CUEmu - Thread Posts

Jur

Thu May 26, 2005 5:19 am

Howdy!

Well as i see, its not necessarily the fact that when a bh takes a bounty he is going to come kill you is what is thrilling about Smuggler bounties. What is thrilling is to even the playing field, make the Bh and the smuggler use both of their not so well titled skill boxes(underworld and Investigation). If there were any smuggler missions, and smugglers had the ability to take high risk pvp missions, they would show up on the terminals with a bounty(a small one depending on the mission). So for example, if i were to do high risk missions(such as thsoe with a story to two-time jabba or something) my name would appear on the terms, with lets say a 5,000 Cr bounty. The more I do these missions, the more the bounty increases such as gaining more value for my self. Now for what i mentioned earlier about the skill boxes, if and when the BH takes the missions he will not be able to use droids at all, he must actually do investigation. For example if he were chasing a good smuggler, worthwhile to be on the terms, then the smuggler must know how to avoid droids. So this will force the BH and the smuggler to actually find and run not just who has the faster speeder. So, after the mission is taken the BH waits till the smuggler does a mission, and then he will get an email messege saying that somone has done something. The bh will go tothat place, and talk to some NPCs or PCs who may have seen the smuggler, kind of like a detective. From there the bounty hunter would study his prey like a real BH would do, obviously the SMuggler would develop a pattern and the BH has to find it, using witnesses and his OWN mind. The Bh would have to get into the mind of the smuggler, and create a system of contacts such as players who happen to see the smuggler coming by. This would create much more thought and dynamics to the search. As for the smuggler, the smuggler would use his underworld skills to talk to NPCs to get into secret and underground/hidden passages to avoid the bh. For example, a route through city buildings, he would have to talk to an NPC, and be given options to speak to the npc and if the SMuggler responds correctly, he would be able to pas. But this will not allow the smuggler to just go through these passages and avoid BHS. the BH using his brains would find the route of the passage, through his own investigation(beating up thugs or whatever) and wait, thus making the smuggler to redo the path to avoid the bh. Some woudl say that the mission would be too long, but remeber the Bounty would increase per mission.

Now for some more dynamics with this suggestion, be it so that more than one Bounty Hunter could hunt for the smuggler, not a gank squad but each doign it for his own bounty. What i mean is, that the BHs would compete for it and the first to get the smuggler takes the glory. Because if the smuggler were high profile enough it would attract more BHs, and the crime lord would send more and more BHs to stop the smuggler(being realistic). SO as the Bhs compete, for the smuggler and lets say 3-4 are able to pinpoint the smuggler's route because they at this point learned the smuggler's mind. So those 3-4 bhs now race to the smuggler to kill him first, and one does get to the smuggler first and kills the smuggler, the BH would then be given an item like an arm or a heart for something to identify that the smuggler did die. Now those other Bhs that were near the one who got the smuggler, now have the choice of killing that BH for that item before he returns it to the terminal, adding rivalries not only with smugglers but with other BHs aas well, because in the world of crime noone is your friend, except money.

So Essentially, what i am saying here is to add elements to the game which would have good roleplaying factors(something lackign in MMORPGS), it would be more fun for the smuggler to run through secret places and dodge teh BH, and more Fun for the BH to study and learn his prey. It would make Bounty-Hunting more exhiliarting than just pressing buttons on a droid. It would also create rivalries between The smuggler and the BH, such as Bobba and Han. It would also create more dynamics as it would be a massive free for all, BH vs BH vs Smuggler, making long lasting hunts. The rewards for the BH would of course be the money, and perhaps even a badge depending on the high profile of the Smuggler something like ...Has slain a great smuggler. For the smuggler the reward should not be very great at all, perhaps a few extra crates here and there, but as a smuggler(roleplayeD) you take on the fact that you are GOING to be hunted, you cant expect to not be hunted.

Dont flame or anything, this is just how i would like to see a bh smuggler bounty. I personally think it would create more rivalries and roleplaying. Some might pinpoitn exploits, bugs, ways the cheat, grief and other things but here is the thing, you live it then you learn, and you fix it. The Devs may or may not fix ways to stop that, but a player should be able to. Thanks all.

Message Edited by Jur on 05-26-2005 05:20 AM

HOTDOG

Thu May 26, 2005 6:22 am

#67

I am not swayed by your arguments Mythor.

PvP IS more difficult than PvE.

I realize that NPC can be made to be omnipotent but where is the fun in that, really? Can you say pre-CU DWB?

That is not the goal. The goal is to be challenging. The problem with A.I. is it is only challenging until you figure out how it works.

