Smuggler Archive
Thread: Dual Wield not in CURB (I thought this thread died)
SmugglinZane
Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:11 am
#40
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Wow that was increadibly self serveing. I am sorry I simply must push for a llc upgrade as well. I should be doing 800 to 1600 points of damage. This is increadibly biased. Why not just punish commandos bhs carbineers riflemen pikemen swordsmen marksmen. Obviously you didnt read the post where i did the math. It would be a huge freaking advantage go back up and read through it. Its all there why it be bad, but hey maybe you do not care if the game completely fails.
Thank you so much for coming right out and showing us what your agenda was instead of beating around the bush with it. Listen, just because it won't benefit your template does not mean it will be game breaking or unfair.
Now to answer your misguided comment, it is not self serving, it's logical. You have one handed weapons and you have 2 handed weapons. The weapons mentioned are all one handed weapons. Your logic is extremely flawed. And once again I'd like to point out something about your math... IT MEANS NOTHING! Your math means crap until you get the numbers that will be in effect after the CURB.
To call this a self serving idea is quite funny to be honest since the person you were responding to actually went beyond pistols and mentioned the other one handed professions. The fact that 2 of the 3 mentioned have serious problems at this point should also show you that there are reasons for players of those professions to look for something like this in the CURB.
Zane
SmugglinZane
Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:18 am
#41
JTGAlpha wrote:
Why does it have to be more than cosmetic?
I completely agree with this, and with holsters... But I think that's where the problem lies. I'd bet more than anything that the majority of the people involved in the CURB are programmers and not artists and that you won't see too many new movements, even though they stated that they were looking to add more "action" movements to combat, but that they will recycle a lot of the old ones.
Changing the mechanics so that two pistols register andadding holster and holstering movements are probably two things they don't want to factor in time for.
The simple fact that a lot of people just want "the look" of two pistols tells you that making it a cosmetic thing would satisfy most of them.
Zane
JTGAlpha
Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:06 am
#42
I think the devs would much rather add holsters and dual weaponry as a pure cosmetic. Because seriously think of the balancing they'll have to do. It would throw everything out of whack. Cosmetically would be easier.
SmugglinZane
Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:37 am
#43
You neglect to acknowledge the fact that when implementig duel wield, they can make the HAM/Timer on specials used during duel wield could be made more costly. Think in terms of the FUTURE not as things are now.
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Okay lets talk the ham specials revamp. Someone mentioned specials costing time. Which is true if the system involves the TH ham system. Which would mean that specials are drawn from specials ham pools as compared to direct drain from the HAM pools. This is designed to add strategic use of specials and to limit spamming. Since these pools would not be buffable. Now obviously the weapons ham will still be in affect as compared to the weapons ham cost. Otherwise you lose the value of differing attributes on weapons. In other words a player useing an unscoped dh17 would suffer less ham costs which would allow for more shots at the price of some accuracy.
This would mean that players would still be able to have the variability they want in guns and hopefully after the CURB this should be more fun. Its an issue of a player being able to unload a huge amount of firepower in a very fast amount of time. Plus doubled over damage.
Now if as you say its just cosmetic. Then do we want to have devs spending even a second on it before dealing with actual gameplay improvements. They would have to mess with the avatar add the doubleing feature. Hell they would even have to work on traceing as well. All that is actually all very complicated programming.
Holsters are cool. I would like to see holsters in the game. There I do not think they would be too time consumeing. I think players should get a few more visible profession displays. Stuff like quiver for heavy weapons. Medic bags for medics a holster for pistol users. Stuff like that would be cool and go a long way towards professional identity.
Simply because you would want it does not mean it would be any easier to do the artistry and game changes for it. You just got done explaining why duel wield would take too many resources to do, but then you add a whole slew of things that would honestly be more challenging considering that using symetry and mirroring images already ingame would be the base for duel wield while adding holster, quivers, and medic bags, and the animations that will come with them would be designing from step 1.
JTGAlpha
Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:01 pm
#44
Now if as you say its just cosmetic. Then do we want to have devs spending even a second on it before dealing with actual gameplay improvements?
Uhhh...no. Haven't you been keeping up? I done said they shouldn't. It ain't gonna happen in the CURB. It'd be wicked hard to add into the current balance, and then you get people like you who want stupidly large weapons for dual weapon play which would frankly look sillier than a trandoshan in a tu-tu. In short...who cares? Would it be neat? Yep. Is it high on my "want" list? Nope.
ana-mo-cara
Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:44 pm
#45
Obviously some people here do not read things they just skim them.
