Smuggler Archive
Thread: pricing for slices
P__Day
Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:29 pm
#66
Rare resources well if they are so rare how come i have large amounts of both HQ dolovite iron and HQ Lokian wild wheat in my basement havent counted but its well into 400k of both. How come i have close to 60k of HQ avian meat? Well because i know that when there has been no good dolovite, lokian wheat or avian spawns for a few months i can sell those for insane amounts of credits. I have 20 lots for harvesters that together pull about 500k pr week of the resource of my choice grinding materials alone net me at least 1 mill pr week, now when i sell materials at 10 cpu you do the math. what about those 60k's of avian when docs start paying 70 - 80 cpufor it?
I have 2 factories making slicing tools 23 hours pr day if i need to, simple because if i were to craft a knife and a clamp everytime i need to slice its a waste of time. I make more in 1 client selling faction than you do in 1 week of buffing 8 hours in coronet.I charge 10k pr slice at least, you know what i got for a few slices today? A scythe, a swordsold for at least 200k for 4 slices. You know what those 10k you get paid for buffs are to me? they're what i pay a dancer to heal 200 BF. A medic to heal 100 or so wounds. you can say i dont understand echonomy, but my bank account seem to differ. I can make 80k in missions for a total of 3 minutes + travel time. I would never go doc,it wouldlower my income to much. But you know what a 30+ dam slice will do to a krayt geno blaster? easially triple the value of it. What do you buffs do? triple my ham for 3 hours, making me able to make a few millions running missions, but i can make the same selling faction in half the time. The thing that buggs me is : Wheni can make 7k or more slicing a mission terminal, why should i slice your stuff for less? My usual client base gladly pays 10k so i slice for them and no others
And yes i am trying to piss you off enough to getout of the smuggler forum forever.
Hatovich
Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:31 pm
#67
Wow you are absolutely clueless. You have no idea what you are arguing about or what the discussion is about at all. The irony of it all is that you have proved my point and told me I'm right, and you have no idea you did it.
P__Day
Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:47 pm
#68
I might have proven your point but ask yourself this, if i as a non doc have acumulated such amounts of your resources at a price that would add to about 6cpu, then how can you say that doc resources are rare or expensive. But screw comparing smuggler to doc its a dead argument and its clear that im not gonna give up and your gonna keep complaining BTW how do you feel about 5 - 10k for dancer buffs?. The original point was whats more valuble? well the guy who got his krayt geno sliced for 30%+ damage and sold it for 3 million might have somethign to say.
But something closer to compare ourselves to Artisans and Powerups. you can buy 1 crate with 10 powerups for 1k that will add damagespeed, reduce ham and so on. Now im sure everyone who has actually been a combat prof can atest to howfast you can burn trough powerups. Now a service that puts a similar effect on you weapon from a smuggler mainly a slice is offered at 3 - 5k now this service is permanent, meaning it will last as long as the weapon. Now with powerups worth 5k you will get the same enhancement but only for 5000 shots which can be fired pretty fast. Now if powerups can be valued at 1k pr 1000 shots, then a slice should be worth the same 1k pr 1000 shots and i can with my hand on the bible that in about 5 days i hit something or shoot at somethignabout 20k times or more. so by pure logic aslice should beworth 1 credit pr attack. So when i use my sliced powerhammer to kill a nightsister elder 350k ham i do about 1500 damage pr hit so 350000 \ 1500 = 233.3 attacks , so pr elder i should pay 233.3 credits. Ive used the same powerhammer to kill well im guessing abuot 20 or 30 elders so 233.3 x 25 = 5832.5, but i still have my hammer its not even at 600 yet so i can probly kill about 30 more with it so when compared to powerups the slice of my hammer is worth about 12k, well compared to powerups that is.
Hatovich
Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:42 pm
#69
At the begining of all this, before we both lost our tempers, all I said I didn't care what smugglers charged, if they could get 10k for their slices more power to them, all I asked was they didn't compare slices to buffs because the two don't compare. That was the whole point of my argument, and I shoudln't have lost my head like that.
Intelerebel
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:48 am
#70
Time to re-open the can of worms......
Comparing Doc prices to smuggler prices is like comparing apples to oranges. And it has NOTHING to do with cost of producition nor effort involved.
