Smuggler Archive
Thread: Make sure you are heard no counter to Feign Death!
Rockhurst wrote:
hehe...I wish we could all keep this in the same thread, but oh well. No, my idea would include that the person trying to break FD with the droid/Jedi skill only gets one chance. If the FD Smuggler succeeds, repeated attempts will not break the FD. If the Smuggler is FDed, the smuggler is unattackable and cannot be blackbarred.
But that doesn't prevent them grouping with every friend they have and camping your body indefinately while each person tries their one attempt in turn to counter the feign. If you start looking at all the exploit potential with that, it starts to look a lot easier to just code in feign success/failure rolls with bonuses given to certain classes and skill branches. I like that you and I are on the same page regarding the skill needing to bloody work right as well. I also see a problem that if the bounty mission isn't ended as a result of the feign, the BH is still probably going to camp the corpse forever. And we have to clear the combat flag, it isn't fair to stick someone unable to shuttle, etc.. because they are combat flagged to a faking smuggler.
go take a look at your other post, as well.. I've dropped in the skill-mod ideas there.
GrimRebuke wrote:
Rockhurst wrote:
hehe...I wish we could all keep this in the same thread, but oh well. No, my idea would include that the person trying to break FD with the droid/Jedi skill only gets one chance. If the FD Smuggler succeeds, repeated attempts will not break the FD. If the Smuggler is FDed, the smuggler is unattackable and cannot be blackbarred.
But that doesn't prevent them grouping with every friend they have and camping your body indefinately while each person tries their one attempt in turn to counter the feign. If you start looking at all the exploit potential with that, it starts to look a lot easier to just code in feign success/failure rolls with bonuses given to certain classes and skill branches. I like that you and I are on the same page regarding the skill needing to bloody work right as well. I also see a problem that if the bounty mission isn't ended as a result of the feign, the BH is still probably going to camp the corpse forever. And we have to clear the combat flag, it isn't fair to stick someone unable to shuttle, etc.. because they are combat flagged to a faking smuggler.
go take a look at your other post, as well.. I've dropped in the skill-mod ideas there.
Then lets clear these issues as well, there is only one chance to break FD, if the person who feigns succeeds, combat is over, no matter who feigns successfully it ends the mission aswell, if the smuggler feigned, he is officially dead, so the mission is over and the BH get's paid. It could be done that the BH has to go back to a NPC to get his payment and if the smuggler only feigned, he gets only half the money or something like this. If the BH feigns successfully, he got officially killed by his target, so he failed in the mission but you can't punish a corpse for failure, so no payment and no punishment. If the target gets out alive somehow, for example if there's a time-limit of one week(only time during which both hunter and hunted are online counts) for the mission, then the BH gets on the terminals himself, but he can give the mission up till the 3. day of this time-limit, a massage should tell one hour before the last chance. Is that acceptable for both sides?
true_Kieran wrote:
GrimRebuke wrote:
But that doesn't prevent them grouping with every friend they have and camping your body indefinately while each person tries their one attempt in turn to counter the feign. If you start looking at all the exploit potential with that, it starts to look a lot easier to just code in feign success/failure rolls with bonuses given to certain classes and skill branches. I like that you and I are on the same page regarding the skill needing to bloody work right as well. I also see a problem that if the bounty mission isn't ended as a result of the feign, the BH is still probably going to camp the corpse forever. And we have to clear the combat flag, it isn't fair to stick someone unable to shuttle, etc.. because they are combat flagged to a faking smuggler.
go take a look at your other post, as well.. I've dropped in the skill-mod ideas there.
Then lets clear these issues as well, there is only one chance to break FD, if the person who feigns succeeds, combat is over, no matter who feigns successfully it ends the mission aswell, if the smuggler feigned, he is officially dead, so the mission is over and the BH get's paid. It could be done that the BH has to go back to a NPC to get his payment and if the smuggler only feigned, he gets only half the money or something like this. If the BH feigns successfully, he got officially killed by his target, so he failed in the mission but you can't punish a corpse for failure, so no payment and no punishment. If the target gets out alive somehow, for example if there's a time-limit of one week(only time during which both hunter and hunted are online counts) for the mission, then the BH gets on the terminals himself, but he can give the mission up till the 3. day of this time-limit, a massage should tell one hour before the last chance. Is that acceptable for both sides?
Nice true...I agree. How about something like this:
Rule #1: There is no talking about Fight Club...ha...just kidding...couldn't resist. Long day at work finally coming to an end.
Rule #2: The mark is only attackable by the BH (unless the mark is an overt player) and there's no group tef. Once the player FD, the player is not attackable (i.e. appears to be dead). When the BH clicks on the player,he is still able to issue a Deathblow (but it won't really deathblow the Smuggler).
