Smuggler Archive

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SmugglinZane wrote:

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Aendracon wrote:

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NickHeel wrote:

You late 2004 people that came with JTL or even RotW this year and think you've been waiting a long time...from Day1(2) Smuggler...You need to read through "The History" again. You want to tell me to move on? It's grizzled old dogs like me and Fish and Ternque and others that kept this profession from going dead like some others.

[...]

I hate the new Smuggler forum. You've got no fight, no willpower, no motivation to do anything. This forum is dead any more. I guess you all are too busy in game NOT Smuggling.

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I see. So what exactly is it that entitles you to bash us newer Smugglers? Sure, we didn`t keep the profession from going dead like you and others (feeling modest today, aren´t we?). So we owe you thanks for the Smuggler revamp we got? Oh wait... we still can´t Smuggle. So I guess that´s thanks for nothing!

[...]

So while I share your frustration - even though I haven´t waited for Smuggling as long as you have - I have to say that your rant directed at usnewer Smugglers is hardly helpful.

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OK, so I'm pretty sure you're getting the theme of my post at this point. Read the history thread. It's the one thing that can truly explain to newer Smugglers where the old grumpy ones are coming from. If you don't read it, give it 6 months and I bet you'll understand where he's coming from from first hand experience because we've seen NOTHING to show that the treatment of this profession has changed or will change any time soon.

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I don't really think it matters where the 'old grumppy ones' are coming from. It doesn't making flipping out on other (newer) smugglers any less cool. Does that do anything to help push the concepts/ideas forward? All that does is make it harder for us to come up with ideas and agree on things we want. Honestly, I haven't been playing the game that long, but I for one don't think that ANYBODY should get ANYTHING fixed before the smugglers do. I came in, with high hopes, and was somewhat dissapointed. The skills are cool, but they could be better (not to mention where is the YT-2400, YV-666, Action IV/V transports? etc etc).

Smugglers need an extremelyWIDE skillset to be good at what they do... (Think about Han very basically... --> Pilot, weapons 'expert', skilled in unarmed combat, mechanic skills, some engineering/modification/slicing skills, quick witted, etc etc, the list goes on. Not to mention he has natural leadership skills) These things, are for the most part missing from the skill tree IMO. Dirty fighting is nice, but does low blow/last ditch apply in unarmed/melee comabt? (I dont know, I haven't tried nor have I played long enough to really konw, as I don't have LD yet and only recently got LB). It should. Smugglers fight dirty whether they are holding a DL-44, a E-11 or nothing at all.

The most glaring issues is we don't smuggle anything (This is a duh, it has been said OVER and OVER). I get scanned all the time, but you simply store your bike, call it, jump on and ride away and BOOM you evaded. They don't chase you or anything. There are no border patrols, no blockades, no interdictors. It is nice to see that there is idea to push the missions forward, and with that they would have to implement all of the things listed above. Blockades, and then ways to get through them (what about smugglers being able to further modify their ships/compents than a shipwright can reverse engineer them?) It makes no difference that we have a 'viable' role in combat, we don't do what we are supposed to do. If I wanted to be in combat I would be spending my skill points on pistoleer, carbiner, rifleman, combat medic, etc etc..

I got the game, expecting to fill a 'Han Solo' role, as we ALL did. We were ALL let down. It doesn't mean that the newer players (myself included) are any less jipped or any less important to the game. We all need to stop 'flamming' eachother becuase all it does is stop any discussion about what we really want, and how it will work, and ends up with people getting b&. So seriously, if you disagree just say 'I disagree' then state your opinion. No flames, just hash out the facts and the ideas. Stop acting like we are 12yrs old (no offense to the younger people, but some (not all)of you are really immature).

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SmugglinZane wrote:

That's why he said read the history thread. Many of the newer people are just regurgitating things said in the past. Everything being discussed has been discussed before. Everything happening now has happened before. If you don't believe him or me, then read the history thread. You'll see what we're railing against. You'll see he's not bashing you, he's bashing the mindset. He's trying to show you what you're really pinning your hopes on. He's trying to be real.

