Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband/Missions PART 2 (Solutions)
JediArashi wrote:
I think that is all reasonable, and I appreciate your efforts Vampirerobot to poll peoples opinions on this specific circumstance.
-Arashi
"I have always wanted to see Infamy as Pride/Ego booster for the Smuggler. This would also though would help base (along with skill level) how big of a mission reward you can recieve. The more missions you do over a time period the better the missions become (price and skimming wise). Over time if you slack off from doing Smuggler missions your Infamy lowers and you are not able to make as much money or skim as much until you are working again. This would add more RP'ing depth to smuggling. The Smuggler would not use any skill level but if they were not smuggling and started up agian people would beless willing to trust a Smuggler who has been out fo the game too long with their big orders. This makes Smuggler missions important to keep doing once you have mastered the profession if you want to make money off of it.
Visablity to me is simply showing that you have screwed up as a Smuggler and as such should be more a mark of shame then glory for you get to PVP."
I agree with this assesment of Infamy and Visibility and don't see why it shouldn't work that way.
The more infamous you are the more money you would make to complete a job- that would help level out the differences between PvP and PvE- But a Critical mission should have the smuggler handle more contrabrand than a normal mission as the consequences and the mission itself is harder.
HOTDOG wrote:
I wrote:
"3) Are you thinking of banning contrabrand from the bazaar/vendors? If so (and we do hope so) would you replace them with black market vendors/NPCs or not replace them at all?"
Silversaber responded:
Wonderful, lets not only make sliced weapons unappealing to most of the players, but also reduce/eliminate the markets where we can sell them. Wow, that will help the Smugglers economically. Yea.
My response:
This would in NO WAY eliminate the sliced weapon market it might reduce it but I HIGHLY doubt it. All it would accomplish is that sliced weapons would not be available on legitimate vendors- as they should not be. Example: You can go to K-Mart and buy a gun because it is legal to own a gun- but you cannot go to K-Mart and by a silencer (kinda like a power up, no?) because silencers are illegal.
This has been discussed positively by the community on these forums for a while now. Personally I disagree with not allowing contrabrand to be sold on vendors at all (having black market vendors/NPCs in cantinas or the like is the answer to me) but some smugglers felt we should only be able to deal these things hand to hand so that is why I asked the question in the manner that I did.
Sounds all well and shady, and adds to the illegal feel, but its still not practical. Do you really think a Smuggler is just going to stand around selling spice or sliced items while everyone else is just stocking thier venders? Its one of those sounds great-but-works horrably features. having black market venders in cantinas would sound good, that is if you had access to a Cantina to put a Vender in. That would work well for those Smugglers in a PA City, but the ones not in a PA would be kinda screwed.
No matter what you do to prevent the sale of illegal items people will find a way around it if they want them- example: People will buy silencer kits and put them together since Selling silencers is illegal and not the PARTS to make one.
I highlighted "if they want them" because that is the main key here. If GM follows through with people being penalized for carrying sliced items, and you put making them almost impossible to find on top of that, those items must really be ultra good stuff, or people just wont bother. Alota good that will do us then.
We just ask for this because it aids immersion.
Immersion is great....untill it sucks the fun out of the game and players find ways around the restrictive rules that enforced immersion. The Devs found that out the hard way with Jedi.
Silversaber wrote:
Um, do you know what TEF stands for? It stands for Temporary Enemy Flag. It is used ONLY in the GCW for making Coverts attackable by Overts temporarily. Now, you may have ment to say, make the Guards aggro us when we slice something (not have Overt GCW players attack us), I still disagree with this. Having to go out into the boondocks every time I slice something would become tedius very quickly, especially if I aggro a guard passing my house. It will NOT get rid of your irritation of Smugglers spamming in a city, since they will continue to do so, and then run a short way out of the city with thier customer to do the slice. Real fun.
My response:
Yes. I do know what TEF stands for, I did mean Aggro, thanks.
