Smuggler Archive
Thread: The Lack of Announced Player Based Smuggling Missions
NickHeel
Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:37 pm
#27
I already PM'd Tiggs and asked her if we could get some clearification on player to player Smuggling. Whether that is being worked on (simply yes or no) or what have you.
So, maybe like the thing where I got her to announce that "yes" we were being worked on (design process at least)...I can get her to announce whether Player to Player Smuggling is in the works in some form 
/crosses fingers 
SpinningCloud
Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:47 pm
#28
You all know that I agree completely that player smuggling is the ultimate in smuggling content.
I think, though that I've seen enough of what they're doing with the game to realize that the mechanics of player smuggling will require player inconvienience. THAT seems to be something they are trying to avoid lately.
The only whay we'll be needed to smuggle for players is if they put in mechanics, such as scans at spaceports, that will inevitably inconvienience the player base to a point they need to pay us to perfor services for them. That, I don't think, is going to happen.
I'd like to see GCW incentives for joining one side over the other but that would require the same thing; insentives and inconvieniences to be gained and overcome by having your side win.
Sony just isn't in a spot to inconvienience it's playerbase like that, hence the move to shorter and shorter shuttle waits and buff waits, etc..
I won't watch this opportunity go by and wait indefinitely again. Am I selling out? Maybe but it's take this or quit for good.
SpinningCloud
Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:36 pm
#29
Nick, you know me at least I think from my post history.
What they're planning is good...good enough to keep me around should it be implimented by end of July latest.
Keeping me around means I'll be right in there fighting for what we all know NEEDS to be done...player-player smuggling.
I hope that all of us would keep that effort up, even after getting what it looks like they may give us.
NickHeel
Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:43 pm
#30
SpinningCloud wrote:
Nick, you know me at least I think from my post history.
What they're planning is good...good enough to keep me around should it be implimented by end of July latest.
Keeping me around means I'll be right in there fighting for what we all know NEEDS to be done...player-player smuggling.
I hope that all of us would keep that effort up, even after getting what it looks like they may give us.
I know...I know, man 
Sorry I snapped on you.
Sorry I snapped on you.I would rather start fighting now and voicing our opinion for actual Player Smuggling rather than letting this slide and complaining afterwards.
Caylin got to see the overview from the C-Forum that we didn't get to see which apparently did mention them wanting to bring out the P2P Smuggling we're wanting. But, them saying they want to do something and then actually doing it is 2 different things. Caylin also voiced our opinion in the Correspondant Forum about us wanting the P2P Smuggling and I'm sure Wes did too.
SpinningCloud
Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:49 pm
#31
I'm going to give them my self-imposed two weeks of smiley face then start pushing on the shortcomings while being positive on the things we're getting that we've always wanted.
I have the same concerns you do Nick...that they'll think all is well and leave things as they stand.
It needs to be clear that we do NEED player to player smuggling. That IS the interaction that will make smuggling and make it part of the GCW and not our own private mini-game.
NickHeel
Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:51 pm
#32
SpinningCloud wrote:
[snip]
I have the same concerns you do Nick...that they'll think all is well and leave things as they stand.
It needs to be clear that we do NEED player to player smuggling. That IS the interaction that will make smuggling and make it part of the GCW and not our own private mini-game.
100% correct
I know everyone's on the same page.
However, I think a lot of people, especiall the ones that came along in mid '04 are in shock with the "OMG they're revamping us! And look at this cool stuff!" and they think I'm trying to argue to take it away if we don't get P2P Smuggling. Which isn't the case.
