Smuggler Archive
Thread: Why I'm quitting the game, and some serious questions for smugglers to ask themselves.
Tonteth wrote:
Actually, you're wrong. The agreement was posted on the old SWG site. Holocron and other devs have said in the past that Lucas hired them, SOE gives them server space. Before everyone hated this game, the devs tried to get all credit to Lucas. Now that the game is hated, you don't see them correcting the mob. Holocron was hired by Lucas. Holocron picked the devs. Holocron is paid by Lucas. Holocron speaks for Lucas in all matters regarding this game. I don't see how SOE can be linked to control especially since everything is controled by Holocron.
Why would SOE stop supporting/production on EQ/EQ2 to make another MMO? Why would they take the dev team from EQ and place it in a new environment? This dev team is the rejects of so many previous failed MMO games. UO, AO, AC, etc. The devs for EQ are still supporting EQ, or they are working on EQ2.
It's funny how you can call this EQ in space, though you have never played EQ. This game is nothing like EQ. Doesn't come close to any aspect of it. Of course, if you played EQ you would know this, instead of spouting the garbage that you did.
Well, I never saw the agreement, but that's definitely interesting. As for why SOE would bother developing this game, well, money for one thing. Why not hire on new developers if Lucas was going to line your pockets with cash to do so? I'll take your word for it that this is incorrect, though I'd love to see a copy of the old arrangement.
Regardless, that's definitely food for thought about Holocron and the developers.Makes me want to make a list of who all these guys are so I know not to go near another game they might be involved with.
As far as the EQ comments go, you're right. I haven't played EQ. I said as much. What I'm basing my statements on are my impressions from what OTHER people have said. But maybe you can enlighten me about EQ. How's it different (aside from the obvious theme differences)? Is it better than SWG? Is it worth switching over to? I'm inclined to not switch to another SOE product personally, but again, that may be a misplaced decision on my part. What I've heard abotu EQ is that it's largely a game where the goal is to advance yourself. The end. It's a game where the grind itself IS the game, and that's not something that really appeals to me. That's how SWG started feeling as well, so I left. Now, if I'm wrong about EQ, by all means, let me know what's different. I'm still willing to play an MMORPG, but I'm really looking for a game where advancement isn't the primary source of entertainment, and actually living IN the world is. SWG couldn't deliver for me on that, which is one of the main reasons why I left.
Solo4114 wrote:
Wayne,
Maybe it was predestined, come to think of it. This was really more of the straw that broke the camel's back rather than a single incident that in and of itself made me want to quit.....
1.) The REST of the game stopped being fun for me. Grinding, harvesting resources, shooting a pistol at stuff, etc. all just got, well, boring and repetitive. The GCW wasn't much of a war, and came across more like a playground fight between angry children, so I couldn't find much content there. I wasn't powerful enough as a fighter to go do things like the corvette, the geonosian lab, or go hunting on other planets. Over time, I just had less and less fun each time I signed on. The rewards were fewer and farther between and what WAS in between was just...dull.
.......
That was a VERY well-written post.. much less angry... much more introspective (all of it, not justthe part I clipped above). And that is exactly what I suspected. The reason I clipped the thoughts above are because they strike very close to home for me. The high irony hereis that the thing thatis finally driving you away (smuggler) is what saved me at one time.There was a time before smuggler and before holocrons when I was only rifleman. I loved rifleman (still do) and didn't want to grind other professions. But like you said, it got "boring and repetitive". I even posted on the rifleman forum asking why I should stay.Then came the Christmas holocron. First one said "Master Smuggler". I ground it rather quickly ... and LOVED it.Yes, the money was nice, but I really liked helping other people and interacting with them. It gave me a new perspective. And it showed me that Rifleman didnt have to be my only love - that my beloved rifle could be my support while I explored the other facets of the game.
Anyway... I completely understand your position, as I have been "close to the edge". And as I said, high irony that Smuggler happened to be the profession that helped pulld me back. Again.. good luck. If you do find the MMORPG out there that delivers the content, be sure and get the word back here....
I agree with you entirely solo. I am however going to stick it out until the end of june when my subscription ends. That way i can see how the dev team screws up the jedi thing, and also see if any good comes out of our revamp. Pardon my negativity but I am tired of being ignored and lied to. Kudos for making a stand and keepin your cash
Jacque Ufaultrades, Master smuggler, ahazi
BTW the devs had better knock my socks off because as of right now there is no way in hell i'm renewing when my time is up. And with my two accounts leaving it will further depleat the declining population on my server.
What are twinks exactly?