I know you would love to be able to stand in the open and shout that you are slicing and then slice a whole set of armor right there in front of a squad of Troopers. It's very convienient- But it is HARDLY immersive and you can't tell me you feel like you are doing something illegal when you do it that way.
Whoa, I never said I did that! And im not defending those that do! I am just saying, putting this"feature" in just to try to cut down of the players that do spam, would be ineffective and end up as another useless annoyance in the game for us. You want to have the Guards aggro on those that Yell these services, fine by me. But making it so that I have to run outa the city just so I can slice, that is an annoyance I can do without thank ye.
We are trying to add some thrill to our profession and since there is nothing we can do about you advertising your services in the open I was asking if something could be done when you are CAUGHT IN THE ACT OF BREAKING THE LAW. I happen to think having to run outside the city not to get caught breaking the law is immersive AND fun. Perhaps we disagree but isn't making contrabrand FEEL like it's really illegal a big part of what this revamp is about?
Might be immersive and fun for you, but im betting that after a month of having this in, practically every Smuggler playing thier trade in the game would like to meet you just to kick your nuts in for suggesting this. It would end up to be a very irritating annoyance that would just stack with all the other irritating annoyances in the game put in for "Immersion".
I wrote:
"All these things kinda fall under the contrabrand discussion so I thought I would ask- especially since the PvP/PvE discussion seems to be somewhat resolved-"
Silversaber wrote:
Resolved? heck no. Argued until blue in the face, and finally giving up because its a no-win situation? Yes.
Idunno- I think we have met a healthy middle- We will have Infamy and Visibility to seperate PvE from PvP- We have agreed that Loots will be the same (so you don't have to perform a PvP mission to get needed components) but in smaller increments for the PvE missions. There will also be a Cash increase for the PvP missions because PvP is harder (NOT BETTER) than PvE. We have even had the suggestion that the PvP missions might have loot that would most likely suit a PvPer and vice versa for PvE'ers.
It all sounds good to me.
Sigh. Whatever.
Well, I guess it is a lot more convienient to find my illegal items right there for sell at the bazaar-
And good to know that even though it IS "illegal" to slice weapons/armor I won't have ANY trouble from any authority types 'cause nobody cares about what's illegal anyway. That's just a word that means it works better than the normal stuff.
Maybe we should be fighting for a revamp that allows me to sell contrabrand from Rebel and Imperial bases- it's not immersive but hey! they are my best clients.
Just what kind of changes are you looking for Saber? Me thinks it's gonna take a lot to make you happy.
*EDIT*
Oh yeah. The reason you can't punish people for shouting "5k A SLICE RIGHT HERE" is because they will get around it just like they get around the strict fuggin limits on this forum that keep you from saying things like "sh!T and F U C Kapeesh?
Message Edited by HOTDOG on 06-27-2003 02:01 PM
silversaber wrote:
HOTDOG wrote:
I wrote:
"3) Are you thinking of banning contrabrand from the bazaar/vendors? If so (and we do hope so) would you replace them with black market vendors/NPCs or not replace them at all?"
Silversaber responded:
Wonderful, lets not only make sliced weapons unappealing to most of the players, but also reduce/eliminate the markets where we can sell them. Wow, that will help the Smugglers economically. Yea.
My response:
This would in NO WAY eliminate the sliced weapon market it might reduce it but I HIGHLY doubt it. All it would accomplish is that sliced weapons would not be available on legitimate vendors- as they should not be. Example: You can go to K-Mart and buy a gun because it is legal to own a gun- but you cannot go to K-Mart and by a silencer (kinda like a power up, no?
This has been discussed positively by the community on these forums for a while now. Personally I disagree with not allowing contrabrand to be sold on vendors at all (having black market vendors/NPCs in cantinas or the like is the answer to me) but some smugglers felt we should only be able to deal these things hand to hand so that is why I asked the question in the manner that I did.