Give us what they posted then add to it with cool things like Fake IDs, the POB ship things, combat stuff, and other cool tricks as well as Player to Player Smuggling contracts
Message Edited by NickHeel on 03-11-2005 10:56 PM
TomoRainer
Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:14 pm
#33
Player-to-player smuggling is extremely tricky. I'm not about to give up on it, but I do think it may have to be limited in scale to ever be brought into the game--smuggling GCW-influencing military equipment, illegal items in story arcs, or basically any new items that haven't already been absorbed by the playerbase. Regularly inconveniencing events, such as scans at every starport, may well be impossible to bring into the game for the reasons Spinning laid out: SOE's making the game quicker and more convenient, and constant contraband scans for "everyday" items like sliced guns is a direct contradiction of that goal.
The way I look at it, the concept docs are a great start, and it's probably wisest to get all that stuff in the game while we work on a way to involve player-based smuggling. I'd certainly hope that once they've spent the big effort of getting smuggling up and running they'll be willing to spend the lesser effort to come back to add more in a relatively quick timespan.
The way I look at it, the concept docs are a great start, and it's probably wisest to get all that stuff in the game while we work on a way to involve player-based smuggling. I'd certainly hope that once they've spent the big effort of getting smuggling up and running they'll be willing to spend the lesser effort to come back to add more in a relatively quick timespan.
NickHeel
Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:55 am
#34
I can't believe I'm actually going to write this. I love that we're finally getting some info and lots of it. But, I'm disappointed at what it is. Please read this entire post before throwing up the wall, I think I have some very valid points. Also, remember what I said in the last paragraph starting "In closing,".
From the Publish 9 failed revamp that we threw back at the Devs because there was NO Smuggling for other players or contrabandscans that meant anything:
"We are in the midst of putting together the design doc and looking at the alternatives now. The current plan to increase the fun-ability of the Smuggler Class is to enhance the existing skill onion. Since the communities focus is the desire to increase smuggling, the focus of the revamp will be on the underworld tree. We want to start with specialized delivery missions that provide both monetary and itemized rewards, but also special favors from the travel system NPCs. This would make smugglers an important hub in smuggling people from place to place by helping them get around the 10 minute Star Port wait, generate some cash flow and create a real value for Smugglers. The other edge of that sword is that tying into the travel system and creating new missions is a huge effort. Once that is accomplished, we will tweak the spices (and hopefully add a couple of new ones). After that the priority hits the Smuggler’s melee abilities. We want to increase the smuggler’s ability to use melee to move in and around superior forces and be able to work his or her way out of a tough spot. We can also further tweak the Smuggler’s combat role in the combat balance. That’s a pretty good overview of the current approach.
Ethical decisions that effect the smugglers reputation (basically, the new smuggler missions would be XP based and focused on…well…smuggling So the smuggler would have to “smuggle” phat loot from one NPC to another without getting caught and if the smuggler chose to deliver the item, the get the XP. If they didn’t, well, it would be an XP hit, but they would keep the item…)"
That sounds a little bit too much like what was posted today for my liking. Ethical decisions? No player based Smuggling? No optionalPC bounties. No contraband checks worth anything. I'm rather disappointed in the Smuggling aspect of this. Travelling to point A to B to C while NPCs harass me is fine.
But this bothers me and it's the reason that ElectricNomand and Solo4114 quit: It's not what we've asked for. We've been specifically trying to get player Smuggling and contraband checks. What was posted today, in my view, was a copy and paste job from the pre publish 9 job from May of last year.
I submit to you the arguement by Solo4114 (paraphrased): These missions will be fun as far as Smuggling for the first few days. Then they'll get stale. Why? There's no player to player interaction. We're stuck in our own little corner.
Now, granted, we're supposedly able to grab Spice from these missions instead of crafting it. Awesome, something most of us actually did as for. But, once again, after a while, this seems like the only reason I would do these missions...to sell spice. And while that'd be a nice side gig, I'd really rather be Smuggling for other people.
In closing, I would like to say that I appreciate the Devs givings us some idea of what to expect. But I'm rather upset that they didn't work with us like they promised and nohint of player based Smuggling was mentioned. I'm glad that this was stated that it COULD change because I sincerely hope it does. I do not want to be stuck in my own little corner away from other people playing with NPCs all day...except when I want to sell spice or slice something. I want to Smuggle with and for other people.
