Smuggler Archive
Thread: My take on the whole BH/Jedi/Smuggler thing-- And my suggestion to the Devs
It may indeed have different/better rewards. That's fair. The risk is commensurately higher and therefore so should the reward be. But you always get the opportunity to choose whether or not you want that risk and reward, as stated in this forum many, many, many, times and still somehow, here we are with yet another forced pvp thread hijacked that way by yet another l0ser who doesn't have the bal1s to take a risk to get good loot.
I don't want to be hunted by some idiot AI. I want the risk and the thrill of being hunted by players. Because they change tactics, because they're less predictable, because they are not a lump of code but actually want me dead. You can make the loot/reward exactly the damn' same for all i care, the point is, i want smuggling to be a) possible, b) illegal and c) as dangerous as physically possible. And that means player BHs!
Taln2 wrote:Additionally, PvP and PvE are bonded by definition (and your own admission), so any aspect of the PvP game that supposedly destroyed the game could easily correspond to the same PvE aspect.
Sorry, wrong.
What I said was that "PvP has destroyed so many aspects of the game..."
They are bonded in this game, yes. But not by definition. It is purely by the devs choice that everything functions similarly in both aspects of play.
As such, things which make the PvP kiddies cry, get taken away from the PvE folk too. The current state of the Creature Handler Profession provides ample proof of this.
While PvP is mostly a blight on this game via poor design and implementation, it's obviously not going anywhere.
But I'd rather not see Concussion Shot be rendered useless in PvE play because of yet another whine-fest by the PvP crowd. Without a seperation of the functionality between PvP and PvE, the nerfing of Concussion Shot is inevitable.
RichardBryant wrote:It may indeed have different/better rewards. That's fair.
c) as dangerous as physically possible. And that means player BHs!
Different is fair. Better is not.
Level 400 NPCs are a lot more dangerous than a player as they are very much capable of one shotting even a spice/food/buff stacking Jedi Master Defender with a PSG, aura, infusion and a Doctor on standby. While you'd be lucky to even land a hit on them in return. (Excluding Avoid Incap there for obvious reasons.)
Player BHs being more adaptable might make them more interesting adversaries, for some, but it does not inherently make them any more difficult than something the server dishes up.
As for the "balls" comment. Grow up. I've gone after Krayts, solo, post-CR, JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. I've killed everything between the Science Outpost and the Nightsister Stronghold, because I wanted the trip to see Axkva Min be a bit less boring. I have "balls" a-plenty.
I have no desire to deal with asswipes in the game, therefore I don't participate in the part of the game that has the highest proportion of people like that - PvP.
I'm more than happy to take extreme risks, in order to get some nifty rewards.
You continue to make the claim, despite a MOUNTAIN of evidence to the contrary, that PvP is more dangerous than PvE. The only thing you bleat in return?
"Players are devious!"
Great. Fantastic proof there.
When you're "brave" enough to admit that PvP is no more than a "whose is bigger" contest, perhaps you'll pull your head in long enough to really examine how tough, interesting and exciting, PvE encounters could be.
If a player BH can take missions they will obviously have to get paid, so whats to stop cash exploitation for cash?
And whilst yes BH hunts can be fun at times it is a massive lottery for who you get taking your mission. Get someone good its enjoyable, get an idiot and it can be a very bad experience. I'd urge smugglers to not rush headlong into wanting a player bounty system purely for the reason is the initial test of it is still such a mess.
Wait and see how the NPC's fair in the proposed revamp then think of pushing for this. Once its there you probably wont be able to turn back, and if you get this as your revamp and dont like it what then?
Thats a great system. Hope a dev reads it.
No really likely tho.
riotcontrol wrote:
Oblox wrote:
Sorry but to throw one question into the fray.
If a player BH can take missions they will obviously have to get paid, so whats to stop cash exploitation for cash?
And whilst yes BH hunts can be fun at times it is a massive lottery for who you get taking your mission. Get someone good its enjoyable, get an idiot and it can be a very bad experience. I'd urge smugglers to not rush headlong into wanting a player bounty system purely for the reason is the initial test of it is still such a mess.
Wait and see how the NPC's fair in the proposed revamp then think of pushing for this. Once its there you probably wont be able to turn back, and if you get this as your revamp and dont like it what then?
Indeed. I propose we make a petition to remove slicing as you can run into an idiot customer. Spices too, of course. And not to mention the faction deals, everyone knows that GCW PvPers have a 60000% chance of being an "idiot". While we're at it, we might as well remove the chat channels, especially /tells and spatial, not everyone can be as quick as to /addignore people when they display the first warning signs of idiocy.
