Smuggler Archive

Very exploitable in GCW base raids if there was no timer.

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yimaz wrote:

FoW is balanced the way it is because it's an outstanding skill, incomparable to what you're suggesting for FD.Is FoW limited only to masters? - yep it is pointless until master Does it auto-fail againsta prof it was designed to target? - sorry it does fail, so yes it does Of course not, TKAs would revolt. Why should we be any different? - FOW is pointless until master, sorry but your agrument on this one is moot.

See my response to 1. Adding a % of failure AND increasing the level requirement isdouble-jeopardy, unless you add more of a significant benefit (FD black-rot is currently a pretty small-time problem). - that was my point (did you miss that) the benefit is that you become unattackable (i.e. no black rot)

(No, but you sure missed mine) I'm stating that Black-Rot isn't that big an issue. Fixing it certainly isn't enough of an improvement to make the skill useless against BHs and whoever else wantsan automatic counter to it (medics and therebymosttemplateers, etc.).

Personally, I'd much rather see Feign dropped completely than have it nerfed into oblivion as both Bounty-Hunters AND Smugglers have been proposing. If it's such a problem, get rid of it and give us something we can use. Because these Master-Level, PVE-only, reduced-effectiveness, Hour-Timer proposals all do essentially the same thing: FD might stay on the skilltree, but itwould certainly be removed from our toolbars. - any skill that negates a DB needs to have some lvl of balance in FD's current state i agree with you 100% but if we became unattackable when we FD'd it would need to be on a timer to prevent abuse. Its not nurfing the skill if we became unattackable when we FD'd. Most of my proposed changes are based around that one key issue. If your still open to attack (black rot) when FD'ng then yes I agree with your whole post.

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So your key goal is fixing black-rot at the expense of the rest of the skill. Doesn't that sound a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater? If BHs, Medics and every templateer on the servercan break Feign, then no one would use it effectively in PvP and black-rot wouldn't be an issue. And in exchange, it's usage in PvE would also be reduced to obsolescence, since no one other than a master smuggler could use it, it'd have an increased chance to fail, AND an hour timer. For no PvE benefit.

-Zz

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Bzzzz wrote:

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yimaz wrote:

FoW is balanced the way it is because it's an outstanding skill, incomparable to what you're suggesting for FD.Is FoW limited only to masters? - yep it is pointless until master Does it auto-fail againsta prof it was designed to target? - sorry it does fail, so yes it does Of course not, TKAs would revolt. Why should we be any different? - FOW is pointless until master, sorry but your agrument on this one is moot.

It's not moot, you just missed it. It does fail, but notwith an increasedchanceagainst any particular profession. You seem to want FD to fail a certain % of the time (which I agree with), but then you ALSO want it to be broken by Bounty-Hunters, which is a double-jeopardy. Adding a timer to it at this point is unnecessary. If it could already fail, and BHs could then break it anyway, what's the point in a timer?

See my response to 1. Adding a % of failure AND increasing the level requirement isdouble-jeopardy, unless you add more of a significant benefit (FD black-rot is currently a pretty small-time problem). - that was my point (did you miss that) the benefit is that you become unattackable (i.e. no black rot)

(No, but you sure missed mine) I'm stating that Black-Rot isn't that big an issue. Fixing it certainly isn't enough of an improvement to make the skill useless against BHs and whoever else wantsan automatic counter to it (medics and therebymosttemplateers, etc.).

Personally, I'd much rather see Feign dropped completely than have it nerfed into oblivion as both Bounty-Hunters AND Smugglers have been proposing. If it's such a problem, get rid of it and give us something we can use. Because these Master-Level, PVE-only, reduced-effectiveness, Hour-Timer proposals all do essentially the same thing: FD might stay on the skilltree, but itwould certainly be removed from our toolbars. - any skill that negates a DB needs to have some lvl of balance in FD's current state i agree with you 100% but if we became unattackable when we FD'd it would need to be on a timer to prevent abuse. Its not nurfing the skill if we became unattackable when we FD'd. Most of my proposed changes are based around that one key issue. If your still open to attack (black rot) when FD'ng then yes I agree with your whole post.

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So your key goal is fixing black-rot at the expense of the rest of the skill. Doesn't that sound a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater?- how is it the expence of the rest of the skill, again this is based of FoW which is very well balanced.If BHs, Medics and every templateer on the servercan break Feign, then no one would use it effectively in PvP and black-rot wouldn't be an issue.- if it was a BH skill only and a skill very high in there skill tree why would this be a problem. Not every person goes BH and where did you get medic from?Many, many PVP'rs are not BH's and agin if the skill is high in the tree dabblers would not bother with the skill.And in exchange, it's usage in PvE would also be reduced to obsolescence, since no one other than a master smuggler could use it, it'd have an increased chance to fail, AND an hour timer. -lol, look maybe use nicks % mods for the skill progression, there is a small chance it will fail now, it seems logical to increase that ifyou become unattackable and the timer im forced to use with FoW in both PVP and PVE keeps me from using it until i have too with is the way FD should be. For no PvE benefit. - FD is a last resort skill and it should be used that way in both PVP and PVE.

