Smuggler Archive
Thread: My take on the whole BH/Jedi/Smuggler thing-- And my suggestion to the Devs
Mythor wrote:
Royal? Whatever.
Yes, I meant "everyone", as in the majority. Not minorities that prefer to see the gameplay be destroyed for the majority.
Your last comment pretty clearly shows you know enough about the BH/Jedi system to know how much of an absolute crapstorm it is.
How can including Smuggler in the crapstorm be a good thing for us?
How is it better than actually being able to smuggle things?
It has nothing to do with whatever silly vision of "bravery" people hold most dear. It has everything to do with "Player vs Player" not cutting it as "content".
PvP "content" exists - Special Forces in the GCW.
I had thought that most Smugglers would prefer to push for actually being smugglers. I would not have thought most pine to have exploits used against their characters on a daily basis.
Which is precisely what will happen if player bounties on smugglers were implemented. Trying to flip that off as "whiny Jedi" is absurd.
It sounds like you'd be better served becoming a Bounty Hunter or a Jedi.
I just hope that they dont pull Smugglers into the crap that is Jedi/BH, we need no more nerfs.
I play two separate characters, a Smuggler and a Jedi. Mind you, when I came to this game I wanted to play a smuggler/pilot, Jedi was a cool idea but I had little clue as to how it would work.
I dont believe Jedi should win all the time, not at all. But I am sorry Wes and Tanks, we are not on the terminals due our stupidity now. Its nessesity, there is no way to make decent xp without giving in to visability. I can make in 10 minutes the same amount of Xp on my smuggler that it takes me hours of godd@mn grinding with my Jedi. Practically every fight I have had has ended up with me dead, all a BH has to do is outlast my Force Pool. Which is easy.
Jedi just need a chance to win, or fight back fairly, all I am seeing is the same general lumping of all Jedi together into the whining 'I need to win' catagory.
All I would like to see is for the whole thing to be less one-sided, if it wasnt maybe you would see less running. You lose nothing if we kill you.
Funny how I wouldnt mind having BH's come after my Smuggler if it is just a no-xp loss situation, I think that some of the ideas for chosing high risk smuggler missions that may get you on the terms would be a version of PVP that I could get into. I just dont want it to be another situation where only one side wins like it is now.
Mythor wrote:
Do you really think the all powerful Empire's first response to a Smuggler would be to give 30,000 credits to the first BH who kills them?
I know the Empire is evil and all that, but even so...
Their first response would be to inform local law enforcement, or the local Stormtrooper regiment, etc. None of which are controlled by players.
Bounty Hunters hunting Smugglers, if implemented, would have to be for habitual offenders that law enforcement isn't managing to deal with. It doesn't make sense for them to be called in immediately, if they're going to be called in at all.
I think that if player bounties were ever introduced, they would follow the "deadbeat" system that was explained in the In-Concept board. This way, smugglers would have to be habitual offenders to get bounties placed on them. We would also know that if we got that fifth deadbeat point, we would have a player bounty hunter come after us.
JoahSaett wrote:
I want to know how the hell Smugglers got mixed up in all this in the first place, did someone somewhere start a thread to nerf last ditch?? I really hope not, last ditch has saved me several times already.
I just hope that they dont pull Smugglers into the crap that is Jedi/BH, we need no more nerfs.
I play two separate characters, a Smuggler and a Jedi. Mind you, when I came to this game I wanted to play a smuggler/pilot, Jedi was a cool idea but I had little clue as to how it would work.
I dont believe Jedi should win all the time, not at all. But I am sorry Wes and Tanks, we are not on the terminals due our stupidity now. Its nessesity, there is no way to make decent xp without giving in to visability. I can make in 10 minutes the same amount of Xp on my smuggler that it takes me hours of godd@mn grinding with my Jedi. Practically every fight I have had has ended up with me dead, all a BH has to do is outlast my Force Pool. Which is easy.
Jedi just need a chance to win, or fight back fairly, all I am seeing is the same general lumping of all Jedi together into the whining 'I need to win' catagory.
All I would like to see is for the whole thing to be less one-sided, if it wasnt maybe you would see less running. You lose nothing if we kill you.
Funny how I wouldnt mind having BH's come after my Smuggler if it is just a no-xp loss situation, I think that some of the ideas for chosing high risk smuggler missions that may get you on the terms would be a version of PVP that I could get into. I just dont want it to be another situation where only one side wins like it is now.
Yeah.
Mythor wrote:
Do you really think the all powerful Empire's first response to a Smuggler would be to give 30,000 credits to the first BH who kills them?
I know the Empire is evil and all that, but even so...
Do you really think the all powerful Empire would be offering the bounties?
Smugglers are criminals who take contracts from other criminals. If a smuggler screws up enough contracts for one criminal, I'd think the criminal in question would offer the credits for the smuggler's capture/death, not the Empire.
Y'know. Kind of like how Boba Fett took a bounty hunter mission to capture Han Solo for Jabba the Hutt in ESB. Only when the Empire says "Actually, we need this guy, too," did he bring Han to Vader - and in that case, they only wanted Han so they had bait for Luke's capture.
Mythor wrote:
Do you really think the all powerful Empire's first response to a Smuggler would be to give 30,000 credits to the first BH who kills them?
I know the Empire is evil and all that, but even so...
Their first response would be to inform local law enforcement, or the local Stormtrooper regiment, etc. None of which are controlled by players.
Bounty Hunters hunting Smugglers, if implemented, would have to be for habitual offenders that law enforcement isn't managing to deal with. It doesn't make sense for them to be called in immediately, if they're going to be called in at all.
Of COURSE I don't suggest having a BH/copssic'd on you as soon as you pick up a shipment of spice. I'm guessingyou haven't read the suggestions in previous revamp threads. What you have described is exactly what people were asking for--a deadbeat system where you would have to screw up/run off with cargoseveral times before you would get a BH called on you. Again, this would be totally optional--a tiered system, where you can take high-risk missions with a greater reward, or lower-risk missions and get rather less. It ain't FORCED PvP, but if you want the good stuff you are going to have to face that risksooner or later. At the moment there is a small law-enforcement angle, where Stormies scan you for illegal goods, but it's crippled to the point of being, well, pointless.
Smuggling isn't dodging Bounty Hunters. It isn't dodging forced PvP. It's carrying certain goods to places where those goods are illegal, or attempting to take goods via a route that lets you avoid tax collectors, etc. You can't have player BHs/"Police" patrolling everywhere all the time just in case a smuggler is trying to smuggle something. And "busting" them when they're not doing anything illegal would get silly.
NPCs have no such issue. They can be spawned dynamically, whenever, wherever. They can be specifically tailored to the smuggler in questions level. They can even spout appropriate "flavour" text when attempting to arrest the Smuggler.
Smuggling may not benecessarily involveavoiding BHs, but itDOESinvolvedodging law enforcement. And when the local police force is ineffective, whynot call in Bounty Hunters?
Whynot get busted even if you're not doing something illegal at that moment? Ever seen wanted posters? And just like cops don't stop everyone on the street and frisk them, this would not be a constant thing either. But if you pass within sight of a Stormie, for example, then he might recognize you as a wanted person. Of course, if you were careful, you wouldn't be recognized anyway.
You say NPC BHs could be avoided? Gee, why didn't I think of that? Yes! Let's implement a system where Smugglers are hunted fugitives, AND THEN GIVE THEM NO WAY TO ESCAPE! Yay! Yay! let's oversimplify and be sarcastic!
Of *COURSE* the Smuggler should be able to escape from whatever "enforcement" is sent after them. What you just said is no different to rooting a Player BH and running away. What possible motivation is there for a Smuggler to fight if he/she doesn't need to? Getting their goods where they need to go (or getting away from them once they're delivered) should be the Smugglers goal.
There is a huge difference between trying to escape from a player BH and trying to escape from an npc. First, a player will not break aggro when you get out of sight. Second, where annpc willuse default attacks and the strategy we all know and love (stand there and take his beating), a BH can show up when the smuggler ismost vulnerable, take out the smuggler's ride, learn the smuggler's hangouts and wait for him, etc.
Fighting for a smuggler is a last resort. If they're doing their job right, the fights should be few and far between. I agree with this. And the best way to avoid these fights is by taking care to stay off the terminals.