1. I said if you double over the power of pistols as in dual weild. You should also double over things like heavy weapons. Fair as fair can be. The pistol power gets doubled over so the llc should get doubled over. Weapons like llcs pay a huge damn penalty for being so strong. Slower then snot, and its like trying to swat a fly with a sledge hammer. In other words its very inaccurate. I do not see why I should bother its like describeing color to a blindman. I challenge you guys to take up a heavy weapon profession and use the heavy weapon in pvp. Until you do I just do not think you can understand. That with added power there must come a price.
2. Even if you argue well it will even out, because you will cripple the pistol users accuracy and double the speed costs and whatnot. Which really boggles my mind. Why double the speed on a pistol. If your into this kind of thing go carbineer and riflemen. You are still back to it just being cosmetic. Ergo another pointless feature. I like gee cool stuff too. Though I usually demand that it not be utterly empty. Which this would be. Far better to fix the animations on some combat moves or something else.
3. Do I think functional clothing items would be resource intensive. No and I can tell you why they are really static items. So you have a bandoleer with a peice of the tech backpack you know the white cylinder. There you go a medics kit. You take a chitten bracer and put it next to a backpack quiver. You want a holster you just use just take four holocrons put them into a l shape paint them black and put them on a left thigh. So I do not think they would be as hard as trying to animate a guy useing both pistols and running away fireing. You could just build the items into existing items bandoleers backpacks peices or armor.
SmugglinZane
Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:47 am
#46
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Obviously some people here do not read things they just skim them.
1. I said if you double over the power of pistols as in dual weild. You should also double over things like heavy weapons. Fair as fair can be. The pistol power gets doubled over so the llc should get doubled over. Weapons like llcs pay a huge damn penalty for being so strong. Slower then snot, and its like trying to swat a fly with a sledge hammer. In other words its very inaccurate. I do not see why I should bother its like describeing color to a blindman. I challenge you guys to take up a heavy weapon profession and use the heavy weapon in pvp. Until you do I just do not think you can understand. That with added power there must come a price.
My first character (on Naritus) was a Commando, so don't tell me about Heavy Weapons, but I can keep two things in mind during this whole conversation. As things stand now: No matter how quick you are with a pistol, you cannot damage anything like a Carbine on up. Take players carrying each weapon available in game, and have them target a high HAM target and the pistols will never do anything near in overall damage, hence shooting two pistols may be able to balance that. This conversation is with regards to FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS: If they were to implement this, they would have the ability and option to balance it in a way that will keep pistoleers for doing the same damage as heavy weapons with a single pair of shots!
2. Even if you argue well it will even out, because you will cripple the pistol users accuracy and double the speed costs and whatnot. Which really boggles my mind. Why double the speed on a pistol. If your into this kind of thing go carbineer and riflemen. You are still back to it just being cosmetic. Ergo another pointless feature. I like gee cool stuff too. Though I usually demand that it not be utterly empty. Which this would be. Far better to fix the animations on some combat moves or something else.
You see now, that's the point. Many people just want the ability to do it. They're the only one handed ranged weapons in game, so why wouldn't they be able to? You seem to suffer from a lack of imagination and the fact that you only hear the voices that are in your head. Do you honestly not realise that the reason this topic spilled over is because it's something that players want? The want to be Pistoleers. They don't want carbine or rifleman specials, weapons, or even their ways in combat... they want their own, and they want it to be UNIQUE! Right now it's a red headed step child to snipers and basicly machinegunners.
3. Do I think functional clothing items would be resource intensive. No and I can tell you why they are really static items. So you have a bandoleer with a peice of the tech backpack you know the white cylinder. There you go a medics kit. You take a chitten bracer and put it next to a backpack quiver. You want a holster you just use just take four holocrons put them into a l shape paint them black and put them on a left thigh. So I do not think they would be as hard as trying to animate a guy useing both pistols and running away fireing. You could just build the items into existing items bandoleers backpacks peices or armor.