What it has to do with is......value. Docs charge what they feel people will pay for their services. So do smugglers. When this game was still in its early stages, many smugglers used their "cost" as an argument in defense of their extremely low prices. But, I guarantee all of you that a miniscule percentage of those people actually took the time to calculate their cost in order to set their prices to begin with.Like everyone else, they looked at what people were paying, then they made a business decision as to whether or not to undercut the competition, or to sell at higher prices. It never had anything to do with cost. It's all about how much people percieve to be the value of your services.
In today's world of massive profession grinding, a 3-hour Doc buff transaltes DIRECTLY into more XP over a shorter period of time. Now I ask you......for the majority of the SWG players who are grinding one profession or another, what is more valuable than that?
I think that until PvP comes back to the forefront after the combat revamp, Doc buffs will continue to be the most valuable of services we can attain from anyone in SWG. I also believe that as long as slices continue to be completely RANDOM, Doc buffs will always be more valuable when it comes to paying for services, GCW or not.
Does this all mean that we can't charge 10K per slice? Of course not, you can charge whatever you want. Let's not forget that a Doc buff will only last around 3 hours, while a sliced weapon or armor will last much longer than that. But, you need to be able to position your services so that people will recognize that point if you want to charge in the 10K range and still have steady business.
But, trying to position our services, using a direct comparison with Docs, put us at a distinct disadvantage simply because of the XP factor. I mean lets face it. Most people grinding out XP today are doing it either solo, or in solo groups. And its only in groups that you can actually see a direct effect of having a weapon that does more damage. Sure, doing more damage while solo does help you to kill things faster, but after you've busted up 3 -4 lairs, its gets real easy to forget how much time you're actually saving. BUT, those Doc buffs remain ever-present, as a constant reminder of the fact that my weak-a$$ toon can now solo Voritor Lairs.
Anyway, you wanna real life example of how comparing us to docs is foolish?
Have you ever heard a lawyer say...."We all need to charge at least $150/hour for litigation, because Doctor Goldstein has been charging almost twice that for brain surgery."
Bottom Line:
It's not the same service. And neither the lawyer nor the doctor are fixing prices based on cost. Their fixing prices based on what they know they can get away with charging. That's capitalism at its finest fellas. Sell your stuff for as much as you can.
maloso
Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:22 am
#71
Hatovich wrote:
P__Day wrote:
OK
1. doc buffs do NOT require specific resources the scem says things like avian meat and dolovite iron, main class iron and both of these are in almost constant spawn.
2. Doc buffs lasts for 3 hours a slice lasts forever
3. I did the math in one tread and you know making a full set of 6, 20 charge buffpacks cost about 36k. 36/20 = 1800. the cost pr buff is 1800 credits. the doc charges 10k for the buffs thats about a 400% make up?
You are obviously NOT a doctor. Dolovite is not a constant spwan and it IS a specific resource. Not only do I have to wait for it to spawn, but I have to wait for it to spawn with good stats, something a smuggler doesn't have to do. Avian meat you're right that's not specific, but again I need good stats. Now I'll make you a challenge: You harvest 100k avian meat while I harvest 100k of whatever mineral resouce you need to make your tools and we'll see who is done first. I'd like to see how you figured out that it only costs 6k for a buff pack. Please show me that math because I MUST be doing something wrong. Don't get me wrong I make money, wouldn't do it if I didn't, but how much more could I make doing 27k missions on Dant, instead of hunting Flits on talus for avian meat?
I'm not going to try to tell smugglers how much they should charge (I am also on Naritus and the max I pay is 3k) but please don't spout off about something you obviously have no clue about.
My brother is and from a 300k investment in buff packs he make 2.2 million. So you tell me the mark up? As far as avain goes yeah you pay good for it up to 250cpu right now. But lok at cost to profit. you could pay up to 800cpu and still double your credits. So don't try to make anyone feel bad for you when you have a 12 persopn line and your charging 12k each. Or how about the guy who sells you the 1700 ham buff for 10k. Whats his mark up? 900%
maloso
maloso
Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:28 am
#72
XxMaddSeazyn wrote:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=94731
Here is the old thread discussing this. Here you will see 100cr per % is going out the window. People who charge 100cr per % are, like Digi said, undervalueing the service given. It really is that simple.