Rule #3: After #2 is complete, the BH scans the corpse. Upon failed FD Detection/Succesful FD BH receives a message "Mission Complete: Target Appears to be dead"
Rule #4: BH returns to NPC to collect bounty...receives "Mission Failed: Target was not dead" and the mission is removed from the BHs datapad.
Give BH a new skill at master that allow them to see through FD : removes the Feign and make you stand up.
AND
Change FD to make ennemies unable to hit you when feigning (to avoid the BH hitting you until your ham is empty and using his new skill to make you stand up to be able to one shot you)
Everyone's happy
BH got a skill at master to be able to make someone feigning to stand up (if they don't want to invest to master : it's their problem)
No more Grief wil feigning....
We could add a forced peace for 10 seconds making you untouchable after getting up (but unable to attack during the same time).... to avoid lag issues and making you able to respond
BH " stand up you looser, and fight like a brave"
guy "mmm, i guess you see my trick.... let's fight like real men now"
*fight engaging*
No. I'm against "automatic success buttons".
Eulbobo wrote:
copy of my idea on another thread on the FD
Give BH a new skill at master that allow them to see through FD : removes the Feign and make you stand up.
Me too, a chance yes, but no automatic success. We are smugglers, we are the specialists in getting away.
korvass wrote:
No. I'm against "automatic success buttons".
Eulbobo wrote:
copy of my idea on another thread on the FD
Give BH a new skill at master that allow them to see through FD : removes the Feign and make you stand up.
read everything
- Skill for Master bounty hunter
- immunity for you for 10 seconds
- when you feign : no one can hit you any more
We can add a modificator : the more FD skill you have, the more chance you have not to be detected by the master bounty hunter (one use of the skill per feign, and not per time to avoid camping)
Meaning that someone with just 0010 in smuggler tree will have more chance to be detected
If you add the fact that you cannot be attacked while feigning and a small immunity while standing up, i see no "i win" button
BTW, why would it be a "i win" button? (with all previously listed facts)
It's just an idea !
Give more ideas of you have some !
If it was just because of the fact that they could automaticaly remove your feigning ability : ok, see my idea there : skill modificator used for something
Bad side of the skill modificator : that would mean that a Bounty hunter will have a progression in his own skill, so be able to start detecting feign death before master lvl (even if chances are low)
With my solution : only master bounty hunters would be able to see that.
Message Edited by Eulbobo on 10-14-2004 06:38 AM
Eulbobo wrote:
With my solution : only master bounty hunters would be able to see that.
Rockhurst wrote:Nice true...I agree. How about something like this:
Rule #1: There is no talking about Fight Club...ha...just kidding...couldn't resist. Long day at work finally coming to an end.
Rule #2: The mark is only attackable by the BH (unless the mark is an overt player) and there's no group tef. Once the player FD, the player is not attackable (i.e. appears to be dead). When the BH clicks on the player, he is still able to issue a Deathblow (but it won't really deathblow the Smuggler).
Rule #3: After #2 is complete, the BH scans the corpse. Upon failed FD Detection/Succesful FD BH receives a message "Mission Complete: Target Appears to be dead"
Rule #4: BH returns to NPC to collect bounty...receives "Mission Failed: Target was not dead" and the mission is removed from the BHs datapad.
OK, I still like the idea of the success of FD being the factor of determination as opposed to a chance of breaking FD. BUT, this idea could work. There are a few issues.
1. BH are not going to want to fight high-end Jedi alone. Forcing a BH to not be grouped could be very ill-received by that community. They do still have to kill Jedi.
2. The BH skill needs to be a value checked against the Smuggler's FD value. And at Master, the smuggler really needs to have the upper hand in this by a good margin. Again, it is the skill that offsets the "I choose when and where to fight" advantage.
3. The check could be performed at the deathblow action. If the BH is lucky enough to succeed, the BH gets a 10 second delay (Oh my goodness, he's alive!!!) and the smuggler is rolled to standing (to prevent the darned 10 second delay we already pay for standing up from FD).
4. There needs to be some impetus to not abuse this system. If the BH gets half the payout every time, I guarantee you there will be a smuggler and a BH standing next to the terminal all day long taking the mission, attack, feign, collect my cash, rinse, repeat. We also need to consider that Jedi can still FD as can other classes including BH. I don't think using FD should be without some repercussion. Especially for the guy who started the fight in the first place. Like I said, I'm a little hazy on what could be done to punish smugglers. It is easy to balance Jedi/BH... the Jedi gets some XP loss and the BH fails the mission (which is still a small price to pay given the damaged to the Jedi's XP).
