoiding them is part fo starwars too.