CUEmu - Thread Posts

Solo4114

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:31 am

Ipseck wrote:

My point was that it's still crafter light, because we only have to worry about 1 resource 1 quality once every 4 months if you put in the effort to drop 3 or 4 harvs. And as your math showed, even the lazy smugglers (combat profs can still drop harvs) are making nearly 300% profit per slice. The ones that put in the extra 4 hours a month are making more. Whats so wrong with that? We're not going to end up playing resource monkey for just 1 resource. That's absurd. I think people are letting their experience w/ other crafting professions skew their view.

As someone who's become pretty familiar with the crafting lifestyle, and especially in a profession where experimentation and resource quality matters A LOT (weaponsmith), I can tell you conclusively that smugglers have it easy and would likely continue to have it easy.

As long as the schematics introduced (since I'm advocating for my new schematics plan) didn't require NAMED resources, and only required either a particular mineral (copper) or a class of minerals (non-ferrous), we'd be PERFECTLY fine.

Yes, it sucks having to watch SWGCraft or sign on to your server, and first thing pull up your survey tools to see what new resources have spawned on your planet. Yes, it REALLY sucks having to be both a miner and a crafter, but believe me, if the tools we made had the same general range of resource requirements as we do now, or even if they required slightly more intensive resource requirements (IE: copper, plus aluminum, plus fiberplast, but still no named resources) we'd be JUST fine. Given the extraction rates of harvesters, if you find a good spot (70% or better), even with a 2BER extractor, you're in VERY good shape. Plop that sucker down on a spawn, let it sit for a week, keep it well fed with power and cash, and you'll have easily some 50K worth of whatever resource you were pulling. I did that once with plumbum iron and walked away with almost 60K worth of the resource. I've used, traded, or sold 12K of that by now, but that remaining ~48K will keep me in very good shape as a weaponsmith when I get around to using it. That was one week's worth of harvesting. That's it.

Trust me, harvesting in THIS profession is not a big deal. If you want to see a real pain in the ass profession, check out weaponsmith. You need a TON of named resources AND you need 'em in good qualities. You HAVE to watch SWGCraft like a broker, unlike people who just need "copper" or "aluminum" or "sedimentary ore".

Now, experimentation IS bad when done badly, as is the case in weaponsmithing. But, if done well, experimentation could be quite useful and could reward hard work with concrete results. Once you learn how crafting WORKS, as long as your resource requirements aren't too stringent, it's not that hard to make good quality equipment, IF you're willing to put in the time to do the harvesting. If you don't want to spend the near 30 points on Surveyor, you can always find a surveyor who's willing to mine for you, or who's willing to sell you a location of good quality resources. I've done both for people and they were perfectly happy to pay. It saved them time and effort and it made me money. A workable solution all around.

You don't HAVE to go and be a surveyor, though it helps cut costs (at the expense of your skill points). Still, if you're putting those 29 points into, say, another combat profession, you'll be able to make more money running combat missions and will be able to pay for your resources.

Hell, I'm grinding weaponsmith, and I haven't even bothered harvesting steel (for grinding) in quite some time. I just run enough survey missions to buy crap quality steel from my local vendor ('Course, I'm a Surveyor too, so....). Still, the "run missions to pay for your stuff" method works just fine. Probably better if you're doing combat missions on the advanced planets.

Greatsails

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:37 am

#28

Kav wrote:

What compitition will there be when some one out there will be selling the "uber" tools to everyone. We will all end up with the same tools per server in my opinon.

Well, that's the necessary consequence. Sure, Architects have "competition," but they still all sell the same BER 13 heavies that they all sell. The only thing "competition" introduced was the BER 11 and 12 heavies that you can buy for a song if you please, because an architect is as likely to just destory it than try to pass it off on their vendor at a reduced rate.

We're saying the same thing, from different angles. Bottom line: experimentation won't add real competition, it will just create the illusion of it. Maybe that's substantial enough for these who approve of adding experimentation.

