Smuggler Archive
Thread: Those Devs really hate Neutrals
SmugglinZane
Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:59 am
#27
My argument about neutral NPCs is to show that Tyrant, and the rest of his team, need to find a new argument. Do I seriously think they're putting in content for neutral NPCs, no! It's to illustrate a two part fallacy on their part.
1. THEY have gone outside of the GCW by now including neutral factions. If they can included neutral parties with NPCs, why is it so important to pick a side? I'm just trying to point out that their own actions and designs make their dismissive response to everything that's been asked totally asinine.
2. I really want people to understand a couple things about these changes and the future of this game for anyone. Star Wars is NOT the GCW, nor is the GCW all about the factions.The GCW is a mjor part of it. It is the catalyst that moves the movies along. There is sooo much more to Star Wars than that. Now we're looking at major publishes that are devoted to pushing more people into factions. They have not said whether or not this is the actual GCW revamp that was supposed to happen, but I assume it's not. So what does this mean? Neutrals are being forced into an even more meaningless and alienated category. We have the CURB and then the non combat profession revamp. The only revamp/major publish that still exists is the GCW revamp. What this means is that neutrals will continue to pushed aside. Not only that, but everyone seems to think a criminal faction would eliminate the problem and they are hoping for an underworld revamp. That will change nothing since there will still be people who want to remain neutral.
If they want to make the game more like Star Wars, then good for them, and I can't wait. If they want to make the game more like Battlefields, I'd like them to let us know because there's more to Star Wars than that. You say these changes are meant to make the game more like Star Wars. I say these changes make it more like a game. Star Wars was dynamic and ever changing, these changes are stagnant and make the game more one dimensional.
Ryutek
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:12 am
#28
SmugglinZane wrote:My argument about neutral NPCs is to show that Tyrant, and the rest of his team, need to find a new argument. Do I seriously think they're putting in content for neutral NPCs, no! It's to illustrate a two part fallacy on their part.1. THEY have gone outside of the GCW by now including neutral factions. If they can included neutral parties with NPCs, why is it so important to pick a side? I'm just trying to point out that their own actions and designs make their dismissive response to everything that's been asked totally asinine.2. I really want people to understand a couple things about these changes and the future of this game for anyone. Star Wars is NOT the GCW, nor is the GCW all about the factions.The GCW is a mjor part of it. It is the catalyst that moves the movies along. There is sooo much more to Star Wars than that. Now we're looking at major publishes that are devoted to pushing more people into factions. They have not said whether or not this is the actual GCW revamp that was supposed to happen, but I assume it's not. So what does this mean? Neutrals are being forced into an even more meaningless and alienated category. We have the CURB and then the non combat profession revamp. The only revamp/major publish that still exists is the GCW revamp. What this means is that neutrals will continue to pushed aside. Not only that, but everyone seems to think a criminal faction would eliminate the problem and they are hoping for an underworld revamp. That will change nothing since there will still be people who want to remain neutral.If they want to make the game more like Star Wars, then good for them, and I can't wait. If they want to make the game more like Battlefields, I'd like them to let us know because there's more to Star Wars than that. You say these changes are meant to make the game more like Star Wars. I say these changes make it more like a game. Star Wars was dynamic and ever changing, these changes are stagnant and make the game more one dimensional.
Ok, I think I see where we miss each other
They haven't gone outside the GCW by including Neutral Factions (I'm assuming you mean having local authorities scan, correct?). What they have done is to have the Law Enforcement of each area scan for contraband (which is how it should have been all along). This does not make any change that affects "Neutrals" (I much prefer Civilians, it gets the poitn across better) any differently than it did when Imperials only were scanning.
Neutrals have not been pushed aside though, which is the flaw I find in your argument. The GCW has to happen, or there is no reason for this to be a Star Wars game. No, it is not all about the two factions (but those are the driving forces behind it). Until those two factions are truly at war there cannot be inclusion for Civilians (which technically should not be involved in the war at all, but simply living their lives peacefully, which does mean it is just the two factions until a third faction is implemented).