-Zz

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

My thoughts: Feign Death:

• This skill should define how a smuggler would save his own skin, over someone else’s by leaving his group to their fate.


• Feign death remains where it is, but it would be to the advantage of game balance and immersion to alter the mechanics of the skill from a passive to an active defense.


• Instead of lying on the ground, have the smuggler up and running while undetectable to all players for a time. Entering combat would break this state. This is akin to the smuggler fading into the crowds (or wilderness) for a time.


• To convey that this skill is changed, a renaming of it might be in order.


• The ability could be instigated through the use of a device, such as a flash-bang. Anything to provide a distraction and grant the smuggler an escape route.


• The higher the skill of the smuggler, the longer and more effective feign death should become.


• Bounty Hunters, Jedi and Smugglers should have a better chance at seeing through this ability and none of them should be able to see through it easily no matter their skill level.

To make the detection trivial is to render the skill useless.

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Bad bad idea.

It's like the old idea of snipers to be invisible to other players when taking cover. Not applicable couse the client/server must know where are you and your position must be updated, so this will make it poosible to ppl to use 3rd party "radars" that will be able to show where you are hiding.

I think a better solotuin will be makeingFD more like COB, you canot COB while holding a pistol, you cannot FD if you are not holding a pistol certed in marksman/pistoleer or unarmed/VK, also add 1 min timer from last weapon change, i.e, you cannot unewquip your saber and feign, you have to wait an entire minute before (a jedi unarmed for 1 min is a dead jedi)

Message Edited by Atanmir on 12-14-2004 02:08 AM

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Atanmir wrote:

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

My thoughts: Feign Death:

• This skill should define how a smuggler would save his own skin, over someone else’s by leaving his group to their fate.


• Feign death remains where it is, but it would be to the advantage of game balance and immersion to alter the mechanics of the skill from a passive to an active defense.


• Instead of lying on the ground, have the smuggler up and running while undetectable to all players for a time. Entering combat would break this state. This is akin to the smuggler fading into the crowds (or wilderness) for a time.


• To convey that this skill is changed, a renaming of it might be in order.


• The ability could be instigated through the use of a device, such as a flash-bang. Anything to provide a distraction and grant the smuggler an escape route.


• The higher the skill of the smuggler, the longer and more effective feign death should become.


• Bounty Hunters, Jedi and Smugglers should have a better chance at seeing through this ability and none of them should be able to see through it easily no matter their skill level.

To make the detection trivial is to render the skill useless.

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Bad bad idea.

It's like the old idea of snipers to be invisible to other players when taking cover. Not applicable couse the client/server must know where are you and your position must be updated, so this will make it poosible to ppl to use 3rd party "radars" that will be able to show where you are hiding.

I think a better solotuin will be makeingFD more like COB, you canot COB while holding a pistol, you cannot FD if you are not holding a pistol certed in marksman/pistoleer or unarmed/VK, also add 1 min timer from last weapon change, i.e, you cannot unewquip your saber and feign, you have to wait an entire minute before (a jedi unarmed for 1 min is a dead jedi)

Message Edited by Atanmir on 12-14-2004 02:08 AM

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SERIOUS PART
Solution to BH whine about FD

Give them a skill as "check pulse" at investigation 3 or master BH (much better ^^ whiners are the same that try to grieff and to get "Uba template for kill noob jedi until he's dead to make him canCel mwhahahaha i pOw3d u NoOb"... *cought* scuse me)

BUT that only works on target designated by their missions....

So that BH can only use that skill on jedi that are feigning if they have a mission on them

IRONY PART
New gank squad
Master BH : stays away, come just in case the jedi FD to kill him

Classical gank squad
BH/TKA
BH/TKA
BH/TKA
BH/TKA
BH/TKA
BH/TKA
BH/TKA
Swor/TKA
Pike/TKA
Ranger/TKA
CM/DOC
DOC/TKA
Danser (for mind buff ^^)/TKA
Musician (for mind buff ^^)/TKA

Did I said TKA?
Wasn't it about BOUNTY HUNTERS and not TKA?

mmm, let me think about it, i may have made a mistake, i posted it into BH forums...
I'll correct it and post it into TKA forums....

JOKE PART
Or why not change it from "Feign death" to "silly trick".... and that you gain effectivness by raising underworld and dirty fighting tree
You (BH) : "you're a dead man"
You shoot at RandomSmuggler (RS) for 200 damage points
RS uses Silly Trick on you
RS yell "DON'T WALK ON THE BANTHA POO !"
RS takes a head of speed
You are stun
You cannot move
You are confused
You say "what poo?"
5 seconds later
You say "I HATE THIS TRICK"


Note to one star ninja : can you comment how you rated my post and why you put only one star on it?
TO be clear, i will flag irony,serious and joke parts

Message Edited by Eulbobo on 12-14-2004 07:07 AM

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FrankLee wrote:

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yimaz wrote:

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Ternque01 wrote:

At some point you are going to have to realize that playing dead has no place in player bounties.

Even with a balanced implementation, a bounty hunter WILL check the corpse. It is part of his/her job.

The existence of a workable "play dead" feature contrasts the way that BH's operate with respect to their checking their marks, and I think this is the issue.

I'm getting tired of saying this. While FD is a cool feature that could be included in player bounties, it is inappropriate. You still couldn't pay me 1 million credits to believe that playing dead in front of a trained assassin is going to work. Once their mark has been incapacitated, they move in and DB everytime. They do it like clockwork for cold hard cash.

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I will agree with you on this to a point. Jedi should not have the skill and BH's should not have the skill but smugglers in a bounty situation should have the skill. After all a BH's job is to kill and ours in to make money in a under world of the galaxy, staying alive and being sneakier then everyone elseis paramount. We fool people all the time when we smuggler illigal cargo (well we are supost to anyway) so we should be able to fool a BH from time to time.

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Falling into the '(insert class) doesn't deserve feign death' line of thought is a cop out. The skill system is set up in this fashion for a reason; to create diversity.

If you have the points, you get the skill. End of story.

If you want to move the skill, or move effective mods, that I can agree with. Ganking the skill based on other profession choices is bogus, and shortsighted. If I happen to be a Jedi with DF-4 (which I'm not) then I expect each and every privelage granted a smuggler grinding his way up to master that happens to be at DF-4.
Should a BH be able to break the skill? Personally I think not, but I could abide giving them an /inspect command that factored their skills and experience into checking the lifesigns of a 'corpse'. I'd also give it to a medic, for their technical expertise, and a Jedi, for their enhanced perception. If FD worked, it should give a BH chasing a Jedi a 'kill', award the experience and the money. Fight's over, BH moves on.
Worried about a kill/collect loop? Re-use the same decaying-opponent code they've got in the newest FRS. One bounty on the same target every so many days. It'd help the ancillary problem of repeat-gankings anyway, which practically ensures that the idea is trashed.

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What one star?

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Eulbobo wrote:
What one star?

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Jaguarrr wrote:

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Atanmir wrote:

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Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

My thoughts: Feign Death:

• This skill should define how a smuggler would save his own skin, over someone else’s by leaving his group to their fate.


• Feign death remains where it is, but it would be to the advantage of game balance and immersion to alter the mechanics of the skill from a passive to an active defense.


• Instead of lying on the ground, have the smuggler up and running while undetectable to all players for a time. Entering combat would break this state. This is akin to the smuggler fading into the crowds (or wilderness) for a time.


• To convey that this skill is changed, a renaming of it might be in order.


• The ability could be instigated through the use of a device, such as a flash-bang. Anything to provide a distraction and grant the smuggler an escape route.


• The higher the skill of the smuggler, the longer and more effective feign death should become.


• Bounty Hunters, Jedi and Smugglers should have a better chance at seeing through this ability and none of them should be able to see through it easily no matter their skill level.

To make the detection trivial is to render the skill useless.

---

Bad bad idea.

It's like the old idea of snipers to be invisible to other players when taking cover. Not applicable couse the client/server must know where are you and your position must be updated, so this will make it poosible to ppl to use 3rd party "radars" that will be able to show where you are hiding.

I think a better solotuin will be makeingFD more like COB, you canot COB while holding a pistol, you cannot FD if you are not holding a pistol certed in marksman/pistoleer or unarmed/VK, also add 1 min timer from last weapon change, i.e, you cannot unewquip your saber and feign, you have to wait an entire minute before (a jedi unarmed for 1 min is a dead jedi)

Message Edited by Atanmir on 12-14-2004 02:08 AM

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Ehm, no. I dont think it is nessecary to hold a pistol or vk in your hands to fake your death. Feign death has to not just fool the character it has to fool the player too. So to speak, you appear as corpse and your target gets the (faked) system message about gained pvp, earned money and such. Why not? If you are not olding a pistol or unarmed you are not using your smugler skills (smuggler's pre req = unarmed+pistol), why FD should be different from other specials? Can you flamesingle holding a powerhammer? or you want to be able to FD using a different template that beter suits you? Also i think that FD should only work if after you used the skill and took dmg at least one of your HAM bars is under 100 making it more tricky to use.

And well, 3rd party programs get you banned, easy as that. And seeing you doesnt mean I can attack you, so ka?

3rd partu programs get you banned if adev orCSR can detect you are using it, but in real life noone get banned gor using a sniffer for have another radar. And you are right, seeing you doesn't mean i can attack you, but it completely nullify the ability of the smuggker to flee out of the battle as intended in the caylin description.

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