The leveling/grinding thing sounds problematic. One thing I NEVER liked about SWG was how hard it was on newbies in a field. Novices get shafted until they level up. There's no real INTRAdependence within a class (as opposed to interdependence among classes). To date, I haven't heard of anyone who came up with a good and worthwhile way to encourage true apprenticeship and mentoring. SWG's method was kind of weak, I thought.
I'm also getting curious about City of Heroes in terms of how they handle these types of mechanics. Anyone sneak into the Public Beta?
- Combat Revamp
- Smuggler Revamp
- Space Expansion News from E3
Since I know that no matter what news we will get about the SE will be media fluff, and that odds are, if they are indeed beta testing the SE, it won't be out until Q4 this year or more likely Q1 2005 (certainly not in june, the EB release date). It's not going to save the game any time soon, that's for sure. unless they push it out half assed like they did the game itself...
I covered my disappointment with the lack of a pistoleer revamp (seriously, 15 specials and only 3 are even remotely useful, and at the same time rifleman gets AP3, every damage type, and working specials that target the mind?)
Now this, the smuggler revamp. I can't begin to express my sadness for the lack of player smuggling. We all knew it would happen; don't kid yourselves. We all knew that we weren't going to get it. Sure, we thought there'd be a big flame war against the devs, that we'd riot in the streets of Coronet yelling at the playerbase (who was the bad guy in most of our minds). We certainly didn't expect the answer to come from Caylin, nor the answer to be "technical difficulties". It's a lame cop-out, if you ask me. And they should have known about this problem, they should have been working on it way before our revamp. They should have said something to us about the infeasibility of a system of scanning at starports for contraband.
They did say. About three weeks before they announced the imperial crackdown, they said that the servers couldn't handle scanning everyone and that such a system would be open to griefing because players are stupid. They told us, and we ignored them.
Thunderheart Said on 12/23/03: "The thing is that smugglers essentially are a "space based" profession (at least the way we think of it)and giventhe inherent client/server limitations, its atough proposition any way you look at. For instance, lets say Imperials do a search for contraband at starports. Can you imagine the lag if we even did an item check for everything inevery player's inventory as they entered and exited a starport? And then there are the guys that run back and forth across that threshold just to lag things out. This is one tiny piece of a larger puzzle. It has to be a cool game mechanic and work in the game system and in a big MMO environment." (from the top 5 responses thread in the smuggler forum)
I don't think he was speaking hypothetically... I think they had probably done some tests and ran it by their logistics people.
He also says that we'd be space based. So, I've been paying for a game, hoping that my patch was just around the corner that would make me a real smuggler instead of a slice puppet. But it wasn't. I was so blind that I ignored this post, even though I read it and remembered it, I didn't believe it.
There's our Official response on the matter. It's about 4 months earlier than we expected it. Now the best we can do is hope for the SE to make us real smugglers. But I certainly won't be paying to wait... not if the site & forums are free for anyone.
Farewell, and May I see you in WoW, where the devs care about the game. I'll be Alytheia there as well.
Sincerely,
Alytheia Talisvera
While TH may have mentioned this, that still doesn't cut it for me. We kept harping on the issue, and no one stopped us to say "Look, it ain't gonna happen. Start coming up with other stuff." Regardless, for months, the devs have been silent with us. We're supposed to be in revamp phase NOW, but all we have is TH's single solitary post saying "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we COULD get that system working?" And that still doesn't change the fact that smugglers were put into a game with nothing to do. We do not smuggle. We WILL not smuggle. the notion that space will solve everything strikes me as a fallacy. Would we be smuggling for players then? Doubtful. The same issues will exist.
What if EVERYONE wants a spaceship? (and they will) Will everyone be scanned all the time? Unlikely. Will there be real choke points to force this? Nope. Why? See TH's December response. Just because we have instanced dungeons flying around from place to place doesn't remove ANY of the issues discussed. And this just goes back to my point. The way this game is marketed and continually sold to customers, the way they keep you playing, is by giving you vague promises that may or may not (probably not) pan out. The method is simple. Dangle the carrot and watch the mule trot. Would the devs bother to explain why it'll be better in space, technologically speaking, than on the ground? Nope. I don't think they'll take the time. I don't think they CARE. And if they do, I don't think they're ALLOWED to talk. Like I said, someone's to blame for all of this. Maybe it's LucasArts, maybe it's Holo, maybe it's Q, maybe it's SOE. I don't know. But I DO know that the customer service and customer relations has been a nightmare, and our profession is Exhibit A in that regard.