I hope information on that and contraband scanning and restrictions are to come.
Thanks. *brings up his shield to protect him from all his long time friends in here...*
Message Edited by NickHeel on 03-11-2005 04:19 PM
Rhu
Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:09 am
#35
Okay, so let's not create situations where players are involuntarily inconvenienced as possible matters for player smuggling.
Instead, we can focus on coming up with areas where players make concious decisions to get themselves in trouble. I'm just coming up with this scenario off the top of my head, here, and I know I've seen proposals along these lines before, but:
Jojo the Chimpandawan gets stopped by a regular CorSec patrol and scanned. Iarserev Runningwind (a CorSec Private) says, "Please pay a fine of 20000 credits for that highly illeagal bananamboo you have!" He is faced with dialog options to pay or fight. If he pays the fine, (a minor inconvenience) he suffers no faction loss with CorSec and flies back to Dantooine to kill a few gerbils to make back what he lost. If he chooses to fight, he takes a heavy faction hit and has to wave his banana around.
When his faction gets to -5000 it becomes locked there. No ammount of meatlumps will improve his rating, and he occasionally has to fend off elite corsec forces when he is on his way to talk a doctor into filling him full of drugs for a dozen grand. Since he doesn't know how to fight when he is off the drugs, he's in trouble, because those elite forces tend to make him stare at the sky and contemplate why the image designers of the universe make everyone look like they are rejects from boy bands or perhaps ballets far too often for him to be comfortable with himself. He also heard thathis knife-fightingfriend had bounty hunters after him after he defeated his 10th elite force. He defeated two so far, and is getting nervous that he might have even more dangerous hunters coming after his banana... So he pops over to the cantina and talks to the shady guy in the corner.
The shady guy tells him that the only thing to do for this situation is to drag him over to Corsec headquarters (a dungeon mapwith multiple points of entry, the private docking pad provides somewhat easier access than the main shuttle terminal, which is in turn easier than the footpath leading to the fortress).He hands Jojo a disguise that a tailor friend made for him in the eventthat a situation like this would ariseand hetakesJojo aboard his freighter. They arrive at thecorellia space station and request permission to land at headquarters. He can either have gained access to HQ through a mission sequence or he might be trying to get in on a bluff. The bluff might be called in the latter case and he'll have to send Jojo to a turret while he flies like a madman in an attempt to stay alive long enough to calculate a place to land at the HQ.
Let's say, though, that he didn't have to fight in space in order to land at CorSec headquarters. So he and Jojowaltz in and try to pass themselves off like they belong there without anyone getting a good look at him, but someone stops him at a security checkpoint. He tries to bribe, intimidate,or otherwise convince the security guard to let him through and may or may not end up withaburning hole in his chest.
Either by firefight, wits, or providence, the smuggler arrives at the appropriate terminal and commences slicing. "By the way," he says, "What got you in so much trouble with the cops?"
"my b4n4n4 lol"
"Your price just doubled. And before you say anything, think of how much trouble it took me to get you this far. And consider also that I'm with the union..."
Once the transaction is completed and the appropriate record sliced to reflect Jojo's new and improved -2000 status, the only thing that remains is getting out... And a rather risky download of a new CorSec CDEF Carbine schematic that a bounty hunter contact of his might be interested in.
Yeah, so it was hacked together and resembles in some ways about a third of a movie we all watched once or twice. I know some of you have something that can top this... Anyway, the point of the matter (without the useless narrative)is this: By refusing to pay a fine or just by slaughtering local police as bystanders (I know I've fanned down my share of RSF) a player has voluntarily got themselves in a bad situation that may be more than they bargained for. A smuggler will have to get them out of it.
