Smuggler Archive
Thread: Keepin' da Jedi Down
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
- Cons
- Jedi will continue to be a 'clique' and will not be considered as a normal part of the player base. There will always remain a division between the 'normal' professions and the Jedi. That is not healthy for building a community for a game. I consider this a pro. And considering they get a free character, the development team likes it this way. One character Jedi, the other character your normal community chracter.
- The economy will continue to go haywire as players try different things to see what causes force sensitivity. Buffs and armor are the cause for problems with the economy. People running solo groups. Jedi contribute to the problems with the economy because they contribute nothing.
- Jedi will continue to be treated as a minority, open only to those who dedicate great amounts of their time doing things in game. They SHOULD be a minority. Pro!
- Those who are casual gamers and play maybe a few hours a week will in all likelihood, never achieve Jedi status and be embittered by it as they don't have anything to gauge their progress. Not everyone should be a Jedi. This is a pro. Everyone achieving Jedi is a con.
- Casual gamers who bought the game believing they would at least have a chance at getting a Jedi in a reasonable time frame (A few months of solid gameplay against a year or more) will be disillusioned the longer the process is mysterious. Pro. Jedi should not be the goal of the game for anyone.
- Interesting content will seem forever out of reach for many of the player base who play to enjoy a game and work toward goals. There is plenty of other content. Heck, alot of the content is ruined by people simply going for Jedi even with a known path (before silent holo). They won't simply change around, unlock the Jedi, then enjoy the game. They'll go to ignoring all content for the sake of Jedi progress. Those who do not know the path are more likely to go out and experience the real (read: non-Jedi) content in an effort to unlock.
- Mindless activities will continue by those looking for the solution to their force sensitivity over actually enjoying the game. This contributes to a feeling of 'wasted time' should the player ever discover what the true process was. No player likes to think that their time was wasted. If it is unkown, then they will usually give up after a while or stumble upon something they like. And once Jedi being publicly visible starts to decline it will be like pre-holocron, where only a few where doing it.
- Mysteries will be solved, then plotted out until they no longer remain mysteries. Rendering many hours that were used to that end, largely pointless. Time that could have been utilized into making the process involving and content rich will go towards making it 'mysterious' instead. Simply making it mysterious does not require effort. To make it known you have to do more (publicizing the path being the difference). Dynamic switches will more likely be there regardless.
- Players who have been told their progress in grinding professions would be remembered, will have no idea where they stand in the new system. This contributes to a feeling of despair that is not healthy for the continued subscriptions of many players who don't want to feel as if they are starting from scratch. (+1 discontent among the much larger, non-Jedi playerbase.)
- Players will always be asking if the way to being Jedi was nerfed or changed if they don't get it at the point they are led to believe they should. Edited: reread this statement. People ask alot of things. They think alot of things are nerfed. You really can't say something is a pro or con upon the public's blind opinion of what they feel they should have. I can understand the point of people being unsure of the state of their progress, but like I said earlier, Jedi should not be the point of this game. Downplaying the path would help promote that.
Message Edited by RazaelDemron on 07-12-2004 03:37 PM
Raanan wrote:
You know... this discussion would not be happening if the devs decided on a pre empire or post empire time... As it is, they chose a time which is NOT conducive to this type of game so GET OVER IT. Jedi are the most well known thing about Star Wars. Even those who have never seen the films (yes there are some) know Jedi. You really expect there to be no jedi or limited jedi without some arbitrary limit to the number of them? Please, this is a game. Not only that but it's a game typewhich requires long running time to be profitable.
You forget that it's also an MMO. You demostrate the point that Jedi area point of focus when thinking of Star Wars. When it comes to MMOs everyone should be equal and a specific subset of the playerbase does not deserve to have that focus over the rest.
Now, don't get me wrong. It'd be damn cool seeing a player Jedi once in a blue moon. But, once they get to the number of population where they are no longer rare they lose that magic. It becomes an offense to Star Wars.
Message Edited by RazaelDemron on 07-12-2004 03:51 PM
I don't know, I know they had to add Jedi into the game to make it Star Wars. I just wish it'd be more limited, they'd kept the permadeath and maybe waited to develop a Jedi path for another year, until AFTER JTL and all the other professions were fixed and the game was running along smoothly. I wouldn't have minded seeing the first Jedi show up around this coming Christmas if so many other aspects of the game were working properly beforehand.
Raanan wrote:
And implementing a system where only an elite few ever have the chance of being a subset fosters equality? I didn't forget it's mmo. I'm fully aware it's an mmo. It's because it's an mmo as well as star wars I hold the opinion I do.
Jedi and Star Wars go hand in hand. You can't say jedi without thinking of star wars and you can't say star wars without thinking of jedi. The story is about a jedi. Taking the jedi out would be like eating a twinkie with no cream filling. The main focus of star wars has been and will always be, jedi. You can't get rid of that focus. That being said, there still needs to be an equality with the rest of the player base. What do you think the purpose of the twofold revamp is? You people use this two patch revamp as evidence of inequality when it comes to jedi. Well that is a total bunch of bs. The devs recognized a problem the pursuit of jedi was causing with the game, decided to revamp it, and since they were already dealing with things jedi, decided to revamp the entire thing and bring it more inline with the game. It's very simple really. You just have to look at the big picture instead of your particular stroke in the painting.
KaiRan wrote:
Maybe I wasnt clear, but I dont think casual gamers ruin the game. I do however feel much has been altered by the development team, and not neccissarily for the better, in order to give casual gamers a better chance whencompared against the "power gammers" towards a common end. I count myself among the "casual gammer" crowd, and by no means feel that my style of play is ruinous to the overall health of SWG. I also dont neccissarily condemn the "powergamer" style of play either, though I understand that is how I often come off as it is often in conflict with my style of play and desire for immersion.