Solo4114 wrote:
Re: the hope for an XvT style game
I wouldn't hold your breath. I don't think the engine can really handle it. And to the extent that it can, how can it handle that kind of stuff plus supporting a real smuggling system? If Caylin's notion of instanced dungeons is what ships will be, how will we be dogfighting from within such dungeons? Dungeons fighting dungeons? I just don't see how that'll work technologically, but then again, I'm not a programmer so what do I know. Still, it seems like more vaporware promises.
Heh, I have to hope, it's what excited me and the reason I got interested in this game from the start. The screenshot released in the LucasArts insider newslettergives me hope, but ultimately says nothing of the gameplay.
I wait with bated breath...
Personally, I'd be pleased as punch if LucasArts would release an updated version of ALL the old X-wing/Tie Fighter games, but let you play through the campaigns with or against buddies, the way they did with Balance of Power in XvT. That had to be one of the coolest gaming ideas I've seen. I loved playing missions with my friends in college. Now that there are programs like TeamSpeak, it'd be even more fun to play missions like that.
As for screenshots, well, screenshots and videos don't tell you much about actual gameplay. I remember when Jedi Knight was first announced, and they showed you pictures of Kyle Katarn swinging his lightsabre around dramatically, it didn't indicate that all your moves were pretty basic and that neat-o cinematic move he was doing was just the secondary attack with the sabre. Nor did it indicate that, while it was fun, sabre combat was pretty dumbed down and simplistic (which, I think, is true of pretty much any game except a Soul Blade/Caliber style game as far as melee combat goes).
For all we know, flying could end up being "que up the moves and watch them play out", in which case, instanced dungeons might work fine as ships. But as far as actually controlling things with a joystick....I'm still not convinced. Not that it matters, really. I doubt I'll be back. I'd need to see a shift in developer communication and customer service before I came back. Gameplay alone won't do it for me anymore. Not when you have an ongoing relationship with the company making the game (as opposed to an "off the rack" game where you buy it and maybe get a few patches here or there). I'm still dubious of whether their definition of "fun" is mine, too. Much like Raven Software's experiences with Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, which both left me feeling as if a lot was missing from gameplay, I'm beginning to wonder if the games I envision in my mind are even possible with today's technology.
I mean, can you REALLY create a cool looking and suitably nuanced form of melee combat in a first person shooter? I'm not so sure that you can, unless you end up designing a system where you have to memorize a billion button combos. Likewise, I wonder if you can create a truly immersive MMORPG, given the nature of the market and what it seems to want. Maybe it can be done, but no one seems to be really taking the risky (and potentially initially unpopular) moves in terms of design (IE: forcing interactivity and interdependence, highly encouraging roleplay, creating a game that rewards smarts instead of time committment, etc.).
I'm sorry if my reply came off harsh, it just irks me to hear people blame SOE for the work of Lucas.
It really depends on the game style you like. It's class based, a lot of grinding. It can take you about a month (non stop grinding) to hit lvl 50. But there is stuff to do while you're grinding. There are more zones than there are people. If one zone has a lot of people leveling, there are others you can choose from. There is not a lot of inflation on items, and the content is pretty good. They now have instanced zones for your group, one mission can get you a level andthere's a ranking system. The Pvp is balanced, it basically comes down to how well you play your class. And it's very group oriented. I think that was it's basic down fall. You have to be in a group to go anywhere.
The noticable differences are, 0 wait time. You don't have to wait for a port, or boat to arrive. Each class does what it's supposed to. So many zones you can play in. So many quests, no one has a complete database of them all. Some of the rewards are not that great, but they take time to complete. Almost every NPC you see has something to do with a quest, and loot is great.
I personally wouldn't go back to EQ, the devs in that game seem to be focusing on keeping the old members playing until EQ2 is released. There is no new content for new players. If you pick an unpopular class/race, it will be a lonely grind until you're about lvl 15. All the boats are broken, but you can get around using the book portal system. And there are so many twinks, it's annoying.
Solo4114 wrote:
What are twinks exactly?
The leveling/grinding thing sounds problematic. One thing I NEVER liked about SWG was how hard it was on newbies in a field. Novices get shafted until they level up. There's no real INTRAdependence within a class (as opposed to interdependence among classes). To date, I haven't heard of anyone who came up with a good and worthwhile way to encourage true apprenticeship and mentoring. SWG's method was kind of weak, I thought.
I'm also getting curious about City of Heroes in terms of how they handle these types of mechanics. Anyone sneak into the Public Beta?
I'm in the City of Heroes Beta.
A "twink" is a newbie character running around with advanced equipment that allows him or her to advance faster than he should.
Equipment in City of Heroes consists of Power Enhancements, and you can only use Enhancements that are +/- 3 of your level.
Once the game goes live I'll be The Defenestrator on the Pinnacle server. Feel free to look me up.