Sounds all well and shady, and adds to the illegal feel, but its still not practical. Do you really think a Smuggler is just going to stand around selling spice or sliced items while everyone else is just stocking thier venders? Its one of those sounds great-but-works horrably features. having black market venders in cantinas would sound good, that is if you had access to a Cantina to put a Vender in. That would work well for those Smugglers in a PA City, but the ones not in a PA would be kinda screwed.
No matter what you do to prevent the sale of illegal items people will find a way around it if they want them- example: People will buy silencer kits and put them together since Selling silencers is illegal and not the PARTS to make one.
I highlighted "if they want them" because that is the main key here. If GM follows through with people being penalized for carrying sliced items, and you put making them almost impossible to find on top of that, those items must really be ultra good stuff, or people just wont bother. Alota good that will do us then.
Listen man, you are correct in that it would be a pain to get spices off of only smugglers or other players, but if a player needed some spice and decided to scan every place he went for a "shady" character to buy them from, that is 1000 X's cooler than going to a vending machine. Pretty soon only merchants will be able to own vendors. Merchants will soon be operating "stores", selling goods for other players. At the very least, illegal goods shouldn't be sellable on the bazaar or in "respectable" merchant stores. I like the idea of going to a cantina and buying them off criminal vendor NPC's.
We just ask for this because it aids immersion.
Immersion is great....untill it sucks the fun out of the game and players find ways around the restrictive rules that enforced immersion. The Devs found that out the hard way with Jedi.
I see your point, but spices on the public bazaar during a time of harsh imperial oppression?
Silversaber wrote:
Um, do you know what TEF stands for? It stands for Temporary Enemy Flag. It is used ONLY in the GCW for making Coverts attackable by Overts temporarily. Now, you may have ment to say, make the Guards aggro us when we slice something (not have Overt GCW players attack us), I still disagree with this. Having to go out into the boondocks every time I slice something would become tedius very quickly, especially if I aggro a guard passing my house. It will NOT get rid of your irritation of Smugglers spamming in a city, since they will continue to do so, and then run a short way out of the city with thier customer to do the slice. Real fun.
My response:
Yes. I do know what TEF stands for, I did mean Aggro, thanks.
I know you would love to be able to stand in the open and shout that you are slicing and then slice a whole set of armor right there in front of a squad of Troopers. It's very convienient- But it is HARDLY immersive and you can't tell me you feel like you are doing something illegal when you do it that way.
Whoa, I never said I did that! And im not defending those that do! I am just saying, putting this"feature" in just to try to cut down of the players that do spam, would be ineffective and end up as another useless annoyance in the game for us. You want to have the Guards aggro on those that Yell these services, fine by me. But making it so that I have to run outa the city just so I can slice, that is an annoyance I can do without thank ye.
I think a smuggler could modify a weapon in public without being noticed. If a smuggler were to shout that he'll break the law for money... um.. yea.. that's not cool. Even if we had NPC cops that started a scan when they hear the words spice, sliced, etc., the player base would make up new names for them, lol. Where did the words spice and and slice come from in the first place?
We are trying to add some thrill to our profession and since there is nothing we can do about you advertising your services in the open I was asking if something could be done when you are CAUGHT IN THE ACT OF BREAKING THE LAW. I happen to think having to run outside the city not to get caught breaking the law is immersive AND fun. Perhaps we disagree but isn't making contrabrand FEEL like it's really illegal a big part of what this revamp is about?
Might be immersive and fun for you, but im betting that after a month of having this in, practically every Smuggler playing thier trade in the game would like to meet you just to kick your nuts in for suggesting this. It would end up to be a very irritating annoyance that would just stack with all the other irritating annoyances in the game put in for "Immersion".
I wrote:
"All these things kinda fall under the contrabrand discussion so I thought I would ask- especially since the PvP/PvE discussion seems to be somewhat resolved-"
Silversaber wrote:
Resolved? heck no. Argued until blue in the face, and finally giving up because its a no-win situation? Yes.
