Smuggler Archive
Thread: Smugglers and Pistols? Who wrote this Rule Book?
DarthKthuolhu
Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:49 pm
#14
Orcajum wrote:
DarthKthuolhu wrote:
Not quite sure how it would ruin templates...
And in truth we're not really spending all that "less" skill points. As I mentioned, most of us are probably already investing in the Ranged Support tree on Marksman, just because we get that from Combat Experience, and its not a prerequisite for Smuggler. So why not just make all of Marksman required.
I mean seriously, what do Smugglers use the Unarmed skills for? I sure as heck don't use them, they're worthless to me and I never understood the point in skilling them up in the first place to get Smuggler.
Now if Smuggler included some sort of "fist fighting" specials in with the Dirty Fighting tree then that would make Unarmed more useful to a Smuggler.
Not familiar with the popular Triple-Master template, are you? M.Smuggler/M.Pistoleer/TKM.
As it currently stands, one can achieve this template with 3 points left over. If you changed the Unarmed prereq to something else, this template then becomes impossible. And, by changing the PreReqs to Master Marksman (instead of Unarmed 4) you have net loss of 19 available skill points. The current pre-reqs (pistol4 & unarmed4) total 58 Skill points. Master Marksman requires 77 skill points. Almost anyone who has a template wich includes a melee profession would have to sacrifice some aspect of their template to accomodate Master Marksman.
And many people do agree with you that, because we invest 29 points in the Unarmed line, Smuggler should have some Unarmed skills or benefits similar to our Pistol skills. Like someone said above, however, you can't really change the requirements, only eliminate requirement. And as our requirements are only two trees, we'd be too unbalanced by eliminating one. The only workable solution would be as GreenMarine had suggested, developing a way where any ONE Ranged and ONE Melee tree were requirements, thus giving Smugglers more variety.
Yes I am very familiar with the Master Triple Template and I think it is over powered... I think TKM should be dumbed down.
Corsican_Ogre
Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:18 pm
#15
Smugglers use pistols and unarmed because pistols are small and easy to hide and unarmed you dont need to even have a weapon. As for Han Solo watch the films again He kills 2 Imperials and beats up a thrid with unarmed moves.
Cloudchasing
Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:50 pm
#16
DarthKthuolhu wrote:
Oh and by the way, I was basing my math on the AllakHazam Character Builder... which after logging into the game tonight I noticed is wrong.
But I still do not like the idea of Unarmed being required for Smuggler, when Smuggler's have no use for the skills.
As I said, I don't use mine and I can play just fine without them... I don't have to be Super TKM to do what I want to do.
and also said
Yes I am very familiar with the Master Triple Template and I think it is over powered... I think TKM should be dumbed down.
OK, here's my problem. You obviously don't like TK, thats fine. However, you're being EXTREMELY insulting to about 1/3 ore more of the smugglers out there. If you don't think that UA has a place in the smuggler template, thats fine, but please, stay away from Mine. Also, please understand that TK isn't the end all be all that you must think it is, because you obviously haven't played the class, and obviously don't understand it. My Smuggler is TK, yes, He is Master Smuggler First tho, and will be nothing but. Please don't try to explain thru backward logic how SOE should change the smuggler Pre-Reqs so that YOU can better fit your desired template into the available SP. Please work your template INTO the SP and use some strategy when picking. oh, and by the way. TKM SUCK in PvE. we do one damage type and only hit AP1, however, my template is setup to Tank, and Tank I can. So please, before you think that TKM should be dumbed down, please understand that TKM is basically only effective in PvP against Jedi, as the standard kiting pistoleer will own us if they stay out of range
atytula
Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:35 pm
#17
Pistols is more a smuggler weapon then any other, mainly because it can be concealed. You don't see criminals walking down the street with AK-47s. They tend to carry smaller, hidable weapons. The smuggler is the same way. The less the enemy knows about how armed he is, the better chances he has in succeeding.
Mcgreag
Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:48 am
#18
The way I hope for it to be after the revamp is one line in marksman (any line) and one line in brawler (any line). And of course make it so that all smuggler specials work with all types of weapons.
I know GreenMarine did say that this kind of req was a possibility but it was never explored any further
I know GreenMarine did say that this kind of req was a possibility but it was never explored any further
Jaguarrr
Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:08 am
#19
I hope for the dynamic prereqs aswell. I still think about what combo I would do then... so hard to decide...
And there other very concealable weapons out there, knifes are. Even a super concealable rifle... the spraystick.
dimmu-borgir
Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:21 am
#20
maxtheusher wrote:
Another idea put forward before was that the dirty fighting specials applied regardless of what weapon you were using, much like point blank area 1, overcharge shot, warning shot etc, and that we should move up the ranged support tree instead...
slight problem with this. If a rifleman could use low blow and last ditch, that would be just plain wrong, one of rifleman's major disadvantages is that it cannot knockdown, however, with low blow, rifleman could easily turn into a kd/dizzy machine, and well, the last thing rifleman needs is an attack with a larger damage modifier, personally, with your average t21, you would be doing roughly 3.5k per hit BEFORE factoring armor peircing.
kovusreturn
Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:40 am
#21
I figured Smugglers refer to Pistols because:
1. It's easier to hide
2. Smugglers are one of the very few classes who refer to style... and Pistols ARE stylish 
3. It's harder to come by a fake persmission for larger weapons like a rocket launcher - just in case the empire asks
Kells
Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:56 am
#22
That's me. Master Smuggler/Master Pistoleer/Medic 4/4/4/0.
DarthKthuolhu wrote:
I got to thinking about tsomething while reading some of the other threads here.