LOL thats funny. If I have to stop what Im doing to help you. I thing I deserve 5k - 10k. If I went to slice for someone and they said they wouldn't pay what I asked I would tell them good luck and continue on my way. I can run a 8 minute mission and get 50k killing rancors. Why should I pertend like my slice isn't important because you don't want to pay?
maloso
maloso
Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:30 am
#73
Intelerebel wrote:
Once again we've proved that noone can agree on a smuggler-wide pricing cartel.
Although I personally prefer to charge as much as I can for slices, I've virtually given up on trying to convince people to charge more.
I feel that the Doctor argument regarding buffs is one of the most ineffective arguments we can make for trying to convince people to charge more. Here's why.
As smugglers we all know how difficult it can be to grind all of our unarmed and pistol XP. When we spend 10K-15K on doctors buffs, we see an immediate, high-impact modicifaction that translates DIRECTLY into XP gain. We can all argue how modifying a weapon can translate into more XP (especially when hunting in groups). But when it comes to soloing or solo-groups (such as is commonplace today), having a gun that does 25% more damage isn't usually the difference between being able to kill bocatts or Savage Quenkers. Ultimately, it's the Doctor's buffs that allow us to go get bigger, more interesting MOBS, that award more XP. Simply put, in a world of XP-grinding, be it for holos or simple profession acheivement, Doctor's Buffs have a far greater and visible impact on your character than a slice does. Therefore, I don't think that trying to compare our services presents a valid argument.
But, we DO provide a unique service which everyone demands. For THAT reason, I charge as much as I can. Especially when Im the only smuggler in the starport.
Very Good Point!!!
maloso
Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:50 am
#74
Ratphink wrote:
I was one of those who used to go by the 100c per %. After reading over what others were charging plus the fact that smugglers do provide an important and commonly asked for service, I upped my charge to 7k per or 35k for a set of armor. Obiviously, I give em a break for noob weapons or quanity.
I can understand the % charge when your working your way up the tree, but once you hit master, it just isn't fair to the smuggler to charge that rate anymore. I think this ability has long been undercharged. So far most people haven't had a problem with the 7k. If they do I usually tell them that their upgraded weapon/armoris worth morethen 7k is in this game. Not from a monetary standpoint but usage, skill and mission cash. That seems to make sense to most, they then ask for the slice.
Your always gonna have those that try to undercut the next guy. They can waste there time on 2k or % slicing. But I really think masters should respect each other and charge no less than 5k so people
I agree I slice for my guild and fiends for free. I figure if they are a scout and I say hey get me this meat I dont want to hear okay 10cpu I just want the meat. But If Im shouting at a port or worst going to do something and I get a tell he can u slice for me. I don't want to hear 5-10k is alot. I like the slide scale 5k for a low or normal slice 10k if its a good slice. All masters should stick to this then there would eb no fighting. I every doc charged differently then we would wait 30 minutes while we beat out head together over a price. I don't ask I tell them up front out loud and all. I charge 5k per item if the slice goes over 30% I get 10k for that item. Only have had 2 people tell me no. One was more of a I wouldn't do it anyway. He tried to tell me what he would pay after I told him what I charged kinda rudely. So I said great feel free to find a master Smuggler who will take that..... next.
Then the other told me that since we get xp from it I should do it for free. I explained how I was a master and didn't gain anything from it and I would do it for my set price. He said I was a rip off and should just do it and stood next to me asking for about 20 second......... well he got ignored after 20 seconds he stood there longer so who knows 
.
. But we do need to set our standards. Charge 5k if its a noob I can understand that but don't get pushed around by someone who needs you. Last time I checked I could run missions and and buy and sell, even craft without slicing for people. So who needs who?
maloso
maloso
Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:01 am
#75
Hatovich wrote:
Izhozz wrote:
If you charge 10k for a slice youll dont get those customers that we joke with on the Chuckle For The Smuggler thread...Docs are raising their prices,time for us to do it!
*sigh* I really wish smugglers would stop comparing themselves to Docs. It really is two totally different things. How much time do smugglers spend finding high quality organics to make their tools? How much time do they spend finding high quality inorganics for them? If they spend any they are wasting it since the Smuggler Dev has already stated that tool quality doesn't matter. The same CANNOT be said about buffs. I was trying the political angle and being polite, but let me break it down for you: Slices are NO WHERE near as importat to people as buffs not even close. Ask yourself this: If you only had 10k in your pocket an were going out on a big hunt, what would you spend it on a slice that MAY increase your speed or MAY increase you damage, or would you get buffed and even if you got Max damage (35% right?) do you truely believe that that increase would yeild the same benefit that a buff would?