Example:

I went toe to toe with a Level 161 Dark Trooper and 2 of his Level 30 friends. Another Level 161 Dark Trooper and Level 30 sidekick watched from afar (they were out of aggro range).

During my battle I figured out that if I KD'd the troopers and put on a Dizzy they had a hard time getting up or didn't get up at all.

I laid all three of them down and used my LBC to drain their health simutaneously (the Dark Trooper took a while cause he had a S-load of Health).

Once I finished- I walked over to the other 2 troopers and repeated the process without fear and without a challenge.

And this is the thing those who want PvP encounters want to avoid. Sure. It felt great to figure it out. But aweek from then it becomesredundant and boring.

Now, I personally think that they should vary the number and level of NPC BHs that come after us BUT I know, eventually it will be figured out howto deal with whatever they send after us- because it IS a program.

The PC BH would be TOTALLY different. Granted, I COULD have a Greedo type of PC BH come after me and just manhandle him but I could also have a Boba Fett, "never-say-its-over-till-your-dead", camp-your-house, leave-the-cloning-booth-get-a-buff-and-try-again, ask-for-a-slice-and-assassinate type of player. THAT is the RISK and those who take that risk should be REWARDED.

The base of your argument is "A.I. can be as challenging as a human being" and you are wrong because A.I.cannot learn from it's mistakes.

Youwill have to go a LOOOONG way to prove tome that A.I.is as challenging as a Human.

Remember, you're not trying to prove that A.I. can be made stronger- it can. You're trying to prove thatA.I.can be made SMARTER, and thus more challenging. Levels and Hitpoints can be defeated.

TEVIN STARGUNNER | WASODO T'GADIE

Rogue | Desperado | Demolitionist Short | Dark | Handsome

Raanan

Thu May 26, 2005 6:31 am

#68

Mythor, I'm really curious what your gaming background is. I'm also curious why pvp is so vile to you.

Mythor wrote:

Taln2 wrote:

And with regards to concussion shot, I sincerely hope you realize it is a broken skill that is not working as intended.

I sincerely hope you don't sincerely believe that!

Concussion Shot and Stopping Shot are both WORKING AS INTENDED. They are most assuredly NOT BROKEN. Thunderheart has even said so and provided a "Tuesday Tip" saying to use Stopping Shot - you can see for yourself here.
Note that he explicitly says, "Once this combat message has been seen, it's time to let loose and do as much damage as possible for the duration of the rooting ability."

Want to try again?

Stopping Shot may be working as intended but if you read the description of Concussion Shot, you'llfind it says it breaks on damage which (as we all know) is not the case so I'm sure you can see where the confusion comes from. It wouldn't be the first time we had one dev tell us something and have another dev tell us something which contradicts what the first dev said. Because of that, I hope you see the error in lumping CS with SS simply because they're both roots.

Now, whether that is going to continue to be the case going forward is open to debate. I personally have no doubt it's heading for a nerf, because it can be used against other players. Particularly because it can be used against Jedi.

You, are a very cynical person I've come to believe. I hope you don't take offense to this but it's pretty irritating. It's like one of those street preachers standing on the corner of 5th and Main (random street names) telling the pedestrians they're all going to hell. Makes you want to do something violent to them like knock them on their ass or something humiliating like pantsing them and giving them an atomic wedgie... Don't you think doomsaying is getting a little old by now?

Taln2 wrote:

While you're actively flaming opinions to the contrary, your supporting "proof" is virtually nonexistant.

Example 1
Example 2 (4th paragraph)
Example 3 (7th paragraph)

Example 1: I'll reiterate since you seem to have missed it before. That list you kindly typed up are all things the devs have done previously and THE GAME GOT F-CKED UP BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION! I've never been much of a pvper. Hell, even when I played Shadowbane which is full pvp I didn't pvp that much. By the time Iquit SWG before, though, pve had gotten so ridiculous with the mobs with 300k HAM level 2 armor with 90% resists to all but one (maybe 2) damage types and attacks which even with 90% composite armor were hitting for a couple hundred, I started pvping because it was more entertaining. It was still f-cked up but at least it was somewhat fun for a little bit.

Example 2: Levels are not the end all you seem to think they are. They are merely a gauge and not even a good gauge when I, personally, can solo a level 76 as a level 64. I'm not tooting my own horn either as I'm not even the greatest swg player out there. It's just something I did yesterday which I thought was borked. You talk about NPC's being able to do certain things players would be able to do. Did you ever play Age of Empires 2? If not, it's a fun strategy game released by Microsoft several years ago. It comes with an AI scripting manual specifically for that game. That manual isaround 125 pages long,it doesn't include the aspects of the AI which the user wasn't allowed to script themselves,and that's for a simple AI. SWG is incredibly more complex. Those actions you talk about very well could be scripted but to even come close to the same level of capability any joe shmo has would require a script of record setting size. Again we come back to the limitations of currenttechnology but you just don't seem to be grasping the concept. The point is, every single tactic any AI uses has to be scripted in. You've already agreed AI doesn't adapt yet people do. For every adaptation a player makes against an AI, a new tactic would have to be scripted in for the AI in order to keep it fresh. That would require an enormous amount of man-power and (pardon my bluntness) if you think any sane business man would ok the amount of money involved just to update scripts continuesly when they have a commedity which naturally updates its "scripts" (players if you don't catch the subtlety), you're a dumbass.

Example 3: I'll concede NPC's would be much easier to "balance" in the situation described but it's much easier to put a bandaid ona huge gash then it is to go to the ER and get stitches. It doesn't make it a good thing to do. This is one of those things which really make me wonder what your gaming background is. Say you're playing Mortal Kombat or maybe Tekken. It's a mirror match so you know the abilities of your opponent because they are the same as yours. In the process of the fight yourbest move is consistently blocked no matter how you go about itby a counter-move you've never seen before. You look up every where you can think of to find out what this move isso you can learn itand eventually find out, it's for the npc version of the character only. Your best move is now useless. Incredibly frustrating isn't it? Multiply that by 3 or however big those npc gank squads you're dreaming of are and that's the reality of your suggestion.

Even if you accept the "players are devious"/adaptable statement as proof they're harder, I've still provided "two" more examples of ways the AI can do better than a player.

No, no you didn't. You only provided one example which had any merit and that merit was still wanting. Besides, contrary to your line of thought, more doesn'tequal better.

If you go back and check, I didn't start the "flaming". And I've consistently provided more ways in which a PvE encounter can be more dangerous than a PvP encounter, and noone has stepped up to counter my point. Which should tell you something...

Your cynical and obtuse attitude which your posts reek of started the flaming. Why don't you tone down your ego a bit for a while and check out how much better discussions can bethenstubborn and redundent arguing. Several people have stepped up to counter your single point. Just because you fail to see that doesn't mean that isn't the case. Let go of your stubborness and actually consider what most everyone in this thread has said and you'll see it.

gassygunslinger wrote:

As for sending NPC's after us, do you really think they are going to send level 90 stuff at us? I would guess at most they would send level 80, and that would be a laugh of a fight. If I have the option of getting PC BH's against me, at the price of possibly MORE goods (not different) than I would take it. I of course would not want this to be forced in any way, as to respect the non-pvpers. I just feel you need to have a little more respect for us.

Why wouldn't they send level 90s against us?

I agree. There's no reason why. Why would we want it though? CL difference effects how effective our status effects are. The point is to be able to get away. If we don't screw up that is.

Dear god, people in here are crying and crying and CRYING that PvP encounters are sooooooooooooooooooooooo much more dangerous than PvE and oooooh, you'll be soooooooo warned before it'll ever happen to you and it's soooooooooooo not forced on you.
Is this an admission that a level 90 NPC would be more dangerous than PvP and thus wouldn't be implemented? Why couldn't a big "THIS MISSION IS RATED 90 AND YOU MAY/PROBABLY-WILL DIE" warning go off for this, just like a PvP mission?

You're crying and crying and CRYING that PvE encounters are soooooooooooooooooooo much better then PvP. What's your point? Oh, that's right. Now you're just beginning to be a pr-ck. I may agree gassy's point about cl90 npcs was bogus but his point about respect is valid. We have done nothing to you yet you come in here maybe not actually hostile but with an attitude in your posts which conveys a hell of a lot of hostility. Have some respect for your fellow players if you want respect for yourself.

Good GOD. You can't push for the PvP angle without similarly pushing to allow PvE challenges to be incredibly dangerous. That is offensive. Why should the PvE players settle for piss-weak opponents while the PvP crowd get the "ever so much more dangerous PvP"?
Please. How ridiculous.

Oh and CapnKate? More of the reward is better than less of the reward.
PvP is not more dangerous than PvE, if balanced correctly.
A PvE mission that is deemed as dangerous as a PvP mission should therefore get the same reward.
If I'm "forced" into PvP to get the big payoffs, then the system is wrong. (Regardless of your opinion of whether this is "forced PvP" or not.)