We, as Smuggler's have to go through Pistols in Marksman to get to Novice Smuggler; and then there is the Dirty Fighting skill tree. But just who was it that wrote the rule book which states that all Smuggler's must conform to pistols?
Is it because we all saw Han Solo shooting off his Pistol, so we all assume that all Smugglers will want to use Pistols?
It has stated to become my opinion that Smugglers are also Marksman. They should not have to stick to any one kind of weapon, though the pistol of course the easiest to hide or conceal, or holster (if we ever get those) but I am also guessing that a Smuggler will fight back with just about what ever gun they can get their hands on.
So this is just a suggestion, and I know it will get flamed.. but I was thinking what if it were changed so that Master Marksman were required to obtain Novice Smuggler. Drop the Unarmed line in Brawler since Unarmed doesn't do anything for our Smuggler skills... require Master Marksman and grant the Smuggler the chance to pick and chose his/her own gun of choice whether it be Rifle, Pistol or Carbine.
Then add more skills for each of these weapons to the Dirty Fighting tree, to make these weapons more useful to a Smuggler.
I mean this makes sense. Smuggler's are Marksman, they do, do a lot of shooting to get themselves out of a jam. Granted this can be argued as close range shooting but I am sure Smugglers may find themselves in all sorts of situations. What if they have to deliver their goods to a destination on a planet and as they get closer to that destination, they find a group of pirates waiting. Are they going to charge in guns blazing? Some might. Or are they going to prefer to "snipe" from a distance, clean out the path, make their drop and collect the payment, then move on.
There can be any number of reasons a Smuggler would want to use something other then a Pistol.
So why make Pistols the exclusive gun of choice for them?
Give them Master Marksman to acquire before getting Novice Smuggler, add more special skills for each of the ranged guns to the Dirty Fighting tree... As we work on Pistols in Marksman anyway, we end up doing Ranged Support as well because that goes up with just general combat Experience so why not also work up Rifles and Carbines... and make Master Marksman a requirment?
Ok here is the math.
Take the Unarmed Tree away from the requirement to acquire Smuggler.
This gives us an extra 29 points.
With these points used in Unarmed; we have 81 points left to spend after Mastering Smuggler.
Now take those points out of Unarmed, take Unarmed out of the Picture.
Add Master Marksman as a requirment to acquire Smuggler... then after Master Smuggler we will have 110 points left to spend.
Thats more then what we have now.
Master Smuggler/Pistols IV/Unarmed IV = 169 points spent + 81 unspent points left.
Master Smuggler/Master Marksman = 140 points spent + 29 points extra; add to the 81 unspent points = 110 unspent points.
110 unspent points to invest in any other profession we chose. We can spend those 29 back in Unarmed and still go Master TKA if we so desire.
We can go Master on any of the Ranged Weapons... Rifles, Pistols, or Carbines.. and have "specials" for all of these included in the Dirty Fighting tree; and still have a number of points left over to through into some side skills.. branch into Medic some for example. How many Smugglers out there probably have had to administer their own medical treatment when they're running from the law. They don't want to be caught in some Hospital by some local City Patrol Guard or an Imperial, especially if they have contraband they're smuggling.
So; flame away if this is a bad idea. It's just something I started thinking about, that I thought made more sense then having Unarmed IV as a requirment for Smuggler when the Brawler skills seem to have no bearing on the Smuggler Profession at all.
Guamarhea
Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:07 am
#23
DarthKthuolhu wrote:
So; flame away if this is a bad idea. It's just something I started thinking about, that I thought made more sense then having Unarmed IV as a requirment for Smuggler when the Brawler skills seem to have no bearing on the Smuggler Profession at all.
Here is my thoughts (for what they're worth) on the logic behind Pistols and Unarmed IV:
Smugglers by nature are a secretive bunch who need the ability to move quickly at a moment's notice while attracting little if any attention. Most of their business dealings are with clients who are shady at best, and outright theives many times. They have an acute need to defend themselves in the close-quarters style meetings which occur in cantinas, back alleys, and back rooms around the Galaxy.
Unarmed IV makes sense because a fistfight is the most basic of all fighting styles. When all else fails, a Smuggler can rely on his hands to fight his way out of a sour situation. Pistols makes sense for two reasosns: 1) it is a close quarters weapon which requires little skill touse effectively(in close quarters) AND 2) it is very easy to conceal when compared to other ranged weapons (such as carbines and rifles) whichinflict similar damage.
I know these reasons aren't necessarily borne out by the game mechanics, but as a starting point forthe concept I believe them to be accurate. In essence, the reasoning for Pistols and Unarmed IV is more a part of the backstory than anything else. I other words, the Devs wanted to assign us skills that would make sense fora Smuggler to use, even if they didn't figure out a way to carry theirlogic into the game coding.
That is what I think anyway 
SpinningCloud
Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:11 am
#24
Darth,
However I don't like the idea of carbine and rifles being required. I'm Master Pistoleer, and while I think the Unarmed requirement is a waste of skill points for me I'd think the same of carbine and rifles branches...Why would I swap out my DE-10 for a low level carbine? Ever?
JWing
Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:11 am
#25
fishbrains wrote:
CorellianCowboy wrote:
And make it even easier for pistol/bh/smug dabblers?
Doubtful.
/agree
/agree as well
But those of us (myself included) would love to really be a Master of pistols. the BH pistol line evades me atm, and if I could stay Master Smuggler - Master Pistoleer
and BH Pistols, I'd be one happy Rogue...
Jandel-Har
Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:26 am
#26
Honestly i think pistols fit smuggler, they are easier to conceal than a big honkin rifle and can be whipped out quicker when a situation goes bad. Not that that ever really happens in SWG but *shrugs*