Do you really thing that people are asking for holsters without the ability to holster the weapon? Turn the voices off and listen to what people are saying here man. They want to draw their weapon. As far as the the technical aspect, YES I DO KNOW THEY"RE COMPARABLE. If it's just a static item, they're both equal in how complicated they will be. What you say won't work due to one simple fact... LA must approve anything put intto game. Who here really thinks they're going to approve lame artwork like turning holocrons into a holster? At least the programming and artwork is in for cosmetic pistols. The rest of the avatar is symetric. Many of the movements are as well. I'm not saying it wouldn't be complicated, but that it's just as complicated as adding new items to the game.
I see you tell people they don't understand what you're saying. I see you say that what others want to see is unacceptable.
What I'm really hearing in all of this is that I don't want it, so nothing you say will change my mind. I hear you refusing to listen to anything anyone else has to say.
What I don't hear is why you seem to think what everyone else has to say is beneath you.
Zane
ana-mo-cara
Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:52 pm
#47
1. Why people want clothing is beyond me. Why we need 100s or clothings when four or five sets would do. Though we have it if you think holsters look cool fine. Atleast that clothing seems to be in keeping with what the professional should look like. Mind you that we have chef hats in the game and some other retarded looking clothing. I love the big royal headress myself its retarded being gunned down by someone wearing that, and they are rolling around too for pete sake.
2. What are you on about heavy weapons. Hey the things are damned inaccurate. Then again they are heavy weapons. If you want to take on a tank you use a RPG. We are talking pvp rules here not pve. Go ahead use a flamer in pvp see where it gets you. In my mind a pistol is far more suited to pvp then pve. Infact a pistol should be more decisive in pvp. I use my pistol on people and my llc on creatures. I know the limitations of both. Do I think a llc is signifigantly stronger over the hall then a pistol no. Why because no matter what I want my llc will not burn bleed blind a target, and there it lies one of the big points. Pistols have some pretty good state attacks and dot attacks to their credit..
I think you need to learn to shut up, and figure what you are talking about. Your in some strange world that says look at me I am a victim. The game is relatively balanced in the weapontypes. Pistols are well placed. WIth great speed, and accuracy and low ham costs. Now do not let the current inbalance confuse you as to the advantages that will net pistol users in the CURB. I am not going to waste my time though.
You have decided your a victim, and quite frankly I think you need to get off of this for fantasy sake nonsense. You need to accept that the system overview looks balanced. Without popping in a totally new combat system for aestetic value, or to give yourself an unfair advantage.
Two more things for the thinks hes oh so smart in the corner.
1. If your a pistoleer you may have somewhat limited big game killing ability. The CH in me is ticked off that you want that too since you waste my pet with two hits and waste me with two hits for being dumb enough to take up CH. Pistoleer is a little panzy profession. It deserves to be so shut up and deal with it. You cannot go out and kill kimogilias as easy with pistoleer as a commando cry me a river.
2. Why the hell did you copypaste my previous post to put in a pith comment after each paragraph. What is this thread so chaotic and moveing so fast your worried that somehow the logic would be hard to follow? Stop useing my post as filler in an attempt to make it look like you have a point.
SmugglinZane
Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:00 pm
#48
ana-mo-cara wrote:
1. Why people want clothing is beyond me. Why we need 100s or clothings when four or five sets would do. Though we have it if you think holsters look cool fine. Atleast that clothing seems to be in keeping with what the professional should look like. Mind you that we have chef hats in the game and some other retarded looking clothing. I love the big royal headress myself its retarded being gunned down by someone wearing that, and they are rolling around too for pete sake.
2. What are you on about heavy weapons. Hey the things are damned inaccurate. Then again they are heavy weapons. If you want to take on a tank you use a RPG. We are talking pvp rules here not pve. Go ahead use a flamer in pvp see where it gets you. In my mind a pistol is far more suited to pvp then pve. Infact a pistol should be more decisive in pvp. I use my pistol on people and my llc on creatures. I know the limitations of both. Do I think a llc is signifigantly stronger over the hall then a pistol no. Why because no matter what I want my llc will not burn bleed blind a target, and there it lies one of the big points. Pistols have some pretty good state attacks and dot attacks to their credit..
I think you need to learn to shut up, and figure what you are talking about. Your in some strange world that says look at me I am a victim. The game is relatively balanced in the weapontypes. Pistols are well placed. WIth great speed, and accuracy and low ham costs. Now do not let the current inbalance confuse you as to the advantages that will net pistol users in the CURB. I am not going to waste my time though.