You know why doc's are able to increase their prices? People NEED buffs slices just don't have enough gain to make them worth while.
When someone is grinding a new combat profession, they don't even bother to slice their intermediate weapons, but they ALWAYS get thier buffs.
I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but PLEASE stop comparing yourselves to Doc's, you'll lose that argument everytime
How much time did a doc spend getting HOW MANY MILLION of pistol xp for basicly nothing? Most doc stood afk ina med center all night witha tumbler. I know I did it for 3. Plus ur grind is all macro'd try to macro the 750k of slicing xp u need for master smuggler. Can't be done. So in a way it is two different world however Doc and by that I mean most Doc don't do a whole hell of alot. On Bria I Think maybe 10 Docs on the whole server make buffs the rest buy them from them. Then they plop down and make a 400% profit in one hour. So if you want a badge because you found a vendor selling stims to macro to doc and then found a new one to buy buffs your way off. I like buffs and use then alot and never complain about hte price. But how would docs act if everytime some one said how highs your buff? The doc says 2300. The guy goes okay heres whaT I pay 7k. Whats the doc going to say? Well okay my packs are cheap? No he'll say get lost like I do when someone wont pay what I charge. As far as comparing there is none. We are involved in the action of the game. You camp star ports.
Aerinheart
Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:32 am
#76
The other day a guy charged me 5k, did an 18% speed slice.
Frankly, that ruined a good weapon. It was exactly as effective as before, since I was speed capped, except now I couldn't sell it, and it no longer had the potential to be improved.
And you want me to pay 10k?
Look, I can go and fight with an unsliced weapon. I'll do less damage, but I can do it. I *can't* hunt without doctor buffs. Plus, the doc buffs take top-of-line materials. When you spend 350 c/u on the materials you need to make clamps, feel free to charge 10k. When you spend 2 million credits on a skilltape for +1 slicing, feel free to charge me 10k. When you can guaentee I'll get a 30%+ damage slice (doctors can tell me what I'm paying for, smugglers can't), I'll pay 10k. Hell, you do that last one, I'll pay 50k.
But you want me to drop 10k a slice on a total crap shoot, that costs you nothing more than 3 clicks of the mouse and a tool I could buy a crateload of on the bazaar? I'll master smuggler myself before paying that! You say I pay dancer's 10k to afk macro? I don't, I *tip* 3-5k because I value the service. I don't place any value on an 18% speed slice. Why the hell should I?
Here's a pricing system that would make sense to me: you get less than 20% speed, you get nothing. You get less than 15% damage, you get nothing. After that, you get 100 cr per speed, 500 per damage %.
Last, I want you to consider new players: when my entire bank acount has <50k in it (as it did, for months), asking me to spend 1/5th of my total cash reserver on a mere slice is an insult. That's greed, plain and simple. Now, I can afford a 10k slice now: but someone said it best when they pointed out you needn't charge 10k to slice a weapon bought from a novice weaponsmith for 5k. Don't give this "if it's a crappy weapon, then 10k is fair game to improve the slice" nonesense. For 15k, you could go out and buy a good weapon to begin with. Then do a mission or two and pay some *reasonable* smuggler 2k for a slice.
You smugglers get hosed by the devs, thats fair. But taking it out on every other proffession is petty in the extreme.
And thank you, to all the good hearted smugglers on Corbantis, you guys are great.
P__Day
Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:28 pm
#77
Lol you tip a dancer 3 - 5k but wont pay the same to have your weapon inproved? Our resources are alot harder to get that a dancers for mind buffing. The thing you seem to miss is i can make 80k in 6 minutes doing mokk missions from a sliced terminal that means that in 60 minutes you can make 800k enough to have 80 weapons sliced. I can run those missions i do alot, the thing is you dont pay for the slice, you PAY for me bothering to reply to your tell, for taking the time to trade with you, nto for the resources i use.
TriAxis
Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:53 pm
#78
This weekend I experimented with a higher slicing fee and no one even questioned me.
I am chargeing: