Smuggler Archive
Thread: Spice: Smuggle or Craft?
JTGAlpha
Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:43 pm
#40
I still say why divide them? Why make one better or worse? We could BOTH profit equally.
WesBelden
Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:45 pm
#41
JTGAlpha wrote:
But wouldn't it be neat if we had to be interdependant on EACH OTHER? There's still interdependancy in this...I go through the trouble of GETTING the spice, YOU make it. Because a lot of us still do want to do that. We enjoyed it. YOU have a market for spice by obtaining the raw stuff and selling to ME. I final craft it and sell it to the masses.
The problem with this scenario is that, while a few may make deals like this and work together, the majority are going to go out, get the required crafting items, smuggle them to their place of work (more than likely their homes) and craft them themselves, just as we see Weaponsmiths and Armoursmiths taking up master Smuggler in order to put pre-slicedproducts on their vendors.
Ifthere were to be both NPC given and crafted spices it is highly unlikely that they would be of the same quality, especially given the trend so far of making everything player crafted superior toanything else.
It would be a real challenge conceptually to integrate bothin the game. That's part of why I started this thread, to see if the community wants crafting to remain a part ofspices and why. From there perhaps, if the desire is shown, which from a few people it has been,we can come up with a way of integrating themin a way that's feasable for the game and likely to be acceptable by the devs. That way, when the time comes, we can point to the different opinions of the community and show the design solutions that we find apealing and acceptable 
.
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MailekEOC
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:35 pm
#42
Spice should be smuggled into the game via missions. Maybe the potency of the spice could effect the pay out on the smuggling mission, the level difficulty and high risk of visability. This will limit the really good stuff to being rare types of spice, Glitterstim, Deathsticks would be the highest missions.
Using the ideas mentioned in here I think npc factions need to count. In certain cities spread through the worlds there should be Jabba, Valarian, Borvo NPCs hiding in cantinas, in back alleys and maybe some come out only during the night. Beside their names should be (spice dealer) where the players can purchase spice or possibly request a type of spice.
Smugglers can then get missions from NPC (contact). There should be different level of spice missions, depending on how illegal and rare they are and how good you currently stand with that faction.
Also there could be quests involved where a smuggler may have to earn the faction's trust first. It could involve going to a rival's spawned Spice Storage plant, sneaking your way around, slicing the doors open and blowing the place up. Or it could involve intercepting a shipment from a rival, stealing it and bringing it to a dealer npc. Doing these types of quests would give you a big bonus to your rating for that criminal faction but also greatly decreasing the rival's faction.
In the GCW smugglers could get missions from Rebel Spies to infilitrate and steal or meet contact, pickup, deliver weapons to Rebel Recruiters. In turn rebels buy these weapons with their faction points.
I like the idea of combining the Underworld tree with the spice tree. The free branch could be Evasion Tactics, the first box in this tree should give a stealth type skill. As you go up the trees you get a +mod for stealth and + mod for evasion. At the top of the tier should be a skill:
Smuggler's Luck: Increased defense vs knockdown, dodge and run speed but reduces damage output.
Using the ideas mentioned in here I think npc factions need to count. In certain cities spread through the worlds there should be Jabba, Valarian, Borvo NPCs hiding in cantinas, in back alleys and maybe some come out only during the night. Beside their names should be (spice dealer) where the players can purchase spice or possibly request a type of spice.
Smugglers can then get missions from NPC (contact). There should be different level of spice missions, depending on how illegal and rare they are and how good you currently stand with that faction.
Also there could be quests involved where a smuggler may have to earn the faction's trust first. It could involve going to a rival's spawned Spice Storage plant, sneaking your way around, slicing the doors open and blowing the place up. Or it could involve intercepting a shipment from a rival, stealing it and bringing it to a dealer npc. Doing these types of quests would give you a big bonus to your rating for that criminal faction but also greatly decreasing the rival's faction.
In the GCW smugglers could get missions from Rebel Spies to infilitrate and steal or meet contact, pickup, deliver weapons to Rebel Recruiters. In turn rebels buy these weapons with their faction points.
I like the idea of combining the Underworld tree with the spice tree. The free branch could be Evasion Tactics, the first box in this tree should give a stealth type skill. As you go up the trees you get a +mod for stealth and + mod for evasion. At the top of the tier should be a skill:
Smuggler's Luck: Increased defense vs knockdown, dodge and run speed but reduces damage output.