A lot of talk goes into the 'I win' button. There is really only one way to make FD an 'I win' button (I used it to grind pistol exp before they changed DoT). But to do it you have to be the aggressor. I don't see a lot of Jedi chasing BH all over the galaxy trying to kill them. I can't imagine a Jedi standing over a BH's body waiting for him to come out of FD. But a BH can lay down two or three hits and if he doesn't drop the Jedi, FD, wait for the Jedi to leave, then stand up and try to get the Jedi again sometime when the Jedi is less buffed or prepared. The BH can never get killed and keep trying till the Jedi gets unlucky. this isn't true for the target, who is more likely to get camped, and who can't run around looking for the BH later on to try and kill him. So, you don't win when you FD. You can only 'win' as a target by ending the mission for the BH.
GrimRebuke wrote:
BH... the Jedi gets some XP loss and the BH fails the mission (which is still a small price to pay given the damaged to the Jedi's XP).
Glad to see 'ya back today. Make sure you check out the other thread on this. But, my responses on this one...
1. Being a M.Pistol/MBH, I don't believe the communities gripe would be that BHs could no longer use gank squads. By-and-large, most BHs that use gank squads do sobecause they aren't competative against moderate level Jedi as a fully ranged BH. Keep in mind that the idea I'm talking about would be post Combat Revamp. In that revamp, I'm assuming that a ranged MBH that spends all remaining points on ranged combat would be competative against a moderate level Jedi...therefore negating the need for group hunting.
2. I agree that when M.Smugglervs. MBH, the M. Smuggler would have the upper hand. By exactly what margin? I don't think either of us can say at this time. It would need to be tested and tweaked during testing to ensure that it's fair for both sides (can't make the margin so large BHs would never finish their missions or finish so few that financially it isn't rewarding).
3. Not sure about the delay. To me, if a smuggler plays dead and fails, he should be game to be attackable and the TEF should return. Why would a BH want 10 seconds to give the Smuggler time to get up before continuing the fight? Like I said, I see FD as a "last resort" (perhaps when the skill is activated it's a passive "wait until health goes below 50 and initiate FD"). So, if a Smuggler's last resort fails, that's about all that's left for them. I would like to see smugglers be given many other skills that could be used to try and evade the BH prior to ever needing FD. Perhaps an adhesive grenade that stops the BH in his tracks for a given number of seconds...or a foxhole skill where the smuggler can literally go underground for a number of seconds (i.e.use an underground tunnel topop out behind a BH)...things like that.
4. I know what you're saying about an attacking party using FD, butI guess I see it slightly different than "if you're the aggressorand you FD you loose the mission". A BH that uses FD is still a smuggler, right? It's part of hisskillset, soit would beputting him at a disadvantage if he couldn't use it. But, look at it this way...if aBH on the offensive uses FD and fails(remember, I'm saying that Smugglers & Jedi would have the detection ability as well) it would make him attackable again, therefore the Smuggler/Jedi would be able to kill him thereby causing him to clone and fail his mission. I agree there needs to be preventions against exploids. That why true & I were saying that the BH, upon a failed DB/FD Check, would have to leave the spot of the FD and return to a lvl3 spynet operative to receive payment. The BH won't know untilhe returns to the Spynet Operative that the mission was a failure because the smuggler wasn't dead. So, no 'partial payments' for getting fooled by a FD (BH still failed the mission, bottom line). Even if the BH wanted to camp the corpse to see if the Smuggler was really dead, the TEF would be removed so the BH couldn't re-attack the target. Even if the target was an overt player, if the BH was also overt of the opposing faction and killed the Smuggler it wouldn't count towards a successful mission since the mission has been "bugged" by the successful FD. OR, as an alternative/addition, give the smuggler at the time of successful FD the option to clone at the nearest cloning station without penalty (no decay/wounds)...therefore the BH REALLY doesn't know if the target was killed or not.
Message Edited by Rockhurst on 10-14-2004 09:46 AM
zazo wrote:
Here's my response to them:
um lemme see you want to nerf feign death becuase it is such an uber manuver?
oh no wait that cant be true
Maybe its because the over powered smuggler already has a plethera of skills in his abilities catalogue to call upon at will.
eh no no that just sounds silly doesnt it
Oooohhhh you dont care about smugglers feigning death but you want to nerf a skill that the jedi have found yet one more way to exploit their way to uberdom. The problem you face is not with the skill it is with the calibre of player that power gamed their way to jedi. Some how the honor has been lost on the profession by the gamers that choose to persue their skills by any means necessary. The ends do not justify the means.
Lets find a way together to balance this profession that doesn't actually belong here without nerfing skills of an already borked profession.
This isn't about nerfing, we are talking about a solution where we actually get away with a successful feign and do not get black bars, read it first before you complain.