That being said, I dont dissagree with you're overall sentiment: Those who play for the simple enjoyment of playing will continue to do so, unhindered by the concerns of those who are actively seeking upper-level content. But then... that's realy not who this thread was originaly for.
I don't believe content has been altered by the devs to give casual gamers a better chance. In fact, I believe much of the team's efforts have been focused on making changes to the game because of the power-gamers. The most recent dungeons added to the game are definately power-gamer oriented, and the Corvette was made more difficult because of power-gamers. Many other game changes were due to the actions of power-gamers as well.
I don't begrudge the power-gamers their fun, but I do not believe the game should be made harder or goals made to take more time just because a subset of the gaming community might get it done quicker than intended. For example, If a series of quests is "supposed" to take a month, it should not be made to take three months, just because the power-gamers will plow through it quicker than the "average" player. If it should take a month, then they should make it so that the "average" player will take a month to coplete it. If the power-gamers do it in two weeks, that's their problem, and it's them who then complain that there is no content. There is content, just don't be so quick to finish it all off.
Continuing with the original theme to this thread, I do not believe that casual gamers should be penalized by the devs in making the quests to become a Jedi unattainable in a reasonable amount of time. Yes, Jedi should not be in this time period, but they are. The game has evolved and so must we in our attitudes. To make the quests nigh impossible now would be to alienate a large portion of the player base and infuse even more hatred of the Jedi in the game because it makes them an "elite" clique, when all they did was grind professions until the magic "ding" rather than actually playing the game and making themselves a part of the community.
Since Jedi are part of the game, everyone should be afforded the same chance to obtain that character slot, no matter their play style, or the amount of time that have to play. We all pay the same amount each month to play, so we all should be treated equal.
I must disagree with RazaelDemron's opinions that all of Caylin's Cons were Pros. All of what you called "Pros" if they were made so, would just make that "special" clique, and there should be no such thing. Everyone's monthly fee is equal, so we are all equal. The fact that Jedi were to be in the game was stated on the box, and there is no reason anyone should have thought their population would not rise. They should still be mostly not seen, therefore maintaining the illusion of a small Jedi population, but that has changed. Nothing we can do but adapt. And keeping others from getting something in the game just because some people think this should be "rare" is not acceptable.
I believe there are two kinds of people who do not want more Jedi in the game. Those who are sticklers for Star Wars "cannon", which any MMORPG must evolve beyond, and those who already have a Jedi and want to be "special". Again, the game is evolved, and everyone who pays their monthly fee are equal.
/agree
DRWolfe wrote:
I don't believe content has been altered by the devs to give casual gamers a better chance. In fact, I believe much of the team's efforts have been focused on making changes to the game because of the power-gamers. The most recent dungeons added to the game are definately power-gamer oriented, and the Corvette was made more difficult because of power-gamers. Many other game changes were due to the actions of power-gamers as well.
I don't begrudge the power-gamers their fun, but I do not believe the game should be made harder or goals made to take more time just because a subset of the gaming community might get it done quicker than intended. For example, If a series of quests is "supposed" to take a month, it should not be made to take three months, just because the power-gamers will plow through it quicker than the "average" player. If it should take a month, then they should make it so that the "average" player will take a month to coplete it. If the power-gamers do it in two weeks, that's their problem, and it's them who then complain that there is no content. There is content, just don't be so quick to finish it all off.
Continuing with the original theme to this thread, I do not believe that casual gamers should be penalized by the devs in making the quests to become a Jedi unattainable in a reasonable amount of time. Yes, Jedi should not be in this time period, but they are. The game has evolved and so must we in our attitudes. To make the quests nigh impossible now would be to alienate a large portion of the player base and infuse even more hatred of the Jedi in the game because it makes them an "elite" clique, when all they did was grind professions until the magic "ding" rather than actually playing the game and making themselves a part of the community.
Since Jedi are part of the game, everyone should be afforded the same chance to obtain that character slot, no matter their play style, or the amount of time that have to play. We all pay the same amount each month to play, so we all should be treated equal.
I must disagree with RazaelDemron's opinions that all of Caylin's Cons were Pros. All of what you called "Pros" if they were made so, would just make that "special" clique, and there should be no such thing. Everyone's monthly fee is equal, so we are all equal. The fact that Jedi were to be in the game was stated on the box, and there is no reason anyone should have thought their population would not rise. They should still be mostly not seen, therefore maintaining the illusion of a small Jedi population, but that has changed. Nothing we can do but adapt. And keeping others from getting something in the game just because some people think this should be "rare" is not acceptable.
I believe there are two kinds of people who do not want more Jedi in the game. Those who are sticklers for Star Wars "cannon", which any MMORPG must evolve beyond, and those who already have a Jedi and want to be "special". Again, the game is evolved, and everyone who pays their monthly fee are equal.
On the one hand, you have the power-gamers. While they are a much smaller population of players, this segment probably holds an equal number of accounts to the casual-players due to the reliance on alts. So economically, it's probably near a wash for SOE.
Content wise though, the decision has to be either moderately difficult for the casual-gamer, which in turn is likely too easy for the power-gamer, leading power-gamers to become bored and find a new game to player. Or else, the content has to be moderately difficult for power-gamers, which is then practically impossible for casual-gamers, leading to frustration and the casual-gamers cancelling accounts.
Is there actually a way for the devs to create a compromise, with both sides being satisfied that their desires are met? I hope one of you can enlighten me, cuz at this point I don't see how they can keep everyone happy without making everyone miserable.