Cloudchasing
Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:09 am
#43
Izhozz wrote:
Smuggle... We are smugglers,not drug dealers. I would like to have special Smuggler Mission Terminals hidden around the galaxy. The Underworld tree could affect the mission payment and difficulty,and what to smuggle,how much of the cargo you could take by yourself etc etc..
/agree
And the devs can't say this is difficult. They already have how many BH terminals up and around. They already have how many npcs around the BHs talk to. BH and Jedi have so much content in this game they could almost reTitle it "Run & Gun" or something.
CorellianCowboy
Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:33 am
#44
All for smuggling the spice from some NPC source. Whether I'd prefer to have the spice make it to other players as part of a smuggler's reward for completing a spice delivery (or the stolen cargo of said delivery) or whether players order the spice from NPCs and smugglers run missions to get it from them depends on the details of either system.
Doc_Rocker
Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:39 am
#45
I have always believed that the smuggling aspect of our game needs to be addressed.. however i think that more fundamental changes need to be made to the overall structure of smuggler.
As a noobo i looked at smuggler and thought, ok i'm just gonna go up slicing, master smuggler doesnt give me any extra slicing ability. i found out that it does and so i'm now a 3/4/4/4 smuggler (sooo close), all the skill trees need to be looked at so that there is no confustion about what skills and certifications you get. for a new player to look at the smuggler skill tree it is quite gutting to look at all the effort that goes into obtaining the underworld tree, for no apparent gain. i realise faction points can be bought/sold.. but i really think this is a waste of time..
Here are my suggestions...
Spices and the underworld skill should be combined.. i like making the spices, espically for people that i know use them.. this is a community, so lets help each other out.
As a smuggler we should be able to use our underworld contacts, so shouldn't we be able to make fake id's etc (this has been suggested elsewhere). How about incorporating all of the suggestions in this thread together.. the higher up the underworld tree you go the higher the level of spices you can obtain from an NPC dealer. this would give u the ability to actually smuggle for people (Jabba, Nym ect), if you wanted you could have the opportunity to purchase the schematics for spices from these ncps for a price depending on your underworld status and skill level, if you had messed up a lot of missions you may only be able to be trusted with lower level spices even though you have underworld 4 for example.. making the spiceswould automatically increase your chances of being detected and thereforemake you more visable to BH's and stormies.
Furthermore, the higher up the underworld tree you go, you get more skills that allow you to use your underworld contacts and exploits.. eg, fake id's, special smuggler weapons/droids/ect and thepurchase of FP and XP??? (smugglers are always cutting corners).
Slicing - we all rant about this.. make it non random, and linked to skill level.. which goes for the tools too.. your using molecular clamps at MS.. why cant you pick what type of slice you want...
i think enough people have expressed the same views on this
Dirty fighting.. i like this.. but i think there arn't enough defence modifiers??
New skill tree.. definately for unarmed combat
i know this deviates from the main thread.. but i do think that smugglers should be able to craft and smuggle spices.. there should be smuggler missions directly linked to spices, i like the ideas that have been posted in this thread, and i do think that just like in the films, if you mess up a mission, a price gets put on your head.. BUT there should be the ability to pay that price off, or replace the merchandisewithin a certain time limit..
Sumggling should be about smuggling which includes gun running, money launderingand possibly also smuggling people.. just like in EpIV..
Lets remember folks were all criminals
Farock
(Bloodfin)
I didn't sell my soul to the devil, i just run guns and drugs for him
JTGAlpha
Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:25 am
#46
Wes that's true, that's a scenario, but the smugglers who band together will ALWAYS produce more spice. There is only so much time in a day. You can go hunting for resources, or you can craft...but you can't do both at once. If a proper balance of difficulty is maintained on BOTH sides then while it'll be possible to do both it will always be more advantageous to do one and let someone else do the other.
TomoRainer
Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:36 am
#47
If I had to choose one or the other--if it were just too complex to work in both, or if there's no good way to create a system wherein both have their uses and would both get sold--I'd definitely go with smuggling spices. After all, we're smugglers, and while I do think there are a number of rogues who would go deeper in the spice trade than simply moving it from one spot to another, our #1 priority should be smuggling.