There is nothing here that makes this game Battlefields. This is a game that is based on the Star Wars Universe. The GCW is just as much a part of that as anything else, and arguably the most important part as that is the entire basis of the Universe as it exists. This foundation truly makes the way for more of a Star Wars feeling.
Zhagadska
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:20 am
#29
yimaz wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here (please fill me in if I am)....
you are missing something....
Pie
yimaz
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:31 am
#30
SmugglinZane wrote:
My argument about neutral NPCs is to show that Tyrant, and the rest of his team, need to find a new argument. Do I seriously think they're putting in content for neutral NPCs, no! It's to illustrate a two part fallacy on their part. -Zane the GCW has been dead since day one it's about time it moved to the forefront of the game and it is what Star Wars is all about, hence the name Star Wars.
1. THEY have gone outside of the GCW by now including neutral factions. If they can included neutral parties with NPCs, why is it so important to pick a side? I'm just trying to point out that their own actions and designs make their dismissive response to everything that's been asked totally asinine. - Crime factions are the only true neutral factions all others are law inforcment working for or answering to who ever has control of the planet (look at Irac for an example of that)
2. I really want people to understand a couple things about these changes and the future of this game for anyone. Star Wars is NOT the GCW, nor is the GCW all about the factions.The GCW is a mjor part of it. It is the catalyst that moves the movies along. There is sooo much more to Star Wars than that. Now we're looking at major publishes that are devoted to pushing more people into factions. They have not said whether or not this is the actual GCW revamp that was supposed to happen, but I assume it's not. So what does this mean? Neutrals are being forced into an even more meaningless and alienated category. We have the CURB and then the non combat profession revamp. The only revamp/major publish that still exists is the GCW revamp. What this means is that neutrals will continue to pushed aside. Not only that, but everyone seems to think a criminal faction would eliminate the problem and they are hoping for an underworld revamp. That will change nothing since there will still be people who want to remain neutral. - granted i also dont see a crime faction happening anytime soon and yes that sucks but come on since launch this game has leaned twords neutrals sidelining "a major part" of Star Wars which is in fact the GCW all things do in fact center around it, smuggler and crime lordsthrive in the chaos, BH's make tones of cash hunting enemys of the state and the normal man's man is fighting for what he believes in. Luke, Han, Liea, everyone would have never met if it were not for the GCW.
If they want to make the game more like Star Wars, then good for them, and I can't wait. If they want to make the game more like Battlefields, I'd like them to let us know because there's more to Star Wars than that. You say these changes are meant to make the game more like Star Wars. I say these changes make it more like a game. Star Wars was dynamic and ever changing, these changes are stagnant and make the game more one dimensional. - im sorry but your way off on this the game has not changed you can still pick non-combat professions you can still not fight in the war you can still do everything you could before but now the war has meaning and there is nothing wrong with that.
Message Edited by yimaz on 02-18-2005 10:34 AM
yimaz
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:32 am
#31
Zhagadska wrote:
yimaz wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here (please fill me in if I am)....
you are missing something....
Pie
pie.......... /drool
HOTDOG
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:41 am
#32
SmugglinZane wrote:
My argument about neutral NPCs is to show that Tyrant, and the rest of his team, need to find a new argument. Do I seriously think they're putting in content for neutral NPCs, no! It's to illustrate a two part fallacy on their part.
1. THEY have gone outside of the GCW by now including neutral factions.
If they can included neutral parties with NPCs, why is it so important to pick a side?
The game wasn't created to be COMPLETELY rebels and Imperials but itIS based on a civil war between those two factions and therefore that struggle should be in the foreground. This has not been the case for a very long time now and it's wrong.
Again, the use of neutral factions in the crackdown was done so that Imperials can feel the sting of breaking the law as well as the rebels. AND if the rebels are winning the GCW these neutral forces will help put pressure on the Imps (as I understand it).
I'm just trying to point out that their own actions and designs make their dismissive response to everything that's been asked totally asinine.