Idunno- I think we have met a healthy middle- We will have Infamy and Visibility to seperate PvE from PvP- We have agreed that Loots will be the same (so you don't have to perform a PvP mission to get needed components) but in smaller increments for the PvE missions. There will also be a Cash increase for the PvP missions because PvP is harder (NOT BETTER) than PvE. We have even had the suggestion that the PvP missions might have loot that would most likely suit a PvPer and vice versa for PvE'ers.
It all sounds good to me.
Sigh. Whatever.
HOTDOG wrote:
Summary 1: The main issue is the possibility of "involuntary PvP" or a player gaining a bounty who wants to be a smuggler but not participate in PvP.
Solution: The solution I like most is to have the mission suppliers offer two types of mission for each skill level. The punishments for failing or cheating a mission then become:
- Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs toa faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
- CriticalMission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.
This is SOLID. Splitting the types of missions by consequence is the best way to keep PvP and PvE seperate. The only thing I would add is to also have missions from the recruiters that give even more visibility when you succeed (this is to reflect the Empire hiring out a BH to get you for being so good at being a Rebel and vice versa.
Not that I don't like this idea (highlighted in BLUE), HOTDOG, but I have one that has been on my mind. When I first saw your post I was brainstorming an idea called "Clout".
Clout is sort of the reverse of your idea regarding highly successful Smugglers.
Basically, Clout would be a third stratic result from Smuggling missions (other than Infamy and Visibility) but instead of being given for failure, Clout "points" would be given for success and honesty in a mission.
Success: being caughtRARELYon a Smuggling Mission (I say rarely because I don't think anyone will always block the scan, but if so , then that would work too).
Honesty:NEVER skimming from your clients.
Bear with me. I'm leery of tossing in yet another Smuggler stratic and theidea is still in the rough stage, butI'll toss it in:
Requirements:
- After X number of missions without getting caught AND never skimming the product, a Smuggler would receive Y amount of Clout points.
- In an RP sense, your character gains gradual respect from hisunderworld clients. You always bring in your load, and you always bring it in full. You engender admiration, and no small amount of awe, from your clients and peers because of your combination of Smuggler skill and loyalty.
Benefits:
Connections: Your clients occasionally intervene on your behalf bybribing a Scan Team or using other underworld "juice" to let you walk free, unattacked,unfined, etcwhen you are caught with Contraband. The system message from the Scan Team could say "You have been found in possession of Contraband. However,as a favor to our"mutual friend"...you are free to go."
In a criminal Faction dispute (you get caught in a fight with a bunch of Valarians, Greck Smugglers, etc.If you should beIncapitated or about to die,your attackers hold off, telling you "Better be glad your boss reached out to ours. Next time you won't be so lucky."
(NOTE: I realize that at the present time criminal faction mobs areno real threat, but who knows how they'll be byRevamp time. Some other threat could be substituted, though).
The "Connections"benefit may be granted X times over Y period.
- In an RP sense: Your success and loyalty make your clients fond of you. So fond that they are willing to"reach out& touch"a friendly official or criminal faction member on your behalfwhen you get into a legal jam or underworld dispute. Upon attaining acertain Clout level, maybe a Black Sun Vigo would deal you a favor because he knows that he's going to need your stellar services to get richer downthe line.
Gift Items: Your clients occasionally give you gifts of the rarest and most valuable kind as a reward because of your loyalty and success. It could be a credit reward also.
- RP: You'venever skimmed on your missions or screwed up sofrequently thatClientcontrabandloadsregularly add to the CorSec evidence vault. In gratitude, every now and then, they "break you off som'nproper like " !
Faction Alternative:
Presently Faction Points are used to reflect a Player's standing with respective groups. It's not my intention to redo that system or subvert it. However, we all know that after +5000 a Player cannot gain any more points. In terms of Smuggling clients (and the fact that we don't know how Smuggler clients will be selected in the Revamp) the Clout system could be used to extend that +5000 or be totally separate from it. I don't know.