But that said, I'd really like to see some crafting involved in the process, possibly just as a way of cutting it somehow, but some way to customize it and make it stand out. If every type of a specific item is identical--say, the way spices are now, or houses, or most droids--the market for that item tends to start out okay, begin to slip as undercutters chop each others' legs out from under each other, then crash like drunken Northwest pilots, where they will eventually slip into a stagnant pool of smelly muck. We watched this happen to spices even when people liked Muon and Pixie, way back before buffs and real chef stuff: crates went for 15K, then 10K, then 6K, then you could sometimes find them on the bazaar for 3K, and at that point, are they worth the hassle? Now they're on the bazaar for 6K, due to the fact bazaar limits were raised, inflation's gone way up, and the hilarious trend that so few people want them, most smugglers don't even bother, which actually has lowered the supply.
In light of that, I'm of the firm opinion we need a spice system that, ideally, will have multiple markets, or at least some way of creating real competition between smugglers vying to move product. My preferred system would be an amalgam of acquiring spice from NPCs and then having the option to cut or refine it--similar to DigiDante's recent thread, though I think the mechanics of that can be improved; I think loot farming isn't an ideal solution, as it can get boring if it's too hard to find the items, and if it's too easy, everyone will refine all their spice and there will be no market for uncut stuff. I think, to create a market for both cut and uncut spice, it should be relatively hard to get our hands on the refining equipment--like we have to run another type of smuggler mission to get it, and each mission would only provide a small amount of supplies, like enough to boost up one or two crates. Not enough to easily cut all the spice we get our hands on, anyway. Also, a careful balance would need to be struck between how long it takes to do the missions and how much product we get in return for it--it needs to be worth our while, but not so rich a payoff that one person can meet a vast amount of demand without putting in some significant time.
I am feeling the urge to write an enormous manifesto on how to create a spice system that is fun for smugglers to participate in and allows there to be economic competition beyond whoever's willing to sell their time the cheapest, but it's really late and I need to think on that a while. So to keep it simple: I want both. If I can't have both, smuggling all the way.
But that said, I'd really like to see some crafting involved in the process, possibly just as a way of cutting it somehow, but some way to customize it and make it stand out. If every type of a specific item is identical--say, the way spices are now, or houses, or most droids--the market for that item tends to start out okay, begin to slip as undercutters chop each others' legs out from under each other, then crash like drunken Northwest pilots, where they will eventually slip into a stagnant pool of smelly muck. We watched this happen to spices even when people liked Muon and Pixie, way back before buffs and real chef stuff: crates went for 15K, then 10K, then 6K, then you could sometimes find them on the bazaar for 3K, and at that point, are they worth the hassle? Now they're on the bazaar for 6K, due to the fact bazaar limits were raised, inflation's gone way up, and the hilarious trend that so few people want them, most smugglers don't even bother, which actually has lowered the supply.
In light of that, I'm of the firm opinion we need a spice system that, ideally, will have multiple markets, or at least some way of creating real competition between smugglers vying to move product. My preferred system would be an amalgam of acquiring spice from NPCs and then having the option to cut or refine it--similar to DigiDante's recent thread, though I think the mechanics of that can be improved; I think loot farming isn't an ideal solution, as it can get boring if it's too hard to find the items, and if it's too easy, everyone will refine all their spice and there will be no market for uncut stuff. I think, to create a market for both cut and uncut spice, it should be relatively hard to get our hands on the refining equipment--like we have to run another type of smuggler mission to get it, and each mission would only provide a small amount of supplies, like enough to boost up one or two crates. Not enough to easily cut all the spice we get our hands on, anyway. Also, a careful balance would need to be struck between how long it takes to do the missions and how much product we get in return for it--it needs to be worth our while, but not so rich a payoff that one person can meet a vast amount of demand without putting in some significant time.
I am feeling the urge to write an enormous manifesto on how to create a spice system that is fun for smugglers to participate in and allows there to be economic competition beyond whoever's willing to sell their time the cheapest, but it's really late and I need to think on that a while. So to keep it simple: I want both. If I can't have both, smuggling all the way.
Ragnaat
Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:28 am
#48
I have long had a problem with smuggler as distributor [drug pusher] as well as the idea that spice is "crafted" purely from normally mined materials.
Its been discussed before a bit, and I know I've said a few things about it around revamp time(s), but I'd much rather see a scenario where we are tasked with pickup of and delivery of the contraband that will ultimately be consumed as spice. There are a few interesting systems that can be created to control price fluctations an such as well as availabilty of the goods, but basically involve distinguishing between raw spice (either non-consumable or additive) and then delivery either to NPCs or other players such as docs or chefs.