You say you want alternatives proposed, well they have been. Read the history thread. You say you share his frustration, but you really don't understand where he's coming from, but you would if you read the history thread.

OK, so I'm pretty sure you're getting the theme of my post at this point. Read the history thread. It's the one thing that can truly explain to newer Smugglers where the old grumpy ones are coming from. If you don't read it, give it 6 months and I bet you'll understand where he's coming from from first hand experience because we've seen NOTHING to show that the treatment of this profession has changed or will change any time soon.

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CrashTECH wrote:

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SmugglinZane wrote:

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Aendracon wrote:

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NickHeel wrote:

You late 2004 people that came with JTL or even RotW this year and think you've been waiting a long time...from Day1(2) Smuggler...You need to read through "The History" again. You want to tell me to move on? It's grizzled old dogs like me and Fish and Ternque and others that kept this profession from going dead like some others.

[...]

I hate the new Smuggler forum. You've got no fight, no willpower, no motivation to do anything. This forum is dead any more. I guess you all are too busy in game NOT Smuggling.

---

I see. So what exactly is it that entitles you to bash us newer Smugglers? Sure, we didn`t keep the profession from going dead like you and others (feeling modest today, aren´t we?). So we owe you thanks for the Smuggler revamp we got? Oh wait... we still can´t Smuggle. So I guess that´s thanks for nothing!

[...]

So while I share your frustration - even though I haven´t waited for Smuggling as long as you have - I have to say that your rant directed at usnewer Smugglers is hardly helpful.

---

OK, so I'm pretty sure you're getting the theme of my post at this point. Read the history thread. It's the one thing that can truly explain to newer Smugglers where the old grumpy ones are coming from. If you don't read it, give it 6 months and I bet you'll understand where he's coming from from first hand experience because we've seen NOTHING to show that the treatment of this profession has changed or will change any time soon.

---

I don't really think it matters where the 'old grumppy ones' are coming from. It doesn't making flipping out on other (newer) smugglers any less cool. Does that do anything to help push the concepts/ideas forward? All that does is make it harder for us to come up with ideas and agree on things we want. Honestly, I haven't been playing the game that long, but I for one don't think that ANYBODY should get ANYTHING fixed before the smugglers do. I came in, with high hopes, and was somewhat dissapointed. The skills are cool, but they could be better (not to mention where is the YT-2400, YV-666, Action IV/V transports? etc etc).

Smugglers need an extremelyWIDE skillset to be good at what they do... (Think about Han very basically... --> Pilot, weapons 'expert', skilled in unarmed combat, mechanic skills, some engineering/modification/slicing skills, quick witted, etc etc, the list goes on. Not to mention he has natural leadership skills) These things, are for the most part missing from the skill tree IMO. Dirty fighting is nice, but does low blow/last ditch apply in unarmed/melee comabt? (I dont know, I haven't tried nor have I played long enough to really konw, as I don't have LD yet and only recently got LB). It should. Smugglers fight dirty whether they are holding a DL-44, a E-11 or nothing at all.

The most glaring issues is we don't smuggle anything (This is a duh, it has been said OVER and OVER). I get scanned all the time, but you simply store your bike, call it, jump on and ride away and BOOM you evaded. They don't chase you or anything. There are no border patrols, no blockades, no interdictors. It is nice to see that there is idea to push the missions forward, and with that they would have to implement all of the things listed above. Blockades, and then ways to get through them (what about smugglers being able to further modify their ships/compents than a shipwright can reverse engineer them?) It makes no difference that we have a 'viable' role in combat, we don't do what we are supposed to do. If I wanted to be in combat I would be spending my skill points on pistoleer, carbiner, rifleman, combat medic, etc etc..