There's also the possibilty of program codingto consider. Perhapsincluding this idea works better from a coding angle if it's used in conjuction with the present Faction program.
As a possible solution with Faction poins in mind:
Affiliate: Your character has been extremely successful and otherwise loyal that he's maintained his Faction points with his clients within (for example) 4900-5000 over X period of time.
RP: You havemaintained high faction for such a long time thatyou're considered a "made man" with that Faction. They love you as much as crooks possibly can. You're Sam "Ace" Rothstein in the Chicago Outfitfrom the film Casino.Or George Jung under Pablo Escobar's protection from Blow. They've made so much money with you that they don't even want you catching a cold! Andif you did sneeze a dozen kleenex are handed your way.
Under this system, you would reap the same benefits as you would under the Clout system. As I wrote earlier,the Factionalternative is a pre-existing system that might be an easier load on the programming. /shrug
In general, I'm a "sick" playerwho wants to playmy character as close to that smooth ideal of a "Teflon Smuggler" as possible. (TEFLON= Temp Enemy Flag Lowered On Neutrals)
Nahh, just kidding. Seriously, I CRAVE PvP against Bounty Hunters, but I see a time when I might get bored with the PvP side of this possible future and try to just be sooo slick that the authorities don't even know I exist. That is a worthy challenge!
Let's face it, in a real sense, an Infamous/ High Visibilty Smuggler is the one who was unlucky, incompetent, or has a death wish. I know it's a game but... it is a Role Playing game
There, that's it. Lemme have it y'all !
RESPECT
Ternque01 wrote:
How about this idea to resolve public sale on illegal contraband?
Remove illegal items from the public bazaar and normal player vendors. In their place put a special public bazaar in major city cantinas and special player vendors in player city cantinas/casinos. These would sell sliced gear and spices.
Also institue a rise in smuggler Infamy for slicing or trading spices in public. The exception would be in cantinas and other "shady" areas.
Don't ban public sale of illegal items, just drag it to where it belongs.
Overall, I do see implementing this ideas to be a pain in the butt, and I think the player base has alot of "time sinks" as it is. I think I might have to back up not implementing them. However, it would be nice that when aplayer goes to a cantina for a dance or music that they can pick up "a few essentials", lol.
Hmm. I have no realobjections on this. It is mearly moving the activity to its proper places, not trying to restrict altogether. In fact, I truely like this proposal. Those wanting to sell ther slicing skill would not have to shout since those that need the service would be in the same room. It would add to cantinas usefullness too.
Message Edited by silversaber on 06-24-2004 03:50 PM
Wonderful, lets not only make sliced weapons unappealing to most of the players, but also reduce/eliminate the markets where we can sell them. Wow, that will help the Smugglers economically. Yea.
My response:
This would in NO WAY eliminate the sliced weapon market it might reduce it but I HIGHLY doubt it. All it would accomplish is that sliced weapons would not be available on legitimate vendors- as they should not be. Example: You can go to K-Mart and buy a gun because it is legal to own a gun- but you cannot go to K-Mart and by a silencer (kinda like a power up, no? ) because silencers are illegal.
This has been discussed positively by the community on these forums for a while now. PERSONALLY I DISAGREE WITH NOT ALLOWING CONTRABRAND TO BE SOLD ON VENDORS AT ALL (HAVING BLACK MARKET VENDORS/NPCs IN CANTINAS OR THE LIKE IS THE ANSWER TO ME) but some smugglers felt we should only be able to deal these things hand to hand so that is why I asked the question in the manner that I did.
You gotta start READING my posts before you spout off about my nuts saber.
That said-
Ternque's idea is awesome. Gaining Infamy for slicing and spicing in public is THE solution if something like this was ever to be put in.
Like I said, this wasn't my idea- people have been talking about this on these forums for a while. I just asked because this thread is about contrabrand and that aspect had not been discussed.