Message Edited by Rhu on 03-12-2005 04:19 AM
Ramsey_Lanclo
Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:50 am
#36
Rhu wrote:.......Okay, so let's not create situations where players are involuntarily inconvenienced as possible matters for player smuggling.Instead, we can focus on coming up with areas where players make concious decisions to get themselves in trouble. I'm just coming up with this scenario off the top of my head, here, and I know I've seen proposals along these lines before, but:............
If this experience you just described could be HALFWAY fulfilled... I would weep openly for a day.
BRILLIANT POST!!!
-rl
Orcajum
Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:44 am
#37
Ok, I'm going to appologize right from the beginning if this is jumbled and messy or makes little sense and because i'm sure i'll be babbling soon. I'm tired, it's 2am, but I have to get this idea out before it goes south on me. If it doesn't make sense or someone sees problems with my logic or concepts, let me know or ask for clarification or something.
Also, let me begin by saying that I think the proposed changes are excellent (especially the slicing interface.) While it's not exactly what we've been hoping and praying for, it's a start and that's something. But with that being said:
I honestly thing, given a few tweaks (tweak perhaps being an understatement) this proposed Smuggling experience COULD, become more interactive.
Personally, I've always felt that the idea of us moving people's sliced weapons and personal spice around was a little small-potatoes to be considered "P2P Smuggling." It would be a start, no doubt, but i always invisioned more. And what always came to me was either taxed-resources or high-end loot, like Kryat Pearls being moved off Tat.
Anyway, Tiggs mentioned that there would be a multitude of Smuggled goods we would be moving for our contacts. Imagine if you will that some of these goods would constiture VERY exclusive, high-quality crafting resources. We're talking military-grade, unspawnable, resources. These resources would be highly desirable by most crafters, but in extremely limited supply (I'm not a crafter, but say 200max units per shipment).
In addition to adding these resources as Smugglable goods, we refine the duties of our Smuggling contacts. For us Smugglers, they would be our gateway to receiving missions. For other players, they could act as mini NPC-bazaars, basically an Underworld goods Fence. (with the apparent elimination of our Spice-tree, the Fence title is up for grabs.) Anyway, a portion of the goods we are contracted to deliver would then appear on this Fence's listing, and would be available for purchase by crafters looking for a resource edge.
Of course, not all crafters use the same materials. And if the desired resources could not be found on the Fence's listing, many crafters would probably contract with Smugglers to find and deliver their desired resources.
Let me give you an example:
My friend the Weaponsmith is looking to make an even more powerful Geo blaster for his client. He thinks by using a small amount of Military-Grade (MG) Copper he can increase the performance of the weapons. He goes to the local Fence to see if there is any MG Copper in supply, but alas there is none listed. So my friend the Weaponsmith asks me if I can poke around and deliver some MG Copper (with of course an upfront monatary deposit for my trouble). I scour the galaxy, from one Contact to the next to see if anyone is shipping MG Copper. Finally I find one and take the job. Now it's time for my decision. Do i complete my task, delivering the MG Copper to the appropriate location where the Fence can sell it to my Weaponsmith friend? Or, do i pocket it myself, eliminate the Fence middleman (accepting my deadbeat points) and sell it directly to the Weaponsmith for a much larger profit?
To me, the only question mark for development would be creating these Underworld Fences. I don't know of our NCP Contacts could be coded to act as mini-bazaars (though I suppose it's similar to the options Faction Recruiters already have). Beyond that, it's simply a matter of making some of our potental Smuggled goods be very-high-end resources and we're set. Since there would be very few of these resource types and in a very limited supply, i don't see us stepping on the Miner's toes (especially since everything is done with harvesters anyway.) And best of all, i think we'd actually feel like we're working for players by utilizing the NPC Smuggling system. We'd be wanted and needed and a valued part of the dynamic economy. And we'd start making some serious creds too
Anyway, let me know what you think. If this is a possible way to impliment P2P Smuggling within the environment they've just proposed. If this should be developed further, posted somewhere else, or just the ramblings of a mad man at 2am
Also, let me begin by saying that I think the proposed changes are excellent (especially the slicing interface.) While it's not exactly what we've been hoping and praying for, it's a start and that's something. But with that being said:
I honestly thing, given a few tweaks (tweak perhaps being an understatement) this proposed Smuggling experience COULD, become more interactive.