2. I really want people to understand a couple things about these changes and the future of this game for anyone. Star Wars is NOT the GCW, nor is the GCW all about the factions.The GCW is a mjor part of it. It is the catalyst that moves the movies along. There is sooo much more to Star Wars than that. Now we're looking at major publishes that are devoted to pushing more people into factions.
Because at the moment there is no GCW. As the game is now, no one could give a crap about the GCW or what it is about and in a game that has Star Wars in the title that is wrong.
So the Devs are trying to get players invested in this war that is supposed to be the struggle of the galaxy. The only galactic struggle we have now is finding a vendor with actual items on it.
They have not said whether or not this is the actual GCW revamp that was supposed to happen, but I assume it's not. So what does this mean? Neutrals are being forced into an even more meaningless and alienated category. We have the CURB and then the non combat profession revamp. The only revamp/major publish that still exists is the GCW revamp. What this means is that neutrals will continue to pushed aside. Not only that, but everyone seems to think a criminal faction would eliminate the problem and they are hoping for an underworld revamp. That will change nothing since there will still be people who want to remain neutral.
I fail to see how neutrals are being pushed aside here. The GCW should be oppressive and civilians should be constantly be reminded that this war is effecting everything around them.
If they want to make the game more like Star Wars, then good for them, and I can't wait. If they want to make the game more like Battlefields, I'd like them to let us know because there's more to Star Wars than that. You say these changes are meant to make the game more like Star Wars. I say these changes make it more like a game. Star Wars was dynamic and ever changing, these changes are stagnant and make the game more one dimensional.
The game now is buff, (solo) group, take mission, kill, earn money/XP/loot, change template, rinse and repeat.
SWGcan never be Battlefields because it is MUCH more involved-the only dimension that it is missing is theONE dimension that defines it-the Star War.
Civilians will/DO have a place in Star Wars butATM we are all civilians.
SmugglinZane
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:44 am
#33
yimaz wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here (please fill me in if I am)....
A Civilian and Crimial are two different people and atm there is no criminal faction for us to join (sadly)so at this point you are either a Rebel an Imperial or a Civilian.
Actually there are criminals. They're the faction members that neutral factions attack. The point is that simple and slight additions/changes to what's going in could/should have been done. There should have been a faction loss with the neutral faction for neutral players. It's logical and it would do a better job of encouraging players to join a faction.
When the first changes were proposed and I was told to pick a side, the argument was somewhat more valid. I still contend the fact that wars involve and effect more than just the people who belong to one side or the other. When they began to involve neutral factions attacking Imps and Rebs and not neutrals, I got angry. Tyrant's argument no longer had a place in the discussion since they, not us, took the GCW to factions/NPCs outside of the GCW. I'm not even arguing for neutral PvP anymore, that's nothing compared to the slap they laid on us with part 3.
I refuse to accept their argument. They use it because it keeps them from having to answer the real arguments and concerns that players like me raise. They think it's clever. I think it shows their lack of imagination and their lack of respect for the people who are the reason they have a job.
The GCW stuff is great for the GCW players, but to the rest it tells them that they really don't matter. The game is nothing more than a combat simulator for you.
You're right, if you're a neutral, little changes for you except the ability to help your friends when they need it. I never said it changed other than that. What I'm saying is that it is unacceptable for them to continue to say that it's all about the GCW when they add neutral NPCs to the mix and not neutral players. It's kind of like when Smugglers were left out of the "Crackdown" changes. There is and needs to be a place for neutrals in the changes.
I really don't understand why people continue to think this is about hunting stormtroopers and rebels. For me, it's more about the fact they feel they can include neutral factions, and not neutral players, and tell us it's all about our choice. What kind of choice is it? It's a choice between getting meaningful updates sent your way, and playing the way you were told you would be able to. They need to get back to working on some of the things that were advertised at launch so EVERYONE can get the "Star Wars" aspects of the game.
