CUEmu - Thread Posts

JTGAlpha

Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm

Mackle? Mackle? Where!?

Hey, Mackle! Well you know some of us old schoolers have to toss her back in just as a point of reference. I mean that girl almost didn't want to play a game with ANYONE. She was more extreme in her PvE'ness than silversaber is.

Dayasi Vo'Boda CEO of SCUM PA.
Founders of Agrilatia in the Agrilat Swamps Of Corellia (Intrepid).
Taking Scum and Villainy to a new Level to Serve YOU.
Remember: SCUM does it dirtyAnother Horseman of the Smuggling Apocolypse

DevilsAdvocate

Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:12 pm

#340

Great job GM, this looks realy good. On slicing I would like to see the tool quality to affect the quality of the slice...the effect can stay "random" but at the least a good smuggler should be able to consistantly do higher quality work. Also I think that if possible that we get an entry level price on our heads that can build as we gain visibility, and that every "PVP" mission we run gives us a little visibility (basicaly we are getting a rep good for business /bad because the law knows us). If we rip off an employer or fail a mission we gain much more due to the fact that the crime world is less tolerant then the law world. Anyway the higher our visibility climbs the higher the bounty on our heads becomes.

Faustson wrote:

One thing i think would be really cool would be able to buy the BH off from the mark. Hear me out on this one, u would pay the BH off to say he took u out and u would drop him some cash to get u off ther terimnals. Not all BH would go for this (well my old bh character would since i was all about the credits). But this could give some RP to the game between BH and smugglers and could turn outto be some good fun maybe. But just my thinking

This could be easily used to do high risk missions and have a BH friend clear you so you dont have to worry about the risk...badidea. Though bribing would be fun its just not practicle I dont think.

Istin

Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:02 pm

#341

This post'll prolly turn out fairly long, just a warning. I'll try to use colors to keep it interesting

Introduction to myself: I LOVE PvP and the idea of PC BHs coming after me. In fact,

if I'm still playing the day this revamp comes out, I'll probably "mis-slice" a BH terminal as

soon as I log on to get on the terminals.

However...I'm really trying to look at this from a birds-eye-view, rather than from sides. If

something in here seems like it's biased, it was not my intent for it to be so. If this post

gets any notice and replies, I'll prolly ignore the ones dealing with semantics.

I've finally read all 15 pages of this (never made it through the 50 or so of the other thread)

And I'm more or less trying to consolidate them all into what I see and where I stand.

Concern's are in yellow, so if you don't want to read about it anymore, skip to the next

yellow. I'm also trying to prioritze these concerns.

1stConcern: PvE vs PvP

Let me try to clear the air here. If you can PvP well, you most likely can PvE well too.

This is prolly where PvPers "think they're better". Fully buffed I can prolly take down two

other players with a lotof difficulty. This is simply because the players might run away,

use kd, intimidate, and other various effects that PvE doesn't usually apply to a player.

I can take down two juvenile krayts simultaneously with less difficulty than two other fairly

decent PvPers. This is why I think that PvP is "harder" than PvE. I would personally equate

a decent BH who's hunting me to a krayt dragon (normal, not juvenile).

I'm pretty sure this is why PvPers are clamoring for better loot from missions, i.e. the

division between critical missions and normal missions. The what is assumed as a higher

risk involved in being hunted by PC BHs warrants the greater loot.

Is there really a greater danger from a PC BH than a NPC BH? Not when you look at the

situations logically. PvE causes decay and time loss, PvP causes time loss, hurt pride,

etc... (but nothing that really damages you or your equipment in-game). Right now I'm feeling

that these punishments are about equal. Decay costs credits, that's it. Tarnished

reputation/pride? That could be a big deal after the revamp. The reason jedi fear being

killed byBHs is the skill loss. Smugglers do not have that fear. Maybe we need to discuss

what punishments for dying to a BH could warrant the better loot.

Now, do I think that PvErs should be excluded from the betterloot? Absolutey NOT.

Here's a few solutions that have been presented in this thread that are memorable to me that

would allow for PvErs to gain access to the better loot.

2nd Concern: Some solutions that people have come up with

Note:Everything people have really come up with are unique visibility-assigning systems.

This does not help PvErs very much in the current risk/reward system. I'll still adress those

systems though.