Listen here a$$hat... Nobody cries victim in this forum like you do. You cry whenever someone doesn't agree with you. You cry whenever someone wants to argue a point with you. ALL YOU EVER DO IS TALK ABOUT HOW NOBODY IS ON YOUR SIDE ABOUT THINGS. Here's the point to every post I've made in response to yours. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FUTURE POSSIBILITIES AND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE HERE AND NOW. And you still don't get that point. What it all comes down to is that I am sick and tired of trying to point this out because it's like talking to a brick wall. The only person who doesn't get things around here is you, plain and simple.
You have decided your a victim, and quite frankly I think you need to get off of this for fantasy sake nonsense. You need to accept that the system overview looks balanced. Without popping in a totally new combat system for aestetic value, or to give yourself an unfair advantage.
I've never considered myself a victim. That is your way of doing things. I have sat here and argued why the game should be expanded instead of limiting it to the things that suit me best. I've tried to use logic with somebody who does not think logicly because they cannot think beyond what's best for them. I acknowledged your math, but I also told you it was inconsequential. Other people told you the same, but you continue to use it like it means something.
Two more things for the thinks hes oh so smart in the corner.
1. If your a pistoleer you may have somewhat limited big game killing ability. The CH in me is ticked off that you want that too since you waste my pet with two hits and waste me with two hits for being dumb enough to take up CH. Pistoleer is a little panzy profession. It deserves to be so shut up and deal with it. You cannot go out and kill kimogilias as easy with pistoleer as a commando cry me a river.
Hmmm... CH, real iconic for Star Wars right? Keep in mind CH got what it got because that's all this game was about... Let me toss something else out to you about CHs. The Rancor in Jabba's Palace was a baby, and it was caged, it was a menace. Tell me why you think one player should even be able to control a Rancor, and spare me the math why don't you.
You're a moron if you think Pistoleers don't serve a point in combat. If they were really meant to be meaningless, then why are they going to so much trouble to balance combat... because the Riflemen need attention?
And as far as being a Pistoleer... I'm novice, I used the majority of my skill points on Smuggler and Weaponsmith. Dual wield would not even be something I could use, so it wouldn't effect me. I just prefer to argue on behalf of what other players want in the game becuase I think it's better to expand things than to limit them.
2. Why the hell did you copypaste my previous post to put in a pith comment after each paragraph. What is this thread so chaotic and moveing so fast your worried that somehow the logic would be hard to follow? Stop useing my post as filler in an attempt to make it look like you have a point.
Why I did it was because I chose to answer your points. Next time I won't do it when responding to you, but in this post and previous post, I wanted to make sure you knew what pointsI was referring to. It's actually intended as a helpful thing so you don't have to go back and read what you wrote before.
Like I said above. I tried to debate, but just can't get through. I never portrayed myself as a victim, but if that'swhat you have to tell yourself tofeel justified in the fact that you NEVER listen to what others say, so be it. If you want me to pull up your previous posts that justify what I've said about you, then I will, but I imagine you still won't listen. It comes down to this, I love a good debate, but I can't stand people who want to participate and yet can never acknowledge what's been said. You made your points, they were countered by more than one person. I'm not saying we were definitely right, but we, at least in my case, were trying to move it along into the context that was relevant.
SmugglinZane
Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:08 pm
#49
I'm done with this thread. It has degraded into something that isn't even worth commenting on...
So for one last time, my official position is that I would like to see dual wield implemented, understand why it isn't, and feel the pain of those who were really hoping for it.
Nicolas_Frost
Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:10 am
#50
ana-mo-cara wrote:
Wow that was increadibly self serveing.-Have you not seen where it was plainly stated that they would not mind a graphic of wielding two pistols, while not actually having the benefits of two? Oh yeah, that would require you to pay attention, which you've already proven you are completely incapable of.I am sorry I simply must push for a llc upgrade as well. I should be doing 800 to 1600 points of damage. This is increadibly biased. Why not just punish commandos bhs carbineers riflemen pikemen swordsmen marksmen.-Even *IF* we were capable of wielding twoseperate pistols at once, that wewouldbe balanced by a drop in accuracy, and speed when using specials.Obviously you didnt read the post where i did the math. It would be a huge freaking advantage go back up and read through it. Its all there why it be bad, but hey maybe you do not care if the game completely fails.-Obviously, you're completely oblivious to the fact that your little piece of math will be of no consequence when the CURB is done. They aren't just handing out nerfs, they are completely *changing* how combat interaction is done.