I got the game, expecting to fill a 'Han Solo' role, as we ALL did. We were ALL let down. It doesn't mean that the newer players (myself included) are any less jipped or any less important to the game. We all need to stop 'flamming' eachother becuase all it does is stop any discussion about what we really want, and how it will work, and ends up with people getting b&. So seriously, if you disagree just say 'I disagree' then state your opinion. No flames, just hash out the facts and the ideas. Stop acting like we are 12yrs old (no offense to the younger people, but some (not all)of you are really immature).

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Thank you crash i was going to write something like that if we all didn't start getting along. We all need to stick together. Yes, we need to teach the "younger" (ie people that started after the CU) how we have been treated in the past, but we need to teach nicely and not just yell at people.

I also bought this game thinkingfinallya game whereI can go against the law.Obviously, as we have said in every other thread, this isn't the case.I say we just keep talking about ideas we have and maybe some day when the planets aline perfectly and it's a full moon and a bunch of possible but unlikely things happen they will make an awsome revamp for us but all we can do is wait so lets get together andbash the people who deserve it(not other smugglers)

by the way, if anyone can follow my logic i applaud you

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Hetnikik wrote:

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CrashTECH wrote:

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SmugglinZane wrote:

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Aendracon wrote:

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NickHeel wrote:

You late 2004 people that came with JTL or even RotW this year and think you've been waiting a long time...from Day1(2) Smuggler...You need to read through "The History" again. You want to tell me to move on? It's grizzled old dogs like me and Fish and Ternque and others that kept this profession from going dead like some others.

[...]

I hate the new Smuggler forum. You've got no fight, no willpower, no motivation to do anything. This forum is dead any more. I guess you all are too busy in game NOT Smuggling.

---

I see. So what exactly is it that entitles you to bash us newer Smugglers? Sure, we didn`t keep the profession from going dead like you and others (feeling modest today, aren´t we?). So we owe you thanks for the Smuggler revamp we got? Oh wait... we still can´t Smuggle. So I guess that´s thanks for nothing!

[...]

So while I share your frustration - even though I haven´t waited for Smuggling as long as you have - I have to say that your rant directed at usnewer Smugglers is hardly helpful.

---

OK, so I'm pretty sure you're getting the theme of my post at this point. Read the history thread. It's the one thing that can truly explain to newer Smugglers where the old grumpy ones are coming from. If you don't read it, give it 6 months and I bet you'll understand where he's coming from from first hand experience because we've seen NOTHING to show that the treatment of this profession has changed or will change any time soon.

---

I don't really think it matters where the 'old grumppy ones' are coming from. It doesn't making flipping out on other (newer) smugglers any less cool. Does that do anything to help push the concepts/ideas forward? All that does is make it harder for us to come up with ideas and agree on things we want. Honestly, I haven't been playing the game that long, but I for one don't think that ANYBODY should get ANYTHING fixed before the smugglers do. I came in, with high hopes, and was somewhat dissapointed. The skills are cool, but they could be better (not to mention where is the YT-2400, YV-666, Action IV/V transports? etc etc).

Smugglers need an extremelyWIDE skillset to be good at what they do... (Think about Han very basically... --> Pilot, weapons 'expert', skilled in unarmed combat, mechanic skills, some engineering/modification/slicing skills, quick witted, etc etc, the list goes on. Not to mention he has natural leadership skills) These things, are for the most part missing from the skill tree IMO. Dirty fighting is nice, but does low blow/last ditch apply in unarmed/melee comabt? (I dont know, I haven't tried nor have I played long enough to really konw, as I don't have LD yet and only recently got LB). It should. Smugglers fight dirty whether they are holding a DL-44, a E-11 or nothing at all.