Personally, I've always felt that the idea of us moving people's sliced weapons and personal spice around was a little small-potatoes to be considered "P2P Smuggling." It would be a start, no doubt, but i always invisioned more. And what always came to me was either taxed-resources or high-end loot, like Kryat Pearls being moved off Tat.
Anyway, Tiggs mentioned that there would be a multitude of Smuggled goods we would be moving for our contacts. Imagine if you will that some of these goods would constiture VERY exclusive, high-quality crafting resources. We're talking military-grade, unspawnable, resources. These resources would be highly desirable by most crafters, but in extremely limited supply (I'm not a crafter, but say 200max units per shipment).
In addition to adding these resources as Smugglable goods, we refine the duties of our Smuggling contacts. For us Smugglers, they would be our gateway to receiving missions. For other players, they could act as mini NPC-bazaars, basically an Underworld goods Fence. (with the apparent elimination of our Spice-tree, the Fence title is up for grabs.) Anyway, a portion of the goods we are contracted to deliver would then appear on this Fence's listing, and would be available for purchase by crafters looking for a resource edge.
Of course, not all crafters use the same materials. And if the desired resources could not be found on the Fence's listing, many crafters would probably contract with Smugglers to find and deliver their desired resources.
Let me give you an example:
My friend the Weaponsmith is looking to make an even more powerful Geo blaster for his client. He thinks by using a small amount of Military-Grade (MG) Copper he can increase the performance of the weapons. He goes to the local Fence to see if there is any MG Copper in supply, but alas there is none listed. So my friend the Weaponsmith asks me if I can poke around and deliver some MG Copper (with of course an upfront monatary deposit for my trouble). I scour the galaxy, from one Contact to the next to see if anyone is shipping MG Copper. Finally I find one and take the job. Now it's time for my decision. Do i complete my task, delivering the MG Copper to the appropriate location where the Fence can sell it to my Weaponsmith friend? Or, do i pocket it myself, eliminate the Fence middleman (accepting my deadbeat points) and sell it directly to the Weaponsmith for a much larger profit?
To me, the only question mark for development would be creating these Underworld Fences. I don't know of our NCP Contacts could be coded to act as mini-bazaars (though I suppose it's similar to the options Faction Recruiters already have). Beyond that, it's simply a matter of making some of our potental Smuggled goods be very-high-end resources and we're set. Since there would be very few of these resource types and in a very limited supply, i don't see us stepping on the Miner's toes (especially since everything is done with harvesters anyway.) And best of all, i think we'd actually feel like we're working for players by utilizing the NPC Smuggling system. We'd be wanted and needed and a valued part of the dynamic economy. And we'd start making some serious creds too
Anyway, let me know what you think. If this is a possible way to impliment P2P Smuggling within the environment they've just proposed. If this should be developed further, posted somewhere else, or just the ramblings of a mad man at 2am
akd23
Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:52 am
#38
Orcajum wrote:
Ok, I'm going to appologize right from the beginning if this is jumbled and messy or makes little sense and because i'm sure i'll be babbling soon. I'm tired, it's 2am, but I have to get this idea out before it goes south on me. If it doesn't make sense or someone sees problems with my logic or concepts, let me know or ask for clarification or something.
Also, let me begin by saying that I think the proposed changes are excellent (especially the slicing interface.) While it's not exactly what we've been hoping and praying for, it's a start and that's something. But with that being said:
I honestly thing, given a few tweaks (tweak perhaps being an understatement) this proposed Smuggling experience COULD, become more interactive.