NPCs are far better suited to the task than other players. If too many smugglers are evading law enforcement by using concussion shot, then the devs can throw a wrench into the works by having law enforcement officers being issued brand-new anti-concussion armour, to fight the "growing smuggler threat!" Etc. Bleah, throw anti-concussion armor into the game and all the Jedi will be crying for it.
NPCs don't have to play by the same rules we do.
And running won't do a darn thing if law enforcement is staking out the delivery area and locks you inside the house while they make the bust? LOL! That would be cool, and I haven't seen it suggested yet.
None if it really gets around the base problem though - forcing PvP on Smugglers will only lead to grief. Again, it's NOT FORCED. Where do you keep getting this idea? It would beavailable for those who want to go that route. If you're careful, it will never happen. In a nutshell, rip off some small time hustler andget a bad reputation. Rip off Jabba the Hutt or an Imperial Colonel, and you can expecta professionalto come after you. And to anyone who says they should be able to enjoy high-level content without any of the risks, tell that to the Jedi.
As for the "FedEx" reference. Um, that's precisely what a game generated Smuggler mission would likely amount to. "Take this package, see it is delivered to Person X, on Naboo."
The difference would be you would have to avoid stormtrooper and local police patrols, since they could call in backup. And random sweeps of starports for contraband. Ship scanning. Etc. I did agree that it would be FedExish. And what you are suggestingwould bethe risks associated with lower-level smuggler missions, or for smugglers that have no 'deadbeat points'.
Being "discovered" carrying contraband by law enforcement and then simply being added to the BH terminals is patently ridiculous. That is a very poor way to uphold the law and it would be a poor implementation of the new smuggling system. Again, it would take a lot more than just getting caught once with a shipment of spice to get on the terminals. Get caught carrying the plans for a new Imperial weapon prototype, and you can be sure someone will put a price on your head.
Fine. No-one is talking about forced PvP. Merely some optional content which includes a risk of PvP. Optional. As in "you choose whether or not you want to do it".
Next time you feel inclined to speak for a whole community, it might be wise to check their opinions in this forum - THE representative outlet - first.
It ain't forced PvP, except for when it is forced PvP?
Riiiiight.
Second, where an npc will use default attacks and the strategy we all know and love (stand there and take his beating), a BH can show up when the smuggler is most vulnerable, take out the smuggler's ride, learn the smuggler's hangouts and wait for him, etc.
An NPC is just as capable of waiting for the Smuggler's health to go below a certain level before appearing. They're more then capable of destroying vehicles. They're more than capable of working out which starport is closest to a player and spawning out the front to wait for them... They can knockdown, concussion shot, kneecap, startle and more, just like players can.
They can be above level 80, which is something players can't do for balance reasons!
Bleah, throw anti-concussion armor into the game and all the Jedi will be crying for it.
It's anti-concussion "armour". Since you can't read between the lines, the NPCs sent after Smugglers would get an innate chance to resist concussion shot. The "flavour" reason behind it would be that the various types of police got issued with some new armour, but it would not truly be armour.
Regardless, why shouldn't Jedi receive it? What does that have to do with the Smuggler profession? That's not our concern. Smugglers don't hunt Jedi, Bounty Hunters do.
Again, it's NOT FORCED. Where do you keep getting this idea? It would be available for those who want to go that route. If you're careful, it will never happen. In a nutshell, rip off some small time hustler and get a bad reputation. Rip off Jabba the Hutt or an Imperial Colonel, and you can expect a professional to come after you.
Where do you keep getting the idea that "professional" must equal "another player"?
Why can't I rip off some Imperial scum who then has a Stormtrooper regiment waiting outside the place I really delivered the Imps goodies? Or rip off Jabba and have, ooh, I don't know, BOBA FETT come after me?
Or any of the other great Bounty Hunters if I've done something particularly bad.
Those are things that other players can't do. They can't be "famous", they can't be more than one person, they can't be above level 80...
Players exploit the system. Players whine when they think the system is out of balance. Players ruin skills for the PvE game because they're "imbalanced" for PvP play.
From RichardBryant: Next time you feel inclined to speak for a whole community, it might be wise to check their opinions in this forum - THE representative outlet - first.
Next time you feel inclined to reply to me, actually read my replies first.