The most glaring issues is we don't smuggle anything (This is a duh, it has been said OVER and OVER). I get scanned all the time, but you simply store your bike, call it, jump on and ride away and BOOM you evaded. They don't chase you or anything. There are no border patrols, no blockades, no interdictors. It is nice to see that there is idea to push the missions forward, and with that they would have to implement all of the things listed above. Blockades, and then ways to get through them (what about smugglers being able to further modify their ships/compents than a shipwright can reverse engineer them?) It makes no difference that we have a 'viable' role in combat, we don't do what we are supposed to do. If I wanted to be in combat I would be spending my skill points on pistoleer, carbiner, rifleman, combat medic, etc etc..

I got the game, expecting to fill a 'Han Solo' role, as we ALL did. We were ALL let down. It doesn't mean that the newer players (myself included) are any less jipped or any less important to the game. We all need to stop 'flamming' eachother becuase all it does is stop any discussion about what we really want, and how it will work, and ends up with people getting b&. So seriously, if you disagree just say 'I disagree' then state your opinion. No flames, just hash out the facts and the ideas. Stop acting like we are 12yrs old (no offense to the younger people, but some (not all)of you are really immature).

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Thank you crash i was going to write something like that if we all didn't start getting along. We all need to stick together. Yes, we need to teach the "younger" (ie people that started after the CU) how we have been treated in the past, but we need to teach nicely and not just yell at people.

I also bought this game thinkingfinallya game whereI can go against the law.Obviously, as we have said in every other thread, this isn't the case.I say we just keep talking about ideas we have and maybe some day when the planets aline perfectly and it's a full moon and a bunch of possible but unlikely things happen they will make an awsome revamp for us but all we can do is wait so lets get together andbash the people who deserve it(not other smugglers)

by the way, if anyone can follow my logic i applaud you

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OK, first let me say that I agree. In the above reply I was going to say more about the need to be united, but I cut it short instead.

Secondly, I've know Nickheel and the others around here for awhile. I know Nick get's angry and he gets even angrier when others don't get angry. It's extremely frustrating to all of us who have been dragged through the mud since launch are told by newcomers that we shouldn't be angry and that things are really going to happen this time. Like I said before, what you have said has been said before. Even though it may not seem like it, we really are trying to get people to rally behind one idea, it's just that frustration has cause some to do it in a way that's harsh.

The times that this community has rallied behind something, the devs were forced to take a step back. Hell, we practicly created a PR nightmare for them all on our own. Treatment of this profession made a gaming magazine's top 10 worst moments in MMOs.

We know you guys won't feel as jaded as we do, well not until you get kicked in the nuts. I don't expect you to feel the same way. What I do ask is that you look at things, look at how long some of these people have been fighting for this profession, and maybe realise that they know what they're talking about and get behind it a little. (For example, I don't always agree with Wes, but I stand behind him because I know the position he's in.) Saying that he's wrong (not that the people in this post have said this) does nothing considering he and a lot of others have documented proof that things have carried on like this before. Hell, they even called us liars before, so you can imagine how someone posting here in opposition would make them feel.

The last thing I'll say about all this has to do with the overall tone on this forum lately. Any bash of a new Smuggler may be just a result of the asinine posting around here by some people. People who have no interest in Smuggler fulfilling it's namesake. When things become polarised, like they have been, it's easy to lash out at someone thinking they're in the opposite camp. I am by no means excusing it, I'm just saying you could probably chock it up to a misunderstanding.

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SmugglinZane wrote:
They see smuggling as content addition. We see it as a bug. If we cannot smuggle then we are not Smugglers, therefor the profession is broken and needs to be fixed. The details happen to be the easy part. It's rallying against SOE/LA to get them to see things from their customers' perspective so that we can solve the problem.

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WesBelden wrote:
I've been told to bump our list of questions again in the correspondent forum around a certain date, so hopefully that means we'll be getting some answers and, shock horror, maybe even some dialogue. It could, as ever, come to naught, but hopefully it won't.

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I still say they need to do an IRC chat with the community... anything that would actually be a disussion rather than post tag. Too much can be lost in the middle of all that. I suppose a list of questions will work though, as long as they answer the questions.

