Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
BoozTezi
Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:39 pm
#508
Afraid of the search button? Not me. Bring it on. Bring on the bounty hunter too. Part of the supposed re-vamp is an increase in the smugglers PvP skills. I am a master smuggler/master TK with a litttle pistoleer thrown in. I recently got scanned in Mos Espa and got caught and was teffed until I talk to an imp recruiter. To me, that is a permanent tef so I just collected all the fp i could until I was finally killed by group of overt Imps that came through. It was fun and very rewarding fp wise.
true_Kieran wrote:
darkjedidroid wrote:
as a bh and sorry for going on your site but i love this idea it brings excitement to the underworld life that smugglers and bh's shouldface.
like others mention this brings excitment to smugglers and alt bounties to bh's
look at this way ( if you can)
smuggler= drug tracifficer
bh= hitman
if the drug tracfficer gets busted and the drug lord want him ir her dead then the hitman comes.
You should be here long enough to remember some of the thread and the reasons why some people didn't want it. If these things ever change, some around here might reconsider the idea.
But please people tell me, why is it that so many of you are afraid of the search button, are you afraid it might bite you?
BoozTezi
Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:45 pm
#509
Setwe wrote:
I really liked the last idea but i think it could use some adjustments. Don't ake away itmes tat had nothing to do with the mission, such as armor or weapons the character had prior to the failed mission. Taking away those would just piss people off. For BH deaths have them take the money they owe to whoever gave them the mission (from bank and whatever us on the character). Also after i player is DB'd by a BH have them incur a big nasty annoying long lasting poison. This way it gives insentive to stay on the run from the BH. This way bounty hunters taking player targets have to actually work hard at it. Maybe even ask people in the area if they had seen (insert name) at the starport, or leaving the city on a swoop/mount. Also have BH's able to go into any house amark isin (so you just cant go hide in a friends house). SMugglers should also have some limited ability to track where a BH is so they know where to run or not. They can talk to an NPC informant(at a price of course)or slice a BH terminal and depending upon their skill they can get a vague description of where a BHmay be. Meaning if they are lucky the terminal/NPC may tell them "______ is on Naboo"
I picture it this way:
A smuggler recieves a mission from Lady Valarian to transport x amount of illegal weapons to a buyer on Talus. The smuggler runs into several snags along the way and doesn't get it done in time. He fails the mission. A bounty is put on him, and it happens to be player hunting him. He knows that he is screwed if he gets caughts so he runs. First intoCoronet to runto Yavin where he can hideout for a while and maybe assemble a group of player friends who can be his body guard, or just hide there until the bounty hunter runs out of time on the mission and fails it. He checks with an NPC informant at the Labor Outpost, no dice. He knows the planet pretty well and decides to hide out in the northwestern mountains. From time to time he goes and checks at the outposts to see if there is any word on the BH. One time he discovers that the BH is in the sector (after JtL comes out) and flees. He goes to Lok to hide out again. Too bad for him that the BH sent tracking droids out on Lok already. His is found and the BH quickly reroutes to Lok where he finds the mark. He kills him, the mark loses his money and takes a pretty nasty death penalty.
This may soundlike it would be a major hamper on the game experience but it wouldn't be. For one the BH getto have a fun experience, and even the smuggler gets the thrill ofthe hideaway and the eventual fight.
just my $0.02
I picture it this way. I dont hide. Ilure the BH in. Not all BH's are good at what they do and many are not much more than novice. When a Jedi Knight brings 227k (as an example) I dont see the smuggler being high on the master BH list. The BH just might get more than he bargained for. Hopefully, there will some pain felt for the BH that accepts the bounty on a smuggler but fails the contract.
Setwe
Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:29 pm
#510
The advantage of taking a smugglerbounty mission, where there might be a risk of failure due to not being able find the mark (because they have the ability to stay one step ahead of the BH) is that it is a more sure kill if you do find them, making them more suited to less skilled BH's. But smugglers who have evaded capture more than once or twice should have a bigger payoff. And those who always seem to get away should have a huge payoff that would draw some of the best bounty hunters in the galaxy (player+NPC).