I asked if forced PvP was what Smugglers were intending on pushing for. I would not have thought the majority of Smugglers were so phenomenally stupid as to want their profession to descend to the same busted-ass mechanics as the BH/Jedi gameplay.
If I am wrong, that's perfectly fine!
I'd just like to know NOW, so I can be sure to respec away from Smuggler before the changes make it into the game.
The things being spouted by Mought seem to indicate that I am indeed wrong. If the pathetic implementation Mought is envisaging is what the Smuggler community actually wants, I am well and truly gone.
Mythor wrote:
It's anti-concussion "armour". Since you can't read between the lines, the NPCs sent after Smugglers would get an innate chance to resist concussion shot. The "flavour" reason behind it would be that the various types of police got issued with some new armour, but it would not truly be armour.
Maybe where you're from it's armour, but over here it's spelled armor. Same with flavor. No need to flame someone over regional differences in spelling, ok neighbor? (not neighbour)
Oh, and maybe you could try to add some color (as opposed to colour) to your posts to differentiate between yourself and who you're quoting.
No, really.
The quotes were to indicate that the "armor" is "flavor", not literal "armor", since the point was missed. It was not a spelling correction, as should have been evident from the later instances not being similarly contained within quotes.
If the spelling "correction" was a "flame", I would not have been so obtuse about it. I would have just pointed out the correct spelling. As I did when correcting an actual error by Thunderheart. I'm well aware that American removes the "u" in assorted words like that. That is not the case where I live, so I typically spell it with the "u" purely out of habit.
I'll apologise for the misunderstanding right after you apologise for the condescension.
I could add colour to the quotes, however using italics serves the same purpose, the HTML is simpler and thus less prone to mistakes, and again we get back to habit.
If there's a simple [quote] type tag I am unaware of, let me know and I'll use that instead when I want to quote multiple sections of one comment. The only method I'm aware of is the laborious blockquotes, which aren't practical for repeated quoting of one message.
An isolated, italicised, comment is usually pretty clearly someone earlier in the thread, so I would not have thought it too hard to follow.
If it is, then I'm sorry. I will try to make it more clear if/when I post in the future.
Obviously a PvE opponent would provide a different kind of challenge to a PvP opponent.
But to blithely label PvP as flat out "harder" all the time in every circumstance is absurd. It isn't.
Different kind of challenge? Certainly. More likely to adapt to circumstances? Sure. But not inherently more difficult.
Ways PvE content could be "balanced" to provide a similarly challenging gameplay experience as PvP:
- "Hunters" that are beyond the level cap of 80.
- "Hunters" that possess skills beyond the 250 SP limit of players.
- "Hunters" that possess weaponry with damages beyond those players can have.
- "Hunters" that can perform moves/abilities players could not in the same circumstances.
- "Hunters" with higher Health values.
- "Hunters" with better Armour than players.
- "Hunters" with higher movement speeds.
- "Hunters" with vehicles (that have higher Health/speed than player vehicles).
- "Hunters" that can "warp" to catch up if a player moves to a range that might cause a "despawn".
- "Hunters" in groups greater than 1. Or 2. Or 20.
- "Hunters" with larger Force pools.
- "Hunters" with higher regen rates.
I could go on if you'd like?
The point is that many other factors besides the opponents "skill" or "brainpower" go into deciding whether a fight is challenging. The most skilled Novice Marksman in the game would get soundly trounced by a Jedi Master who didn't know how to use anything but the basic lightsaber "attack" skill.
It wouldn't matter that the Jedi was being controlled by a rather stupid player. An AI would just as easily have won. An AI would probably have done it even easier, in fact.
Same as a highly skilled player would not be overly troubled by a Level 82 hunter coming after them, whereas a lesser skilled player would get squashed.
If it turns out that everyone is finding the 82's too easy, fine! Bump it to 83. 84. 85...
Would you find that as interesting as fighting another player? Perhaps not. If bumping the opponents level is the devs idea of balancing it, I'd even agree with you.
But don't try and claim that PvP encounters are always harder. That is a facet of game design, not an incontrovertible fact. PvE elements can always be made far harder to defeat than an "equal skills" encounter against a player.
Whether you (or I, or anyone else) would find that as interesting is another matter.