* Delivering to NPCs via quest - Players would turn to buying spices from NPC dealers that work for criminal organizations. The price of spice would fluctuate with how many smugglers are servicing hat organization (or maybe planet). On the flip side, if smugglers aren't servicing an area (everyone does the tat missions, no one bothers with Nym) the Nyms missions start paying out more. [add other factors added for balance]
* Delivering additives to Chefs/Docs - Based on the idea that a doc can deal on the seedy side and what we're basically talking about are processed foods and stims turn spice into different types of additives that would be smuggler for/sold to other players who would be cooking, packaging, and distributing the spice to their local addicts.
Obviously for either to be worth botherign with, spices have to be worth bothering with and there need to be "roadblocks" or other penalties to haper the moving and sale of such goods.
Its been discussed before a bit, and I know I've said a few things about it around revamp time(s), but I'd much rather see a scenario where we are tasked with pickup of and delivery of the contraband that will ultimately be consumed as spice. There are a few interesting systems that can be created to control price fluctations an such as well as availabilty of the goods, but basically involve distinguishing between raw spice (either non-consumable or additive) and then delivery either to NPCs or other players such as docs or chefs.
* Delivering to NPCs via quest - Players would turn to buying spices from NPC dealers that work for criminal organizations. The price of spice would fluctuate with how many smugglers are servicing hat organization (or maybe planet). On the flip side, if smugglers aren't servicing an area (everyone does the tat missions, no one bothers with Nym) the Nyms missions start paying out more. [add other factors added for balance]
* Delivering additives to Chefs/Docs - Based on the idea that a doc can deal on the seedy side and what we're basically talking about are processed foods and stims turn spice into different types of additives that would be smuggler for/sold to other players who would be cooking, packaging, and distributing the spice to their local addicts.
Obviously for either to be worth botherign with, spices have to be worth bothering with and there need to be "roadblocks" or other penalties to haper the moving and sale of such goods.
Message Edited by Ragnaat on 01-12-2005 09:28 AM
Fernas
Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:35 am
#49
well, i was gonna reply, but, looky there, i'm quoted at the top. nifty. that's a first for me.
anything that tips us closer to smuggling and away from whatever the heck it is we are now is good in my book.
oh, and down with furniture crafting. i mean, what? huh? i think you understand.
Albve
Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:47 am
#50
Well, let me look up at my title here... Nope, doesn't say crafter, it says smuggler.
It's amazing to me that there is even a debate about whether smugglers would want to smuggle or craft. To me, it seems painfully obvious.
IndySWG
Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:04 am
#52
DRWolfe wrote:
Spice would be actually sold through various dealers (NPCs) scattered throughout the galaxy (in cantina back-rooms and other such likely places). A method of making these PC dealers and making PC cities more useful would be to make PC cantina owners able to place these dealers in their cantinas.
Each dealer is linked to a particular criminal group (Jabba, Valerian, etc). Missions are generated by an NPC at the criminal group's base of operations for Smugglers to deliver spice to their dealers (or a cantina owner uses an option on his dealer to place an order for spice to be delivered). If it is only PC cantina dealers, missions should also be generated for NPC deliveries so there are always missions available.
The Smuggler takes the mission and the spice is placed in his inventory via a special container item that cannot be opened (like the supply crate for Whip's Vehicular Control missions). All law enforcement officers in cities (including Imperials) and Imperials in the wilds would do random scans (like the Imperials currently do) and this item would be considered contraband. If this item is discovered in a scan and the scanning trooper is not killed within a certain time, the shipment is lost, the Smuggler's faction for that criminal group is reduced, and possibly the Smuggler generates a little "notoriety" to be placed on the Bounty Hunter teminals. If the shipment is delivered successfully, the Smuggler is paid the mission reward, his faction for that criminal group goes up, and possibly his "notoriety" goes down. The crate is then broken up automatically into however many units of spice were ordered and made available to be purchased from the dealer.
Interesting ... I think this would work well for NPC missions, however if its a player that wants spice why include the NPCs at all?
If a player wants spice why not let them approach the smuggler directly?
For example
- if player_A wants Spice_X he might visit The_Smuggler and ask if he could arrange a delivery.
- The_Smuggler knows that there is a (repeatable) quest (smuggler-only-quest) that will net him 10units of Spice_X.
- player_A wants 30 units.
- The_Smuggler has 10 units so will need to do "the spice run" twice to fill the order ... and quotes a price to player_A as he sees fit.
(This isn't a well thought out idea, I admit ... I just would like to find ways to make THE_SMUGGLER be the PERSON that people go to for contraband ... not some NPC .. I WANT TO BE THE SMUGGLER 
)