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SmugglinZane wrote:
OK, do me a favor then if you don't mind. About a week before you're supposed to bump that in the C-Forum, can you post it here so we can go over them again a little? Maybe even rate which ones are most important to the people here.

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WesBelden wrote:

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SmugglinZane wrote:
OK, do me a favor then if you don't mind. About a week before you're supposed to bump that in the C-Forum, can you post it here so we can go over them again a little? Maybe even rate which ones are most important to the people here.

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Sounds like a good idea . At a *random amount of time* before I bump, I shall re-post the questions in here for prioritising .

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Riiiight... Random.

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SmugglinZane wrote:

OK, first let me say that I agree. In the above reply I was going to say more about the need to be united, but I cut it short instead.

[...]

I am by no means excusing it, I'm just saying you could probably chock it up to a misunderstanding.

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I would post how you, as a single player, could make a difference and really get the word out. But apparently voicing a negative opinion here and how to remedy that is a bannable offense.

Well, I did post it. But it was deleted. As all my posts before today.

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CrashTECH wrote:

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SmugglinZane wrote:

OK, first let me say that I agree. In the above reply I was going to say more about the need to be united, but I cut it short instead.

[...]

I am by no means excusing it, I'm just saying you could probably chock it up to a misunderstanding.

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Well, at least we agree that the flaming is pointless... I understand, I would be just as irritated [insert other adjectives here] as anybody else, but that doesn't mean bashing somebody else becuase they don't automatically feel the same (which is also different than understanding). The simiple solution is just to tell the new person to check the history, and they will see how it is gone. Another solution (and this probably will not happen, becuase people are inherently naive until educated) is that the new smugglers should keep a tight lip till they have been around a while. I have only been playing maybe a little over a month myself. The trick is to work around/through the misunderstandings.

I agree.

Wes does the best he can, but what we need is to get somebody to collect everybodies ideas combine/condense them, and then hand them over to Wes to either repost for further feedback (making a LONG list is a bad idea, but maybe several threads each dedicated to a single idea). Then rinse and repeate. I am sure we are not getting anything before the next expansion, but we should take that into consideration and use the time to make a larger, more defined list of 'wants'.

It's been done. Many times. Pretty much by each correspondent we've had. Wes has the list going.

There are virtually no new ideas that arise simply because things have been discussed ad nauseum. The devs have everything they need in the numerous IC/ID threads that we've had, the discussions with GM, and the many, many in depth posts made by community members. What we really need is for them to tell us exactly how far and where they're looking to go. From there you'll see this community help flesh out the system in a flash. (I don't think this would ever happen because it would be the nail in the coffin for a lot of people. As long as they can continue to string people along by saying it's coming without saying what the "it" is, they keep their subscription.)

The only way anything is going to happen is to cut the crap and work together. (which is a difficult thing to do) The only suggestion I can make is try to get the vets to be less bitter (at least when posting about ideas for changes/fixes) and have the newer smugs read up a little bit, and see how things have gone.

Like I said the work has been done by many before. The only thing we need to work together on is making smuggling a priority. The only way to do that is to rally against the devs. Something I pointed out a few months ago is the inherent differences between the way we see things. They see smuggling as content addition. We see it as a bug. If we cannot smuggle then we are not Smugglers, therefor the profession is broken and needs to be fixed. The details happen to be the easy part. It's rallying against SOE/LA to get them to see things from their customers' perspective so that we can solve the problem.

Everything resists change... the established norm is the Jedi/BH favoritism, and a movement for that change will be resisted (not intentionally, but that is just how things naturally flow) The jedi/BH/Smugs are (IMO) THE core of the SW universe. Wars come and go (Republic/Seperatists, Alliance/Empire, New Republic/Remnant etc) but through all that you still have Jedis, BHs, and Smugglers. We need to keep pushing to get that change (did the Rebel Alliance give up when it got its tail kicked all over the galaxy for years? Nope, the didnt. And they ended up winning didn't they ? hehe)

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