-----
Seelvir: Master Smuggler, Master Dabbler
N'rocinu: Master Doctor, Master Tailor, Novice Scout.
Maribel: Master Artisan, Master Architect, Dancer 4-0-0-0, Musician 4-0-0-0 (for the buffs, of course)

Wale

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:43 am

#29

If you want to experiment on items.....become a crafting class....Smugglers are NOT a crafting class...We HOT-WIRE weapons and armor for better performance at the cost of condition of the item...We should be able to do this with what ever quality tools we can get....the skill is in the knowledge ofslicing not how great your clamp is at telling you blue or red...or that super-duper lazer knife that cuts the wire...thats all it does...cuts the wire.....how can a great quality knife cut the wire any better to create a better slice....Think about it...Its not Swoopbike Science.....Its illegal activites of hot-wiring items for suped-up performance that dont last as long as the original design....

Experimentation in spices makes more sense...not that I am for this either

Wale....Master Smuggler.....and if you all get your way....Novice Crafter of Experimented Items that Should Not be Experimented on

( well if I experiment on my butter knife I should be able to make a better PB&J sandwichs...right? )

Greatsails

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:52 am

#30

Dinian wrote:

They aren't going to camp your vendor and ignore the BER12s and wait for the elusive BER13.

Wanna bet? I move BER 13's by the dozen. I move BER 12 misfires like I was selling ice to an eskimo.

Having a chance at better slices be in YOUR control is a good thing.

Agreed. Lets just add a dialogue box that lets me pick speed/damage. We'll keep the % of the slice a random event, with Masters 5% higher on average and at the extremes.

The cons:

You will have to watch for high conductivity copper.

Wow that's really hard. What's the problem again? Really?

Like I mention above, it only introduces the illusion of competition. if your concern is competition, then experimentation isn't the way to go. if your concern is control of the slice, then experimentation isn't the way to go. Either way you look at it, experimentation isn't the way to go.

-----
Seelvir: Master Smuggler, Master Dabbler
N'rocinu: Master Doctor, Master Tailor, Novice Scout.
Maribel: Master Artisan, Master Architect, Dancer 4-0-0-0, Musician 4-0-0-0 (for the buffs, of course)

Dinian

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:58 am

#31

You misunderstand me, I know people ignore your BER12s. Hell I did, and still will in the future

My point is that smugglers don't have this problem. Our final product was sold when somebody asked us to slice something.

The equivalent would be only paying for slices that are 33% or higher out of 35% and if we could somehow factory produce 35s.

This is a different business model.

Dinian :: Master Swordsman - Teräs Käsi Master - Force Adept
Retired producer of fine weapons for Kong Technologies

ChrystalRhayne

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:59 am

#32

I totally agree with Wale

Long Live the Emperor

_________________________________________________________
Monsoon Rhayne - Jedi & Imperial Pilot
Jayden Mavericson - Smuggler & Freelance Pilot
Chrystal Rhayne - Trader

Greatsails

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:59 am

#33

Greatsails wrote:

Dinian wrote:

They aren't going to camp your vendor and ignore the BER12s and wait for the elusive BER13.

Wanna bet? I move BER 13's by the dozen. I move BER 12 misfires like I was selling ice to an eskimo.

The point to that isn't to debate Architect issues, but rather to demonstrate the mentality that pervades the gaming world. People only want uber, and are willing to go to great personal expense and inconvenience to achieve it. If that means passing up on an inferior slice to get an uber slice, then so be it. As Kav points out, experimentation doesn't breed competition at all, it only looks like it does, cause in the end, all slices will still be the same as all other slices.

-----
Seelvir: Master Smuggler, Master Dabbler
N'rocinu: Master Doctor, Master Tailor, Novice Scout.
Maribel: Master Artisan, Master Architect, Dancer 4-0-0-0, Musician 4-0-0-0 (for the buffs, of course)

Greatsails

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:11 pm

#34

Dinian wrote:

You misunderstand me, I know people ignore your BER12s. Hell I did, and still will in the future

My point is that smugglers don't have this problem. Our final product was sold when somebody asked us to slice something.

The equivalent would be only paying for slices that are 33% or higher out of 35% and if we could somehow factory produce 35s.

This is a different business model.

It's only a different business model if your customer is different. But it isn't. You tell me: will you slice your own weapons with low quality tools? Of course not. You ignore BER 12s, and you also ignore poor quality slices. Only the rarest customer will be satisfied with a slice done with substandard tools. But note the word there "substandard," implying that the best quality is the standard. It will be.