Seriously - the missions should be structured to encourage RP - they should be "no disintegrations" missions. Same NPCs that give Smugglers their smuggling missions should have a list of "deadbeat" Smugglers who owe a specific amount of money to the NPC (from failed missions - the Smugglers who can't take any more missions from that NPC), and the Bounty Hunter should find the Smuggler (possibly with no seekers, just the Arakyds and actual tracking), with a special trade window to collect the debt when he finds him. If the Smuggler refuses, then and only then should PvP ensue, and in case the Bounty Hunter wins, he would get the option to "extract" the money the Smuggler owes from him and wire it to the crimelord NPC. No deathblows - they would be disabled.
The Bounty Hunter's reward would be a significant portion of that money, so there would be no opportunity to do any cash duping. And the Smuggler's role in the interaction between the Bounty Hunter and the crimelord NPCs could be devised, so it's a mini-Underworld revamp, but... well, we just don't know how they're going to design the Smuggler missions yet, and I'm afraid (from what's been said about slicing - that it won't really be like the In Concept documents) that it might be very different from what we're expecting...Message Edited by riotcontrol on 05-25-2005 02:46 PM
This would eliminate almost all my objections - I don't mind being hunted, I mind things like clone camping, and that would not be an issue with this system
Mythor wrote:
Sorry, wrong.
What I said was that "PvP has destroyed so many aspects of the game..."
They are bonded in this game, yes. But not by definition. It is purely by the devs choice that everything functions similarly in both aspects of play.
As such, things which make the PvP kiddies cry, get taken away from the PvE folk too. The current state of the Creature Handler Profession provides ample proof of this.
While PvP is mostly a blight on this game via poor design and implementation, it's obviously not going anywhere.
But I'd rather not see Concussion Shot be rendered useless in PvE play because of yet another whine-fest by the PvP crowd. Without a seperation of the functionality between PvP and PvE, the nerfing of Concussion Shot is inevitable.
Um, no.
Creature handlers had to be nerfed way back when because of their insane PvP and PvE advantages the class offered. I remember seeing an imperial buddy of mine with six pets - 3 AT-ST and 3 CH pets;I believe a graul, rancor, and gurreck- take on the entire Nightsister POI at literally no risk. Andwe won't even talk about the trail of PvP death that person laid down. Non-creature handlers could also take up several of those ultra powerful pets themselves, and that had to be nerfed too. Perhaps later today I'll post a screenshot of "old school" PvP, in which at least half the screen was covered in CH grauls and gurrecks.
And with regards to concussion shot, I sincerely hope you realize it is a broken skill that is not working as intended. Rather than work like a mesmerize type ability that completely disables the opponent but breaks on damage, it is a root ability that simply immobilizes the opponent and lasts the full duration. That wouldn't be so bad, except that there's no checks and balances in place to keep it from being overpowered, hence the need for diminishing returns on successive roots.
You might interpret that as a nerf brought on by "PvP kiddies," but Isee it as intentional balance. Why? I'll detailmy typicalPvE and PvP battle for you. Keep in mind that I am master smuggler and master rifleman:
a) Openers: Concealed shots if able, then use concussion shot or startle shot as an opener (startle shot delays enemy attacks for 5 seconds, breaks on damage).
b) If it's melee/jedi, getbeyond 32mas soonas possible. If not, get within range
c) Debuff if necessary (usually versus master defender Jedi, although it doesn't makea huge difference).
d) Let them have it - unleash all my nukes, DDs.
e) Repeat until target dies or I get obliterated by NPC bug or PC Jedi.
I can solo anything in the game that can't outheal my DPS, which after about an hour of testing, seems to be CL94+. My ceiling turned out to be CL90 Grand Krayts, but CL94 Ancient Krayt managed to outheal me.
I suppose I could vary my strategy a bit to make the game more exciting, although as it turns out, I'm using just about every single ability granted to me to their fullest possible potential.
PvE at it's finest. Exciting.
While you're actively flaming opinions to the contrary, your supporting "proof" is virtually nonexistant. I agree with your sentiment here, though, ad hominem is nota valid counterargument.
Level 400 NPCs are a lot more dangerous than a player as they are very much capable of one shotting even a spice/food/buff stacking Jedi Master Defender with a PSG, aura, infusion and a Doctor on standby. While you'd be lucky to even land a hit on them in return. (Excluding Avoid Incap there for obvious reasons.)
Player BHs being more adaptable might make them more interesting adversaries, for some, but it does not inherently make them any more difficult than something the server dishes up.
As for the "balls" comment. Grow up. I've gone after Krayts, solo, post-CR, JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. I've killed everything between the Science Outpost and the Nightsister Stronghold, because I wanted the trip to see Axkva Min be a bit less boring. I have "balls" a-plenty.
I have no desire to deal with asswipes in the game, therefore I don't participate in the part of the game that has the highest proportion of people like that - PvP.
I'm more than happy to take extreme risks, in order to get some nifty rewards.