BoozTezi
Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:20 pm
#511
Setwe wrote:
The advantage of taking a smugglerbounty mission, where there might be a risk of failure due to not being able find the mark (because they have the ability to stay one step ahead of the BH) is that it is a more sure kill if you do find them, making them more suited to less skilled BH's. But smugglers who have evaded capture more than once or twice should have a bigger payoff. And those who always seem to get away should have a huge payoff that would draw some of the best bounty hunters in the galaxy (player+NPC).
I could see that, if a smuggler was just a smuggler. But many (myself included) dont intend on being an easy mark. I have PvP skills. I'm not uber but i"m a long way from an easy mark. I have master smuggler, master TK and some pistoleer. That is why I suggest that there be a penalty to pay for the BH that finds his mark but loses to the smuggler. Kinda makes them choose their target wisely.
Woges
Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:57 am
#512
You'd have to add Smuggler and BH reputation points. The points go up when either has a sucessful mission and down if they don't. Kinda like the pvp rating.
GrimRebuke
Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:42 pm
#513
I like the idea of high-end missions getting you noticed on the terminals. And some kind of ranking system is a great idea. I do think that getting killed should knock you off the terminals until you do something to get back on. I also think that if a bounty-hunter fails one of these missions, they should risk getting visibility themselves. I'm certain most factions would pay a fair price for the head of a bounty-hunter that regularly failed them.
STURMTOIFLE
Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:28 am
#514
Well, I'm new to the Smuggler Profession - still working on Mastering it at the moment actually.
I do look forward to the prospect of some of the changes discussed here which might be implemented after JTL, and Ican see how they will certainlyadd more depth and funto the profession.
So far, I've found this thread full of interesting ideas, engaging discussion and passionate players. Kind of refreshing really.
Anyhow, the one point I wanted to comment on was the PvP aspect being discussed. I'am in favour of the idea in general - though from my perspective - making yourself in some way open to attack to some guy who is purpose designed to kill Jedi - would seem to logically necessitate equal combat or defensiveability for Smugglers.
Perhaps any modifications to a Smugglers combat abilitywould be better suited if they weremore of a defensive nature, such as stonger damage mitgation, dodge, reistence to DOTs - just tossing a few ideas out there.
I'm not sure how it could be, or how it should be done to be honest - I DO feel though, that the Smuggler's current "combat abilities" won't do a whole lot to disuade, or defeat a Bounty Hunter.
From my perspective, it simply seems that putting yourself in the sights of a guy purpose designed to kill Jedi (and you don't have all those handy Jedi skillsto balance the PvPequation)is a recipe for apretty one sided affair which isn't in favour of the Smuggler.
So, I think - that if you're seriously going to consider making Smugglers suceptable to Bounty Hunters, then you ought to do something to their combat (or defensive) ability to compensate - otherwise, the Bounty Hunter is simply taking a mission for a Turkey Shoot - regardless of how well versed you are with yourhotkey for BurstRun, or what other Professions you might also hold. 
This isn't to say that I think Smuggler alone should be (combat wise) on par with Bounty Hunters - but they should be better able to defend themselves/escape perilous situations than they currently are.
Now - all that said, l doalso understand that you can(potentially) combine other professions with Smuggler to formulate a sound PvP character - but I don't think this should be the exclusive answer to giving Smugglers afighting chance against Bounty Hunters.
I don't think there is any need to give Smugglers the worldor anything here - just more than what they currently have (in terms of combat or defensive ability) in order at least have a chance against a Bounty Hunter. I mean looking at their existing skill tree - there really isn't a whole lot there thats going to make you a threat to a Bounty Hunter, or at then very least - make you a hard target.
Personally, I think more defensive bonuses would be more appropriate and in keeping with the "role" of a Smuggler - which would concievably give the would be targeted Smuggler - a chance to escape.