Does anyone else find it funny that we're going to possibly be paying for an expansion that was supposed to be included in the cost of the game at launch?
yimaz
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:47 am
#34
HOTDOG wrote:
So the Devs are trying to get players invested in this war that is supposed to be the struggle of the galaxy. The only galactic struggle we have now is finding a vendor with actual items on it.
ROFLMAO
SmugglinZane
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:54 am
#35
Ryutek wrote:
Ok, I think I see where we miss each other
They haven't gone outside the GCW by including Neutral Factions (I'm assuming you mean having local authorities scan, correct?). What they have done is to have the Law Enforcement of each area scan for contraband (which is how it should have been all along). This does not make any change that affects "Neutrals" (I much prefer Civilians, it gets the poitn across better) any differently than it did when Imperials only were scanning.
Neutrals have not been pushed aside though, which is the flaw I find in your argument. The GCW has to happen, or there is no reason for this to be a Star Wars game. No, it is not all about the two factions (but those are the driving forces behind it). Until those two factions are truly at war there cannot be inclusion for Civilians (which technically should not be involved in the war at all, but simply living their lives peacefully, which does mean it is just the two factions until a third faction is implemented).
There is nothing here that makes this game Battlefields. This is a game that is based on the Star Wars Universe. The GCW is just as much a part of that as anything else, and arguably the most important part as that is the entire basis of the Universe as it exists. This foundation truly makes the way for more of a Star Wars feeling.
But the authorities will be attacking if you are a member of occupying faction, not for the contraband. By making more and more of the game revolve around the singular aspect of just one conflict, when so many existed, it makes it more like Battlefields. Star Wars involves so much more than just battles between Rebels and Imperials.
I do agree that we see things differently. I do feel that neutrals have been pushed aside. I'm not arguing for neutrals to be a part of the GCW. What I'm arguing is that if they are going to make neutral factions have meaningful interaction with players, then they should have it with ALL players. I do not count fines as meaningful interaction since we have seen how little they mean to anyone/everyone. Rebels will be scanning now, not because Rebel players were sick of being fined, but because they were sick of being attacked. Now add neutral factions to the attacking mix, and then tell neutral players they have no place in the system.
I feel like a broken record because everyone is seems to think my argument is about attacking/getting attacked byfaction NPCs. It's not about that. It's about the fact that if they are going to include planetary authorities, then they need to do something better to have them act as such and quit leaving the non faction players out in the cold. All I've ever wanted in this game was to have authorities act against me for having illegal gear. Now it's going in, but it's not about the illegal stuff, it's about what faction you belong to. Tell me what this would say to you?
yimaz
Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:58 am
#36
SmugglinZane wrote:
yimaz wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here (please fill me in if I am)....
A Civilian and Crimial are two different people and atm there is no criminal faction for us to join (sadly)so at this point you are either a Rebel an Imperial or a Civilian.
Actually there are criminals. They're the faction members that neutral factions attack. The point is that simple and slight additions/changes to what's going in could/should have been done. There should have been a faction loss with the neutral faction for neutral players. It's logical and it would do a better job of encouraging players to join a faction. - dont we have that now I know the thugs in most citys hate me.
When the first changes were proposed and I was told to pick a side, the argument was somewhat more valid. I still contend the fact that wars involve and effect more than just the people who belong to one side or the other. When they began to involve neutral factions attacking Imps and Rebs and not neutrals, I got angry. Tyrant's argument no longer had a place in the discussion since they, not us, took the GCW to factions/NPCs outside of the GCW. I'm not even arguing for neutral PvP anymore, that's nothing compared to the slap they laid on us with part 3. - Civilans should be oppressed not attacked that in and of itself should encourage you to pick a side.
I refuse to accept their argument. They use it because it keeps them from having to answer the real arguments and concerns that players like me raise. They think it's clever. I think it shows their lack of imagination and their lack of respect for the people who are the reason they have a job. - Zane come on it's a fairly simple argument, there is a war going on pick a side and fight or dont and I mean that with all due respect to you
The GCW stuff is great for the GCW players, but to the rest it tells them that they really don't matter. The game is nothing more than a combat simulator for you. - again its call Star Wars for a reason it is the central orunderliningtheme of everything in the movies and books.