ana-mo-cara wrote:
The point is dual weild is not cosmetic.-The point is, some of these guys just want to *look* like they're carrying two pistols, but damage and suchstill work as if it wereone. That would mean that dual wielding is cosmetic. Dumbass.It turns pistols into a hybrid weapon with the best of both worlds. Pistol speed with heavy weapon output, but even better it has pistol accuracy where heavies and special heavies are powerful but increadibly inaccurate. With contrary special mods.
In other words you asking to carry a llc with none of the drawbacks that were put in to keep llcs from being I win weapons.-No, we're asking for either two pistols with balanced drawbacks, orthe ability to *LOOK* like we're carrying two pistols, but only use one.Hell the ham costs on two pistols alone are smaller then a llc which leads to huge spam. Read the math I did. It shows all the reasons why its really bad.-How about "NO!", ya freaky dutch bastärd?
Look at me! I'm Ana-mo-cara! I like listening to the sound of my own voice asI talk and talk and talk without taking into consideration other people's thoughts. Just listen to my voice,its wondrous! I could just go on and on about how much I like to hear myself speak. Really, I could, because it would mean I would be speaking, which I love to listen to. Really. Me speaking is the best thing that has ever graced your insignificant lives, you know. You just need to admit it.
JTGAlpha
Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:20 am
#51
Why would someone quote your post? Because it's an easier point of reference for readers. If I'm matching your post point by point it's nice to have the drivel I'm smacking down made readily available for mockery for other readers.
If wielding two weapons wasn't cosmetic, they'd have to make some major adjustments to pistol speed. But here's what I think would have to happen: speed would go UP. Two guns=more bullets. Damage would remain the same. Two guns does NOT equal higher caliber. Accuracy would go waaaaayyyy down. Say a 50% bump (or less) in speed to a 50% drop in accuracy (or more). So no one would be able to take out your pet with any more hits. It might just take us less rounds to get those hits in. Pistols should be fast, short ranged, and light damage. And in the CURB, by the way, they're redoing range. So take that into consideration. Yes, I'll be using two pistols. But if I'm not right up on ya, I'll probably be operating at yet ANOTHER deficit to accuracy. These things do, as they are meant to, add up.
ana-mo-cara
Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:16 am
#52
Okay some people are really ignorant. Okay I suppose I have to explain it to you like a child.
You all seem to have two points of view on what a dual weild will be. Either its purely cosmetic or it actually has some bonus. I am gathering most of you want to double over pistols and use them for powerful strikes. The point is as a pistoleer no you should not be able to do this. Its counter indicated. You chose pistoleer it has advantages it has weaknesses. It is a panzy profession. Its just a notch above master marksman. Thats just a fact. Though its not all bad for the points spent you can now devote the remaining points to other areas to help your template out.
Do I think CH should be able to control rancors. Then again I do not think players should be able to pull speeders from their pocket. Sadly you must be missing the point about this being a game. You want to engage in your fantasy let the ch do it aswell. Personally I would prefer more midrange creatures my self in dimenstions. I also think that a GSP shouldnt be stimieid by a melee fighter at all. Though should have real issues with a commando. Some realism must be sacraficed for gameplay. That is just the way it is.
The point I made with the LLC was pretty damn plain the fact that you insist on trying to take it out of context really shines on you as being idiotic. If pistoleer has the option to double firepower with his weapons. Then a BH/COMMANDO should have the same option. Its called fair since their weapons were built on the heavy hit system. Your just nulifying their advantage. The same goes for rifles and carbine. If you want to have a system to double the output for pistoleer why not a system for everyone else. I know why because you want to service yourself at the cost of others. You want to be able to cover more damage ranges then you are supposed to. Carbineer and Riflemen are in the same boat as it were. I suppose a riflemen would love to be able to pull out a spraystick that had pistol mods. A carbineer would love to use a sawed off carbine for pistol mods.
All your really saying is you want to take away from pistoleer that which makes it singular. You want it to have all the advantages of everyother ranged profession combined. I suppose the riflemen should just fork over their t21s and the bhs should give all their mods and moves to pistoleer.