You continue to make the claim, despite a MOUNTAIN of evidence to the contrary, that PvP is more dangerous than PvE. The only thing you bleat in return?
"Players are devious!"
Great. Fantastic proof there.
When you're "brave" enough to admit that PvP is no more than a "whose is bigger" contest, perhaps you'll pull your head in long enough to really examine how tough, interesting and exciting, PvE encounters could be.
The complaint seems to be surrounding the term "better" and that "better" means "have to PvP". Bah. It's a basically fallacious premise to assume that "better" means "something I can't get any other way".
Wrong. Remember, we're basically dealing with two rewards: gaining spice for sale to players via skimming, and credits from completing the mission. Picking a High Risk mission versus a Low Risk Mission(IE: PvP vs. PvE) does NOT have to mean a difference in WHAT is available. The "better" reward for the former simply means I GET MORE OF THE REWARD. I don't HAVE to risk PvP to get glitterstim or pixie instead of shadowpaw. But if I need 100 units of a given spice, I may be able to get that running ONE PvP-risk mission instead of TWO PvE-only missions.
Essentially, I suspect that it's being viewed as "forced" PvP because it's assumed that the higher level rewards/spices will ONLY be available to the Highest risk, IE: PvP, smugglers. But we're forgetting that larger quantities of a given spice can also be a "better" reward... and that doesn't gate the PvE enthusiasts from selling all spices, nor does it alter the amont of "work" involved. the PvP Smuggler does more work for a reward of X amount of spice by tangling with player BHs. The PvE smuggler does more work for X amount of spice by spending more time to get the same amount with a less-risky prospect.
Mythor wrote:
Sorry, wrong.
What I said was that "PvP has destroyed so many aspects of the game..."
They are bonded in this game, yes. But not by definition. It is purely by the devs choice that everything functions similarly in both aspects of play.
As such, things which make the PvP kiddies cry, get taken away from the PvE folk too. The current state of the Creature Handler Profession provides ample proof of this.
While PvP is mostly a blight on this game via poor design and implementation, it's obviously not going anywhere.
But I'd rather not see Concussion Shot be rendered useless in PvE play because of yet another whine-fest by the PvP crowd. Without a seperation of the functionality between PvP and PvE, the nerfing of Concussion Shot is inevitable.
Different is fair. Better is not.
Level 400 NPCs are a lot more dangerous than a player as they are very much capable of one shotting even a spice/food/buff stacking Jedi Master Defender with a PSG, aura, infusion and a Doctor on standby. While you'd be lucky to even land a hit on them in return. (Excluding Avoid Incap there for obvious reasons.)
Player BHs being more adaptable might make them more interesting adversaries, for some, but it does not inherently make them any more difficult than something the server dishes up.
As for the "balls" comment. Grow up. I've gone after Krayts, solo, post-CR, JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. I've killed everything between the Science Outpost and the Nightsister Stronghold, because I wanted the trip to see Axkva Min be a bit less boring. I have "balls" a-plenty.
I have no desire to deal with asswipes in the game, therefore I don't participate in the part of the game that has the highest proportion of people like that - PvP.
I'm more than happy to take extreme risks, in order to get some nifty rewards.
You continue to make the claim, despite a MOUNTAIN of evidence to the contrary, that PvP is more dangerous than PvE. The only thing you bleat in return?
"Players are devious!"
Great. Fantastic proof there.
When you're "brave" enough to admit that PvP is no more than a "whose is bigger" contest, perhaps you'll pull your head in long enough to really examine how tough, interesting and exciting, PvE encounters could be.
Look, no offense, but you have a very clouded view on PvP. The point is not a who is bigger contest... It may have been before, but now atleast, its a test with an equal. Just saying that PvE is tougher because the CL's are higher, doesn't say much. Creatures are naturaly weaker than their CL level really is, so that way, we can defeat them. I find PvE to get boring sometimes... Why? Because NPC's are predictable... You can learn quickly how they will react, and use errors in their coding or just loopholes to give you the advantage. For instance, if you were fighting to players, and were going to sneak up on them,and you got in a distance where you could only shoot one, if you open fire on one of them then run back, they're both going to chase you. Why? Humans can't be tricked like this. If you're fighting in a dungeon, and you run away long enough, the player isn't going to give up his/herchase. But with NCP's, you can exploit all of these things.After the CU, PvP is a battle of wits... It goes on for a while, continualyswitching places with who has the upper hand. I have arepetoir of skills that work in different situations. You could argue thatthis is true for PvE, but I find that using the same combos in the same order pretty much produces the same effect... The NPC's don't LEARNfrom their mistakes, neither do they come up with strategies to thwart your own. Players can do that. Don't get me wrong, I suck in PvP, but I keep coming back for more. Because I know, that there is some combo, some trick I can use to win. And sometimes, with a new strategy, I do win.It's a battle of wits, thats ever changing. If you figure out how to kill a high level NPC once, you can do it again. You can't say the same for players.