Your customer *will* ask if you're giving him the best slice possible. Your tools are experimented to 90%, but Smuggler Joe, 2 clicks away, has 99% tools. You now have 2 choices: you lie and get his business, or you tell the truth, you don't have the best, and he doesn't even say "kthxbye!" before he leaves you in his dust.

It's not different. You only think it is because that's what seems logical. Adding real customers to the mix will break down all logic instantly.

-----
Seelvir: Master Smuggler, Master Dabbler
N'rocinu: Master Doctor, Master Tailor, Novice Scout.
Maribel: Master Artisan, Master Architect, Dancer 4-0-0-0, Musician 4-0-0-0 (for the buffs, of course)

chown2

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:12 pm

#35

Dinian wrote:
You misunderstand me, I know people ignore your BER12s. Hell I did, and still will in the future

My point is that smugglers don't have this problem. Our final product was sold when somebody asked us to slice something.

The equivalent would be only paying for slices that are 33% or higher out of 35% and if we could somehow factory produce 35s.

This is a different business model.

So, do you plan to lie when people ask you the quality of your tools? What if the only tools you're able to make are 70% due to the quality of the available resources?

Master Chown Darkcloud Smuggler

"I have a gaderiffi and a stun but no gaffi sticks. Sorry" - Chown

bpphantom

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:25 pm

#36

100% Wale.

No experimentation on slicing tools. Which I think even Kav agreed on.

Most people on the survey replied "B, with certain qualifiers". Most of which broke down to "B, as long as nothing changes but we get better slices." (always some thinking of the larger picture, not saying everyone replied in such a tone).

In all honesty... how do we even know slicing will still bea part of the "New Smuggler"? If they're making slice and spice contraband could it be just to reduce and eventually eliminate it altogether. Less pain but longer suffering.

Spice is an entirely different story... deserving of yet another thread of it's own.

---
Imperial Colonel Istovyr Ousstyl - Lone Survivor of Gothica City - Rori - Lowca
Still the best darn smuggler there is.

Ragnaat

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:25 pm

#37

I still have yet to see a slicing proposal that works in what effect thes uber tools will have on the end product. I see lots of claims from folks who want differentiation or a marketing tool, and I enjoyed reading solo's post, but can someone please show me some ideas for scheme for how slicing would change with the addition of experimentation? I'm having serious trouble envisioning such a system that would allow for experimentation on tools as well as gradual improvements through skill gain and not amount to a nerf (e.g. current slicing levels only achievable via only the very best tools). What are we as smugglers (or you, because I'm not) lobbying for here?

:: Retired... For the moment ::
-I support going slow and being careful.
focus thread (n.): there for us to focus on while they went behind our backs and did whatever they wanted to, anyway. (Source: AngusMacGregor)

Dinian

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:37 pm

#38

I will be perfectly honest with my customers.

Listen, I get business slicing -- sure -- but so do (Slicer)s. They are a model for people that don't believe that there is still business in non-maximal slicing.

Also, if they walk away because I had 90% tools (which I won't -- Slicing is my favorite part of the profession and I'll work hard as possible to maintain my reputation as one of the best slicers in my galaxy) I would tell my customers as much.

People don't pay me 50k to slice their Krayt Scatter. They pay me 50k because I give it back to them after the slice

Dinian :: Master Swordsman - Teräs Käsi Master - Force Adept
Retired producer of fine weapons for Kong Technologies

Kav

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:41 pm

#39

also, only about 3-5 archys on my server manage to make BE13+ most have only BE12 and are suffering from it.

BUT this is entierly diffrent.

That is a case of a crafting class making advanced items with several experiemented sub-componants and hard to find high quality materials by the thousands.

Laser knives are simple and have small material consumption. They will be easier to mass produce and sell "the best". which means some one will want to do just that, open a smuggler shop with the best, and make 3-6k for a crate of good knives, and most of us will pay it, i mean come on a crate of knives is alot of slices.

So in the end the only compition will be Smuggler shops undercutting each other.

Kav::~~Master~~ Smuggler::
Beul::Engineer::
"Credibility is like virginity, you can only lose it once."

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Thread: The Debate: Slicing Experimentation