Anyhow, sorry for the longwindedness - but I just wanted to add my 2 cents. 
eodem
Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:48 am
#515
/agree
defensive bonuses would be right. But we do hafto keep in mind that the bounty hunters are supposed to kill smugglers. i mean it wouldn't be much of a punishment if jaba sicked a bounty hunter against a smuggler, when smugglers were designed to be immune to their attacks. i think the bonuses should be places in evasion, suck as a faster burst run speed or make a /hide command.. Just a few ideas
defensive bonuses would be right. But we do hafto keep in mind that the bounty hunters are supposed to kill smugglers. i mean it wouldn't be much of a punishment if jaba sicked a bounty hunter against a smuggler, when smugglers were designed to be immune to their attacks. i think the bonuses should be places in evasion, suck as a faster burst run speed or make a /hide command.. Just a few ideas
Setwe
Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:12 pm
#516
Smugglers were supposed to have combat abilities that were sneaky and mainly allowed them to buy time to either escape or call for help. Now i know all the names ofsmuggler abilities suggest that but they don't actually do that. I completely agree with giving uis some defensive abilities. I thought maybe we should also get a longer faster burst run that has a 30 min timer on it or something.
STURMTOIFLE
Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:26 pm
#517
Yes - you're pretty much hitting on what I was thinking.
I don't figure that whatever defensive bonuses might be given to a Smuggler ought to simply "cancel out" a Bounty Hunter's Offensive capability - after all, as you point out - if theres going to be a "punishment" - then there ought to be a pretty good chance of it catching up with you.
However, such Bounty Missions for against Smugglers, shouldn't be a walk in the park or have pre-determined outcomes either - simply because the Smuggler has little Combat/Defensive ability.
I'm trying to take into account, that not everyone that has a Smuggler, will necessarily have other combat professions (or skills) which would lend themselves well to defence in particular. To stipulate, that a Smuggler's survival exclusively relies upon another profession or itsskills would pretty much prevent anyone going Smuggler AND concurrently taking up other non-combat/support skills/professions. I'm not so sure that we would want that.
Anyhow - whether it amounts to more dodge bonuses (for example) or some sort of heads up on your radar, or a some sort of system message - there are a variety of different means with which Smugglers might be given some sort of (small) "escape" or defensiveadvantage, but whatever it might be - it also can't be made too powerfull or made possible to be exploited by those that DO have additional Combat Skills/Professions,(for instance - using ittolie in wait and ambush the would-be Bounty Hunter).
I guess all I'm trying to spit out, is from what I've seen - Smuggler as it is now - provides nothing combat or defensive wise that threatens a Bounty Hunter's impending missionsuccess.
If we're going to open up Smugglers for Bounty Hunters to hunt - then I think that Smugglers ought to be beefed up (a little - not a lot) to at least give them a chance to get the heck outa dodge, or some sort of defensive edge in combat which prevents them from being sitting ducks.
Jedi, at least have defensive bonuses and skills which given them some measure of protection from a Bounty Hunter. Smugglers - don't - nor would they. But they would have that "6th sense" - which might give them enough of an edge to get out of a deep kaw kaw situation by the skin of their teeth.
Kelko
Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:58 pm
#518
GreenMarine wrote:See this link for part 1:Part 1 reached over 1200 posts in less than a week. Clearly the smuggler & bounty hunter professions care deeply about the design of any kind of smuggling system. I'm really happy with the level of response. A lot of people who don't normally post are chiming in with their opinion and, in general, the discussion has been civil.I want to try and distill the discussion down and start to find solutions. Here were the three big issues that turned into long discussions.Summary 1: The key argument was over the impact of "visibility" punishments for ripping off suppliers or failing smuggling missions. There is a portion of the player base that desires PvP and a portion that does not. The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs to a faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- Critical Mission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
The rewards for critical missions would be somewhat higher than normal missions. Also, some types of illegal cargo would only be available via critical missions. The RISK is possible PvP as well as other penalties. The REWARD is rare components (if you cheat the supplier) or better cash.What about normal players scanned with illegal items? For now, it seems reasonable that we don't add visibility for normal players. That's too much to ask of the player base as a whole. Later, we could possibly add a level of illegality above Highly Illegal (say, Military Class) that gains visibility. It seems wise to leave this area open for future discuss, but not include it in a revamp.Summary 2: The second major issue revolved around the punishments for being caught with contraband:
- Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
- Some players recommended a faction hit.
- Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
- Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.
Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:
- Loss of GCW faction.
- Loss of NPC faction.
- Combat & risk of death.
- Confiscation of the illegal goods.
One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. The solution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make some sense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.
This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.
It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.
Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.
Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.
This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.
At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.
Awesome, glad to hear there might actually be some risk involved with becoming a Smuggler. Something else that several people suggested that sounded really great and possible. Since we really have no perks for Master Smuggler, why not add a perk that allows the Master Smuggler to have a "Black Market Contact". This would actually be a vendor that would allow the smuggler to sell contraband goods. This could work into the Visibility system as the longer you have your contact sitting in one place selling, or the more you sell through him before relocating him, the more visibility you gain. As well as running the risk of having your "contact" arrested and any goods still on him get confiscated. The Smuggler would then have to pay a hefty fine to "spring" him from jail in order to regain the ability to use the "contact" again. This would mean that Master Smugglers would have to keep moving their "contact" around to avoid arrest and visibility. Check out the thread where Pheonix and Kill made the suggestions.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=123634
STURMTOIFLE
Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:59 am
#519
Something else to consider for any potential missions taken against a Smuggler, could be incapacitation vs death - capture vs kill.
Recall from the Original StarWars (Episode 4) where Gweedo had cornered Han Solo - with the intent of taking him in alive back to Jaba the Hutt?
Of course, things didn't turn out the way Gweedo would have liked - but my point, is that there is a difference between an assasination mission and a bounty mission. I guess Gweedo was only a Novice Bounty Hunter.
The mark - should be - worth more to the mission originator (or his faction in general) alive, then dead.
I think the easiest way to refelct this within the game as it is now, would be to simply give the Bounty Hunter the option of capturing his target after he has incapped them.
With that done, he should get mission success and the full reward. The unfortunate Smuggler, might simply reappear at the cloning facility, or perhaps - if possible (and better yet) inside the respective complex deemed to be the "centre" of a given faction.
Once there, you could entertain all sorts of options. Perhaps, the captured Smuggler has to "earn" his freedom, and regain the trust of his former employer (missions, or tasks).
Perhaps he might not be able to leave a given area until he has completed those tasks/butt kissing missions in order to get back out into the galaxy at large.
I know one thing, that it certainly would be a pain to work for Nym for instance - get caught by some Bounty Hunter, and wake up on Lok infront of Nym himself and then have to grind brownie points so you can leave.
Anyhow - there are all sorts of options, but I think capturing a Smuggler ought to be worth more than just killing him - though that should remain an option (especially if he is also a TKM and can "will" himself back onto his feet).
A mission which simply ends up with a dead Smuggler - ought to still be worth somthing, but only a fraction of what a capture would have been.
Lots to think about to be sure - but as is plain to see here, and in the rest of this thread, there is a great deal that could be done to enhance the Smuggler and Bounty Hunter Professions concurrently; while adding even more depth and immersion to the game as whole.
K, I'll shut up now.
Kelko
Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:30 am
#520
That is where something like the Jedi TEF system comes into play. It will only allow the BH, and not the rest of his group, attack the target. The only way they would be able to attack you is if you are of an opposite faction and Overt. And I don't know of too many Overt Smugglers.
zantoes wrote:
One of the major problems with the jedi - bh mission is the groups going after the jedi . Jedi are stronger and few bh can solo a jedi.Smugglers on the other hand are at an even par with bh and bh is a loner profession right ? What chance do i have to escape and group of 10 hunters after me ? I did not said kill bh it is not my job to kill him no profit in it .I ask that smugglers mission be a solo mission for bh . If they can not solo a smuggler they have no business being a bh and is a disgrace to the profession.The bh knows he is about to be in a fight i don't.