As for sending NPC's after us, do you really think they are going to send level 90 stuff at us? I would guess at most they would send level 80, and that would be a laugh of a fight. If I have the option of getting PC BH's against me, at the price of possibly MORE goods (not different) than I would take it. I of course would not want this to be forced in any way, as to respect the non-pvpers. I just feel you need to have a little more respect for us.
Taln2 wrote:And with regards to concussion shot, I sincerely hope you realize it is a broken skill that is not working as intended.
I sincerely hope you don't sincerely believe that!
Concussion Shot and Stopping Shot are both WORKING AS INTENDED. They are most assuredly NOT BROKEN. Thunderheart has even said so and provided a "Tuesday Tip" saying to use Stopping Shot - you can see for yourself here.
Note that he explicitly says, "Once this combat message has been seen, it's time to let loose and do as much damage as possible for the duration of the rooting ability."
Want to try again?
Now, whether that is going to continue to be the case going forward is open to debate. I personally have no doubt it's heading for a nerf, because it can be used against other players. Particularly because it can be used against Jedi.
Taln2 wrote:While you're actively flaming opinions to the contrary, your supporting "proof" is virtually nonexistant.
Example 1
Example 2 (4th paragraph)
Example 3 (7th paragraph)
Even if you accept the "players are devious"/adaptable statement as proof they're harder, I've still provided "two" more examples of ways the AI can do better than a player.
If you go back and check, I didn't start the "flaming". And I've consistently provided more ways in which a PvE encounter can be more dangerous than a PvP encounter, and noone has stepped up to counter my point. Which should tell you something...
gassygunslinger wrote:As for sending NPC's after us, do you really think they are going to send level 90 stuff at us? I would guess at most they would send level 80, and that would be a laugh of a fight. If I have the option of getting PC BH's against me, at the price of possibly MORE goods (not different) than I would take it. I of course would not want this to be forced in any way, as to respect the non-pvpers. I just feel you need to have a little more respect for us.
Why wouldn't they send level 90s against us?
Dear god, people in here are crying and crying and CRYING that PvP encounters are sooooooooooooooooooooooo much more dangerous than PvE and oooooh, you'll be soooooooo warned before it'll ever happen to you and it's soooooooooooo not forced on you.
Is this an admission that a level 90 NPC would be more dangerous than PvP and thus wouldn't be implemented? Why couldn't a big "THIS MISSION IS RATED 90 AND YOU MAY/PROBABLY-WILL DIE" warning go off for this, just like a PvP mission?
Good GOD. You can't push for the PvP angle without similarly pushing to allow PvE challenges to be incredibly dangerous. That is offensive. Why should the PvE players settle for piss-weak opponents while the PvP crowd get the "ever so much more dangerous PvP"?
Please. How ridiculous.
Oh and CapnKate? More of the reward is better than less of the reward.
PvP is not more dangerous than PvE, if balanced correctly.
A PvE mission that is deemed as dangerous as a PvP mission should therefore get the same reward.
If I'm "forced" into PvP to get the big payoffs, then the system is wrong. (Regardless of your opinion of whether this is "forced PvP" or not.)
Noone has managed to prove that PvP is more dangerous than PvE. The absolute best anyone has managed is saying that players are more dangerous than their "Level 80" rating might suggest, which I do agree with.
We can pull level 82 missions off mission terminals (on appropriate planets) and I see no reason why we could not take higher contracts from a smuggler contact. If it's deemed that level 90 missions match up to PvP missions, so be it.
But the option for that kind of thing should be there. Enough gimping of the PvE side to suit the PvP crowd.
Some people don't want to PvP or ever even by slightly in danger of having to do. Fine. Hope you don't sell faction.
Have a delightful day.
See this link for part 1:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=96114
Part 1 reached over 1200 posts in less than a week. Clearly the smuggler & bounty hunter professions care deeply about the design of any kind of smuggling system. I'm really happy with the level of response. A lot of people who don't normally post are chiming in with their opinion and, in general, the discussion has been civil.
I want to try and distill the discussion down and start to find solutions. Here were the three big issues that turned into long discussions.
Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.
What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.
Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:
- Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
- Some players recommended a faction hit.
- Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
- Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.
Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:
- Loss of GCW faction.
- Loss of NPC faction.
- Combat & risk of death.
- Confiscation of the illegal goods.
One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. Thesolution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make somesense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.
This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.
It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.
At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.
Brandon Reinhart / GreenMarine SOE Designer, Star Wars Galaxies
Message Edited by Graxul on 05-26-200508:24 AM
Message Edited by Graxul on 05-26-2005 08:25 AM
Message Edited by Graxul on 05-26-2005 08:36 AM