Personally, I've always felt that the idea of us moving people's sliced weapons and personal spice around was a little small-potatoes to be considered "P2P Smuggling." It would be a start, no doubt, but i always invisioned more. And what always came to me was either taxed-resources or high-end loot, like Kryat Pearls being moved off Tat.
Anyway, Tiggs mentioned that there would be a multitude of Smuggled goods we would be moving for our contacts. Imagine if you will that some of these goods would constiture VERY exclusive, high-quality crafting resources. We're talking military-grade, unspawnable, resources. These resources would be highly desirable by most crafters, but in extremely limited supply (I'm not a crafter, but say 200max units per shipment).
In addition to adding these resources as Smugglable goods, we refine the duties of our Smuggling contacts. For us Smugglers, they would be our gateway to receiving missions. For other players, they could act as mini NPC-bazaars, basically an Underworld goods Fence. (with the apparent elimination of our Spice-tree, the Fence title is up for grabs.) Anyway, a portion of the goods we are contracted to deliver would then appear on this Fence's listing, and would be available for purchase by crafters looking for a resource edge.
Of course, not all crafters use the same materials. And if the desired resources could not be found on the Fence's listing, many crafters would probably contract with Smugglers to find and deliver their desired resources.
Let me give you an example:
My friend the Weaponsmith is looking to make an even more powerful Geo blaster for his client. He thinks by using a small amount of Military-Grade (MG) Copper he can increase the performance of the weapons. He goes to the local Fence to see if there is any MG Copper in supply, but alas there is none listed. So my friend the Weaponsmith asks me if I can poke around and deliver some MG Copper (with of course an upfront monatary deposit for my trouble). I scour the galaxy, from one Contact to the next to see if anyone is shipping MG Copper. Finally I find one and take the job. Now it's time for my decision. Do i complete my task, delivering the MG Copper to the appropriate location where the Fence can sell it to my Weaponsmith friend? Or, do i pocket it myself, eliminate the Fence middleman (accepting my deadbeat points) and sell it directly to the Weaponsmith for a much larger profit?
To me, the only question mark for development would be creating these Underworld Fences. I don't know of our NCP Contacts could be coded to act as mini-bazaars (though I suppose it's similar to the options Faction Recruiters already have). Beyond that, it's simply a matter of making some of our potental Smuggled goods be very-high-end resources and we're set. Since there would be very few of these resource types and in a very limited supply, i don't see us stepping on the Miner's toes (especially since everything is done with harvesters anyway.) And best of all, i think we'd actually feel like we're working for players by utilizing the NPC Smuggling system. We'd be wanted and needed and a valued part of the dynamic economy. And we'd start making some serious creds too
Anyway, let me know what you think. If this is a possible way to impliment P2P Smuggling within the environment they've just proposed. If this should be developed further, posted somewhere else, or just the ramblings of a mad man at 2am
I like this idea, and by keeping the amounts of material available low, it will only be used in the single crafted weaponsm not large factory runs (where the resources mined by everyone with spare lots goes).
The only thing I'm not sure if is having non-smugglers use the contacts as a mini-bizaar, it might be better to keep the contacts smuggler only, and have the crafter come straight to the pc smuggler to ask whats available on the black martket.
WesBelden
Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:55 am
#39
Thought you might be interested in what I wrote specifically about this when the documents were posted in the Correspondent forum;
"However, there is one comment that Imust make (which no doubt you were expecting to be made) and that is this systemlacks involvement with the rest of the playerbase; the primary desired form of such an interactionby the entire Smuggler community is that of smuggling goods for players, with a secondary desire for bounty hunters to be able to hunt down those that break their contracts (much like the NPC BHs do in this system).
Is there any scope for this within the Smuggler upgrade? if not, will there be scope for this in the future, as part of another publish or expansion? I must ask these questions, because they will be the first and foremost on the lips of every Smuggler."
Still waiting for a response on this.