1) Visibility generated by skimming and whatnot decreases over time

Greenmarine stated in a post in this thread that this could be implemented. Read back

through this thread before you contest this. What could be done is have 3 or so

consecutive failed critical missions generate enough visibility to get on the BH terminals.

Once you've failed enough that you think will alost get you on the terminals, stop for a

while.

That way PvErs can do these missions to get the loot, but prolly not en masse. If

you're doing high visibility missions a lot, you're prolly someone that wants to get on the

terminals.

2) Have normal missions with the same loot, but in smaller amounts

Let the critical mission takers transport larger amount of loot, so they can skim more.

The PvErs will have less to skim, but will "only" have NPC BHs to worry about.

3) Have same loots for all

Being a PvPer, I dont like this idea. Just 'cause...you know...........uh.....yeah.........

In all honesty, I LOVE PvP and think it IS harder than PvE, but in this system, difficulty

isn't what matters, it's penalty. There REALLY needs to be more of a penalty for PC

BHs killing you if PvPers are gonna get the better loot missions.

4) "Military" loot for PvPers, "civilian" loot for PvErs

So we give the PvPers access to both types of loot, PvEs only really get civilian loot.

Don't think it's gonna work.

What if PvErs just want to sell said "military" loot because it WILL mostly likely be the

rarer loot in this system.

5) Local Authorities assign bounties, no visibility created on normal mission loot

So, do the crime lords you are taking missions from also assgn bounties? Now you've

got double-trouble if you go the PvP way.

This still leaves PvErs out, unless they go"lay low" on other planets, which'll be a pain

in the arse most times. The planet you are most visible on is prolly the one you visit most.

Interesting idea, and I like it, but I don't see it allowing the PvErs the same loot as the

PvPers.

Ugh, this is taking a lot longer than I anticipated. Those 5 solutions are what I could think

of right now, but I have to sleep sometime ( and I have jury duty tomorrow too =/).

I have other concerns I want to address as well, I'll try to finish this up soon.

______________________________________________________________
Jagrond Istin, Imperial Captain

Master Smuggler
Teras Kasi Master
Master Gunfighter

RellikCro

Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:57 pm

#342

DND_Cas wrote:

Mackle wrote:

It is hard for me to believe thateven current posts regarding PvP vs. PvE somehow manage to bring Caella into them.

Me and Cae never agreed on alot (and we still don't) but in this she had a point. A PvP'ers playstyle is not adverse to doing PvE content whereas the reverse is not true.

So I'd say to GM that if he wants to exclude PvE'ers from certain content, and by his own admission he is (because he know they're playstyle is not compatable), then can he tell us what content he is going to exclude from PvP'ers and the method by which he is going to do it.

Imo no proffession should be made that excludes one playstyle or another from any of its content. Whilecertain playstyles may graviatate towards certain professions that doesn't mean theyshould be designed to exclude one playstyle or another (one of my biggest gripes with ranger actually). To clarify designing a skillset that will appeal to certain playstyles is one thing - designing asystem that excludes playstyles isa bad idea.

/agree

Rellikcro

Rifle/CH/Medic - Freelance Pilot
Pistoleer/Commando/Bounty Hunter/Medic - Imperial Pilot
Politician/ID/Musician

ViperOSU

Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:08 pm

#343

I have been a smuggler since I started and I plan to always be one. Your consideration and DEDICATION to us is amazing GreenMarine! I look forward to your work on our up comming revamp.

I don't have anything to add really at this time that has not already been covered in depth by yourslef and other players excpet regarding a few skill related items.

Dirty Fighting would be great with some VERY dirty perhaps almst CHEAT like skills, and let's hope the underworld tree is dealt with nicely!

Thx GreenMarine!

Captain Slyynyk

The Crazed Wookie

Master Rifleman / Former Master Smuggler

Member of the Crazy Chemists Gang

"Oh No! Slyy's on everybody stop talking about him in guild chat." - Saxamaphone

TheWok

Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:48 pm

#344

DND_Cas wrote:

Imo no proffession should be made that excludes one playstyle or another from any of its content. Whilecertain playstyles may graviatate towards certain professions that doesn't mean theyshould be designed to exclude one playstyle or another (one of my biggest gripes with ranger actually). To clarify designing a skillset that will appeal to certain playstyles is one thing - designing asystem that excludes playstyles isa bad idea.