Noone has managed to prove that PvP is more dangerous than PvE. The absolute best anyone has managed is saying that players are more dangerous than their "Level 80" rating might suggest, which I do agree with.
We can pull level 82 missions off mission terminals (on appropriate planets) and I see no reason why we could not take higher contracts from a smuggler contact. If it's deemed that level 90 missions match up to PvP missions, so be it.

But the option for that kind of thing should be there. Enough gimping of the PvE side to suit the PvP crowd.

Where are you gettingthe crackpot idea we don't want pve challenges to be dangerous? No one ever said that. ALL of us would absolutely love it if it were possible with current technology for pve to be as lasting a challenge as pvp is. The truth of the matter is, pve is not as lasting. That is the reason pvp should get more of a reward. While pve consistently gets easier, pvp consistently stays about the same so even though at the very beginning, the reward is a little skewed, a month down the road (or however long it takes for players to learn the AI) the reward evens out to the amount of risk involved. It's called foresight, the single thing (aside from a sunny disposition) you seem to be lacking. Pve and pvp are equal only for a SHORT TIME RIGHT AFTER THE INCEPTION OF THE PVE after which pve loses much of its difficulty while pvp retains its difficulty. That is the relationship between gamer and AI whether you choose to accept it or not.

You've been b-tching this entire thread about pvpers screwing over the pve'rs. You're just like them, all the pve'ers. While the pvpers are b-tching about balance, the pve'ers b-tch about content. You're all a bunch of whiney b-tches who act like 2 year olds. I started getting bored with SWG about 4 months after picking it up at Fred Meyers. You know what inspired me to keep playing? This forum. The people here who play smugglers and participate in this forum. You want to know why? Because these people in here are some of the most creative and fun people to converse with. The entire time I've been involved in the smuggler community, we've been working on coming up with game systems which we think we be smuggler and fun. There have been many incredible ideas but no matter how good the idea, it's always been picked apart so we could be sure we had a system we liked and also appeased the whiney b-tchs on both sides. You want to come in here and start pissing on that simply because we want both pvp AND pve? Then f-ck you. Drop smuggler like you said you're going to. Leave and let us come up with a system all sides can be satisfied with. The community would be better off.

*******************************************************
Explorer 80% - Socializer 53% - Killer 40% - Achiever 26%
Player type

Raanan Soulfire - Bloodfin MSmuggler/MCommando
Breytei E'kre - Starsider Commando/Bounty Hunter

RichardBryant

Thu May 26, 2005 8:32 am

#69

/blink

Stop taking the words right out of my mind!

Cael Broden, Master Smuggler.
I am Jack's Ignored Profession
"I don't have saber envy. I have patch envy. 2 years is unacceptable."
"Wars not make one great. AFK-grinding on wookiees on Kashyyk make one great!"

JURIAS

Thu May 26, 2005 9:22 am

#70

I think it would be great if Smugglers could be hired by Jedi or BH to add or remove Bounties for player characeters by slicing into a terminal. After all isn't that what the slicers do in the books. Alter information, add misleading information, delete information. A jedi could pay a MS to remove their bounty, or even worse for the BH to chage to the reward to 1credit.

SioBabble

Thu May 26, 2005 10:46 am

#71

WesBelden wrote:

The only talk I've heard from a developer on player bounties is that it's not being included with the Smuggler Experience update because it's important to get the system implemented right first, meaning that more can be built upon it at a later date. Now that could mean we might see a PvP BH system not too long afterwards, or it might be years before we see it, if ever. It's really open to interpretation and I suspect that's how the devs want to leave it until they decide otherwise.

Wes, really.

When has this development team (and more importantly, the marketing twits who are actually running the show) ever given a womp rat's ass about getting the system implemented right?

The intitial release was rushed. The CU was rushed. RotW is filled with bugs and was rushed.

These guys DO NOT have a track record of "gettig the system implemented right". They do have a track record of pushing out patches, publishes, and expansions on due dates whether they are ready or not.

Tazz vonMannstein Baron-Administrator of Corellia, master navigator of Corellia, captain of the Gregarious Gurreck

Sio Babble MBH/MCH/Cabana Boy; master of Tyson, the GNORT OF DEATH

Jeffn Akbar Nerfed from here to Lok MD/MCM

Zanti Agaesia Bothan MBE, 12 point Master Chef, Havoc Squadron Ace pilot

CapnKate

Thu May 26, 2005 11:03 am

#72

WesBelden wrote:
Thanks for commenting Tanks, I appreciate it .

However, I think the real issue here is not the method of implementation, but rather the ethos of the Jedi/BH system and how it affects other professions.

As CapnKate suggests and as was originally planned, Jedi gaining a bounty was supposed to be a threat, something they wouldn't want and the eventual confrontation should be something to be feared, or at least treated with the respect it deserves due to the real possibility of losing.