You're right, if you're a neutral, little changes for you except the ability to help your friends when they need it. - you desided not to be a part of the war if you wanna hunt/help you friends you can do that if you wanna kill an Imp who is attacking a friend join the rebellion.I never said it changed other than that. What I'm saying is that it is unacceptable for them to continue to say that it's all about the GCW when they add neutral NPCs to the mix and not neutral players. It's kind of like when Smugglers were left out of the "Crackdown" changes. There is and needs to be a place for neutrals in the changes. - there is you cant help factioned friends.
I really don't understand why people continue to think this is about hunting stormtroopers and rebels.For me, it's more about the fact they feel they can include neutral factions, and not neutral players, and tell us it's all about our choice. - it is your choice they want people involved in the main theme which is in fact the GCWWhat kind of choice is it? It's a choice between getting meaningful updates sent your way, and playing the way you were told you would be able to. - again nothing has changed except the GCW is at the forground and it should be that way They need to get back to working on some of the things that were advertised at launch so EVERYONE can get the "Star Wars" aspects of the game. - they have a lot of work to do but it was time and over due for GCW changes.
Does anyone else find it funny that we're going to possibly be paying for an expansion that was supposed to be included in the cost of the game at launch? - everygame is about that, they always have and always will
Message Edited by yimaz on 02-18-2005 11:09 AM
yimaz
Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:02 am
#37
SmugglinZane wrote:
But the authorities will be attacking if you are a member of occupying faction, not for the contraband. By making more and more of the game revolve around the singular aspect of just one conflict, when so many existed, it makes it more like Battlefields. Star Wars involves so much more than just battles between Rebels and Imperials. - this is nothing like Battlefields nothing at all like it. This is a weak argument because this game started with a hell of a lot more then BAttlefields will ever have. All that's happend is the focus of the game is on the GCW something that was also promised at launch and has never been as it should be.
Message Edited by yimaz on 02-18-2005 11:03 AM
SmugglinZane
Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:09 am
#38
yimaz wrote:
SmugglinZane wrote:
But the authorities will be attacking if you are a member of occupying faction, not for the contraband. By making more and more of the game revolve around the singular aspect of just one conflict, when so many existed, it makes it more like Battlefields. Star Wars involves so much more than just battles between Rebels and Imperials. - this is nothing like Battlefields nothing at all like it. This is a weak argument because this game started with a hell of a lot more then BAttlefields will ever have. All that's happend is the focus of the game is on the GCW something that was also promised at launch and has never been as it should be.
Message Edited by yimaz on 02-18-2005 11:03 AM
Fine, I withdraw the Battlefields argument. That stems from the other players misunderstanding my point and their attempts to use FPSs in their arguments.
I'm not disputing that the GCW needed work. I'm saying that there was room for everyone in some aspects of the changes, and they refuse to include that. In their drive to make the GCW more meaningful, they are alienating an entire group of players.
Do you realise what something as little and simple as changing the way the police factions will be interacting with players would eliminate a lot of the grumbling about this stuff?
riotcontrol
Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:13 am
#39
SmugglinZane wrote:Rebels will be scanning now, not because Rebel players were sick of being fined, but because they were sick of being attacked. Now add neutral factions to the attacking mix, and then tell neutral players they have no place in the system.
Just to chime in with a slightly related issue - uhm, isn't it quite weird that the Rebels are even scanning anyone? This is beginning to look more and more like a regular war with two equal sides against each other, where it doesn't even matter which side you pick since they're the same. And, in fact, Rebels should be rebelling against an oppressive regime that is currently ruling the most part of and trying to conquer the whole galaxy, working undercover and trying to rally ordinary citizens (the civilians who are under the imperial rule by default) to their cause. There should be a lot of distinction between how Rebels and Imperials play the game.Message Edited by riotcontrol on 02-18-2005 05:14 PM