What if I want to be a squad leader, but I don't want to join a group? The squad leader requires the use of a group for experience, thus excluding the soloer from its content. It's the same logic as you're using here.

In truth, GM is excluding no one from any content. PvEers are just as able of participating in the PvE content as anyone else. They'll just have to take the chance of being hunted by a player. Just like a soloer will have to bite the bullet and find groups to be a squad leader. If you choose not to participate in the PvP aspect of the game, then you will possibly miss out on some content. It's that simple.

---------------------------------------------
Trini Rio
Owner/Operator of Rio Freelance Cargo - Tal Kyrte, Lok

we smuggler. we want smuggle. no smuggle. bad. no smuggle. no good.
- The Vampiric Hoshi
The History of SWG Smuggling (looking for a happy ending soon?)
How I would make the GCW more meaningful and fun

Nerj

Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:12 am

#345

TheWok wrote:

DND_Cas wrote:

Imo no proffession should be made that excludes one playstyle or another from any of its content. Whilecertain playstyles may graviatate towards certain professions that doesn't mean theyshould be designed to exclude one playstyle or another (one of my biggest gripes with ranger actually). To clarify designing a skillset that will appeal to certain playstyles is one thing - designing asystem that excludes playstyles isa bad idea.

What if I want to be a squad leader, but I don't want to join a group? The squad leader requires the use of a group for experience, thus excluding the soloer from its content. It's the same logic as you're using here.

In truth, GM is excluding no one from any content. PvEers are just as able of participating in the PvE content as anyone else. They'll just have to take the chance of being hunted by a player. Just like a soloer will have to bite the bullet and find groups to be a squad leader. If you choose not to participate in the PvP aspect of the game, then you will possibly miss out on some content. It's that simple.

Well, actually a SQUAD LEADER is Player with Player (PwP). A Bounty Hunter Mark is NOT really PvP, but somewhere in between. This is because you are not being chased byANY member of the opposite faction, but only another player of a specific type -- aka a Bounty Hunter.

Valcyn - Master Marksman Master Commando, Master Smuggler From Tiggs: -- Two words -- Bring it!

WE WILL NOT TIRE, WE WILL NOT FALTER, AND WE WILL NOT FAIL

Nerj

Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:36 am

#346

DND_Cas wrote:

Mackle wrote:

It is hard for me to believe thateven current posts regarding PvP vs. PvE somehow manage to bring Caella into them.

Me and Cae never agreed on alot (and we still don't) but in this she had a point. A PvP'ers playstyle is not adverse to doing PvE content whereas the reverse is not true.

So I'd say to GM that if he wants to exclude PvE'ers from certain content, and by his own admission he is (because he know they're playstyle is not compatable), then can he tell us what content he is going to exclude from PvP'ers and the method by which he is going to do it.

Imo no proffession should be made that excludes one playstyle or another from any of its content. Whilecertain playstyles may graviatate towards certain professions that doesn't mean theyshould be designed to exclude one playstyle or another (one of my biggest gripes with ranger actually). To clarify designing a skillset that will appeal to certain playstyles is one thing - designing asystem that excludes playstyles isa bad idea.

Different professions have different skillsets, the Smuggler profession has a skillset with certain RISKs to it. That risk is different from the Ranger profession, which is design to interact in the PvE enviroment and is VERY weak in the PvP enviroment.On the other hand, the Smuggler profession currentlly has a skillset that is designed for the GCW, a specific PvP line known as the underworld tree. This tree requires one to be OVERT in order to buy and sell Faction Points and to buy high end GCW "products" at a discount.

Therefore, system currentlly excludes the PvE playstyle from HIGHER level content -- like AT-STs.

Jedi is NOT the only PvP profession, SMUGGLER is also a PvP profession. Designed out of the box as such, a starter profession in PvPso to speak.

Valcyn - Master Marksman Master Commando, Master Smuggler From Tiggs: -- Two words -- Bring it!