Now, from my own observations and seemingly from CapnKate's aswell, this simply isn't the case. For the most part, I've observed that Jedi players are of the mindset that victory should be assured and that clever tactics and skills (note: there's a very distinct difference between those and exploiting ) aren't something they should need to employ in order to win a fight. Of course that's my own interpretation and doesn't cover all Jedi.

A while ago Feign Death was perceived as being misused by both communities and was indeed a problem within the system; it seems that yet another ability from a seperate profession is causing upset.

I have to wonder then whether this is a symptom of the "We should be winning" mindset that many Jedi seem to have (somewhat ironic given that the latest films with Jedi in them show one of their greatest failings to be their pride and arrogance, but that's just my sense of humour and interpretation ), or if the problem is indeed a great unbalance with the combat abilities themselves. I honestly don't know which it is and would love for someone to come up with the deffinitive answer; my own opinion is perhaps a little of both.

Anyone any comments on this?

I completely forgot to comment on this, Wes, as I cam back to the middle of a PvP/PvE fight that had nothing to do with the post in question. I'd say you basically hit it on the head, but I'll also add that part of the problem is that there's not *alternative* to fighting. If you run, the BH can chase you as long as he likes. If he was inclined and could physically withstand doing so, he could hunt the Jedi from server up to server down, as many days as he wanted. There is no escape. None. You get away, the BH pops another droid. You log off, he keeps the mission and friends you, pops a droid later. You kill him, he grabs the mission again right away and does it all over again.

Sure, you can go stay on Kashyyyk right now... for... um, ever, or until the Devs change all that business. What fun that is, mmm? Not really a viable alternative.

What I seek is the alternative, and one that encourages Jedi to act like they were originally intended-- Hunted by virtue of what they are. In hiding, in secret. Not popping off 1500-point heals in Mos Eisley Cantina because they're a full template and don't care if they get whacked. Kenobi whacked a guy's arm clear off in the most wretched hive of scum and villiany you're likely to find this side of Nar Shadda, and five minutes later, Imperial Stormtroopers are on the scene. And Kenobi promptly *exits*. I can't imagine how it would have gone in Coronet or theed, but I know how it goes every day in game. the term "lolz!" comes to mind. it's too bad they can't bring back Permadeath for whatever reason, but if they could just find a way to make even a full template inclined not to behave like this, I'd be happy.

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Smuggler: We Diggs the Tiggs

Kaytlin Mainwaring, Starsider - Smuggler/CM/Commando/Rebel Pilot
Kaitlin Mainwaring, Kettemoor - Master Smuggler/Master Shipwright/Rebel Ace
--Former SpaceBeta1 Master Tester

mrbleepbleep

Thu May 26, 2005 11:32 am

#73

To supply a data point on the PvE difficulty debate - players have already managed to kill the level 500 guardians at the Jedi enclaves (without exploits).

Dasharr Eandall - Elder Smuggler

Amantha Galinn - Apprentice Smuggler

"The Jedi embrace peace butdeny passion.

The Sith covet passion but reject peace.

Neither is the whole truth. Life needs both passion and peace."

CapnKate

Thu May 26, 2005 12:05 pm

#74

I don't disagree with any of your points, aside from this: They do not reflect the reality of the game. The reality of the game is that no, things aren't perfectly balanced, and PvP is harder than PvE once you know the tricks to PvE. Under that reality, there's greater risk to the PvPer. Show me a SWG where your ideal world exists, and I'll support what you're saying and agree that both should pay out the same. As it stands, it doesn't, and I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

For the record, I'm not in the PvP crowd. I prefer PvE. But I recognize the draw of PvP and appreciate some of the realities of such. And I don't think that "more of the same spice" forces you to PvP to remain competitive. Fine, you disagree. But the only thing that I see that would *force* someone to PvP would be a reward *type* that wasn't available any other way. Fine, you don't agree, I don't care that much. But One wonders why you're so adamant about avoiding PvP if it's no harder than PvE. Unless you mean you don't like dealing with the people... but then, I'd count that as an added difficulty PvE lacks, I suppose.

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Smuggler: We Diggs the Tiggs

Kaytlin Mainwaring, Starsider - Smuggler/CM/Commando/Rebel Pilot
Kaitlin Mainwaring, Kettemoor - Master Smuggler/Master Shipwright/Rebel Ace
--Former SpaceBeta1 Master Tester

Smuggler Archive

Thread: My take on the whole BH/Jedi/Smuggler thing-- And my suggestion to the Devs