WE WILL NOT TIRE, WE WILL NOT FALTER, AND WE WILL NOT FAIL

DND_Cas

Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:35 am

#347

TheWok wrote:

DND_Cas wrote:

Imo no proffession should be made that excludes one playstyle or another from any of its content. Whilecertain playstyles may graviatate towards certain professions that doesn't mean theyshould be designed to exclude one playstyle or another (one of my biggest gripes with ranger actually). To clarify designing a skillset that will appeal to certain playstyles is one thing - designing asystem that excludes playstyles isa bad idea.

What if I want to be a squad leader, but I don't want to join a group? The squad leader requires the use of a group for experience, thus excluding the soloer from its content. It's the same logic as you're using here.

In truth, GM is excluding no one from any content. PvEers are just as able of participating in the PvE content as anyone else. They'll just have to take the chance of being hunted by a player. Just like a soloer will have to bite the bullet and find groups to be a squad leader. If you choose not to participate in the PvP aspect of the game, then you will possibly miss out on some content. It's that simple.

I agree. Solo squad leader should be avaliable in the guise of being able to have groupable npc's (and not just GCW factioned ones).

I disagree that it is exactly the same however. GM is advocating giving greater rewards to PvP'ers and thats elevating one playstyle over another contentwise - it sets a bad premise for the future. It doesn't have to be done this way. Letting players choose a pvp or pve risk and keeping the reward the same for both is the way to go imo. It just means that they need to make the PvE option significantly challenging.

Previously: Master Ranger/Master Fencer
Now: Master Tailor/Merchant/Commando

KodaVeers

Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:08 am

#348

Ya know we reallly dont need 2 diffrent systems to accomodate everyone. No reason to bicker about loot, who's getting what and why. It s really simple.

Ok we get our missions hopefully not from a terminal, thast just not smugglerish is it?? We can find those people with the little symbol over there head that we see all over. But maybe a symbol only us smugglers can see just because we know what to look for..lol

I know your saying but we cant slice a person for more money...but thats why we use our underworld skills to get a bigger payment...

When getting a mission there are diffrent levels of contraband to choose like GM had outlined above. Gives everyone a choice.

Ok now we dont need 2 systems or missions cuz heres the solution...

if you get high enough visibility to be placed on a BH terminal then you get XXXX amount of time to buy out your bounty. If you dont then you get your bounty activated on the terminal.

Its that simple...Either you pay or run PvE or PvP.

I"m a PvE'er I only PvP if someone attacks my cities base and im in town.

This seems like the easiest way to do things. This is my solution just read it out and realize how easy it is.

"We are the people that can find whatever you may need, If you got the money honey, we got your disease" GNR

To those of you who feel ripped off by NGE, here you go. "You bought an apple, you ate that apple, you enjoyed that apple. Now you've been given a lemon. Eat it, chuck it, squeeze it over a pancake. The choice is yours." As explained by "Coldreboot"

Kodda Veers Master Smuggler Kodda Veers Master Bounty Hunter

HOTDOG

Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:36 am

#349

I would LOVE for it to work that way Koda but the problem is the average person that is only interested in PvE feels they shouldn't have to DO anything to ensure their game remains PvE.

So if they get their name on the terminals and have to go OUT OF THEIR WAY to make sure they don't get PvP'd they feel they are being forced to change their game.

And they are right- they WOULD actively have to DO something to play the way they wanted to play. Some might argue that PvP'ers have had to go out of their way since day one (join a faction, find a recruiter, declare, are you sure- etc.) but that would be another arguement for another thread.

Also you would run into problems if the person did not have the money to pay their way out of the bounty-

Two systems is the cleanest way to keep the playstyles seperate.

TEVIN STARGUNNER | WASODO T'GADIE

Rogue | Desperado | Demolitionist Short | Dark | Handsome

GreenMarine

Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:21 pm

#350

I've been exceptionally busy/distracted the past couple days, but I'll be catching up on the current state of this debate.

rockanddroll

Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:33 pm

#351

Alot of the discussion has focused around bounty hunters being able to get missions against those who are not careful. But the Poor Bounty Hunter and their PvP missions keeps getting nerfed into oblivion.

Is there going to be any steps to coordinate the smuggler revamp with a bounty hunter revamp? Because it is starting to lokk like the two should go hand in hand.

e Order of the Dying Knights f
Jannie Knowing of Eclipse

Smuggler Archive

Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)