Smuggler Archive
Thread: A Thought About Our Entertainer Friends
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riotcontrol
Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:55 pm
#14
Oh, an update: Inspiration buff system is now on TC, but they will not respond to any issues anyone raised because it's all part of some 'bigger picture' that's probably great and wonderful, but they can't tell us anything about it yet, presumably because it's too great and too wonderful so we might spontaneously explode in a great puff of wonderfulness.
Or something.
Or something.
Ramsey_Lanclo
Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:02 pm
#15
/partially agree
I like that it's a passive thing... However, they (the devs) have said they're working on pulling the recursive macros that allow buffbots - They will be going away. And I see that as a wonderful thing.
However, while I loathe buffbots (yes, I've used them - Sorry) - I don't like the idea of having to manually interact to get the buff... When I go to the local bar in RL, I don't have to join the band to hear the music, if you catch my drift.
Buffbots-Bad
Passive Entertaining/Buffs (for the listener)-Good
IMHO
I like that it's a passive thing... However, they (the devs) have said they're working on pulling the recursive macros that allow buffbots - They will be going away. And I see that as a wonderful thing.
However, while I loathe buffbots (yes, I've used them - Sorry) - I don't like the idea of having to manually interact to get the buff... When I go to the local bar in RL, I don't have to join the band to hear the music, if you catch my drift.
Buffbots-Bad
Passive Entertaining/Buffs (for the listener)-Good
IMHO
Ternque01
Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:27 pm
#16
Ramsey_Lanclo wrote:
/partially agree
I like that it's a passive thing... However, they (the devs) have said they're working on pulling the recursive macros that allow buffbots - They will be going away. And I see that as a wonderful thing.
However, while I loathe buffbots (yes, I've used them - Sorry) - I don't like the idea of having to manually interact to get the buff... When I go to the local bar in RL, I don't have to join the band to hear the music, if you catch my drift.
Buffbots-Bad
Passive Entertaining/Buffs (for the listener)-Good
IMHO
This is how I feel. I was never aware that this would actually INCREASE the buffbot usage, but it would be strongly needed for SOE to address the issue.
Nicolas_Frost
Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:22 am
#17
Essentially, to straighten things out, this system, will encourage buffbots because the entertainer no longer needs to even "direct thier performance" to you or join your group as they did in the past. That's a little too passive. Its the literal equivilent of stepping into the general area of a doctor, clicking on him, and getting a full buff while the doctor just stands there doing nothing.
Now, if they do actually plan to remove recursive macros, or macros entirely, then this isn't a bad thing, but I currently don't see that happening.
Hopefully, they're just testing the functionality of the Inspiration buff right now, and after verifying that it in actuality works, will impliment the removal of recursive macros, or possibly a system for entertainment in which requires activity on the entertainer's part.
To me, the ideal system would be first, having to direct the performance; second, some sort of small interface which can't be controled through macros, meaning while the entertainer ques up flourishes, they need to essentially click a yes/no prompt(to keep entertaining) which doesn't always ask the same question, and doesn't always list the answers in the same order or location(swaping yes and no buttons, moving both from bottom to top, to the sides, spliting them up, etcetera). Now, I'm not saying the entertainer would need to do this every few seconds, but not few and far-between either. Perhaps, every seventy seconds, with ten seconds to reply. There would also need to be a minimum length for the buff application, say, 210 seconds(3.5 minutes).
That idea right there doesn't sound extremely difficult to impliment, while quite possibly choking out most AFK entertainers.
Whatever happens, I sincerely hope it works out for the best. I hate seeing a profession delegated into what is essentially an NPC role.
Now, if they do actually plan to remove recursive macros, or macros entirely, then this isn't a bad thing, but I currently don't see that happening.
Hopefully, they're just testing the functionality of the Inspiration buff right now, and after verifying that it in actuality works, will impliment the removal of recursive macros, or possibly a system for entertainment in which requires activity on the entertainer's part.
To me, the ideal system would be first, having to direct the performance; second, some sort of small interface which can't be controled through macros, meaning while the entertainer ques up flourishes, they need to essentially click a yes/no prompt(to keep entertaining) which doesn't always ask the same question, and doesn't always list the answers in the same order or location(swaping yes and no buttons, moving both from bottom to top, to the sides, spliting them up, etcetera). Now, I'm not saying the entertainer would need to do this every few seconds, but not few and far-between either. Perhaps, every seventy seconds, with ten seconds to reply. There would also need to be a minimum length for the buff application, say, 210 seconds(3.5 minutes).
That idea right there doesn't sound extremely difficult to impliment, while quite possibly choking out most AFK entertainers.
Whatever happens, I sincerely hope it works out for the best. I hate seeing a profession delegated into what is essentially an NPC role.
Kells
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:03 am
#18
/sign
Got to support the true entertainers, they add so much to the gaming experience.
Shrendyc
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:23 am
#19
For those that liken this to not having to "join the band to hear the music", sadly, the one thing that allows entertainers to charge people for money is now being given away.
How would you like it if someone just had to be within 50 meters of you to get their weapon sliced? Sounds silly, but that is exactly what this is.
How will entertainers make money now that their commodity is given away for free? Its been proven that you can't rely on people tipping.
Ramsey_Lanclo
Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:45 am
#20
Shrendyc wrote:For those that liken this to not having to "join the band to hear the music", sadly, the one thing that allows entertainers to charge people for money is now being given away.How would you like it if someone just had to be within 50 meters of you to get their weapon sliced? Sounds silly, but that is exactly what this is.How will entertainers make money now that their commodity is given away for free? Its been proven that you can't rely on people tipping.
Okay... you have a very good point there. Hadn't thought of that one.
SwenLaransa
Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:55 am
#21
Shrendyc wrote:How will entertainers make money now that their commodity is given away for free? Its been proven that you can't rely on people tipping.
As a smuggler one thing I've found deeply effective is putting the names of deadbeats in my bio. It's amazing how fast they change their tune and cough up. No guild likes to have it known that it's members are beggers and deadbeats. Apply political preasure. Refuse to perform when they're around and make sure everyone in the area knows why. In a game filled with the 1337, roleplaying still does have an effect.
Of course an afker can't notice these kinds of things, but we don't care about them anyways.
The other thing you can do is not care. Sure some people will download your mp3 rather than buying your cd, the evil pirates that they are. But as long as enough do, what's the matter? Entertainers don't have any costs per performance, so it's not like they're taking from you. Once they pay off their instruments/clothes/bioenhancements/cas/cybernectic leuku of seduction +5/whatever, it's all gravy.
Do what you do because you enjoy it, not becase you profit from it. The moment something becomes a job is the moment it loses a large part of its appeal and enjoyment. Trust that there are good people out there who will tip, not because they have to but because it's the right thing to do. The dark side has not yet fully won the day.
riotcontrol
Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:20 am
#22
SwenLaransa wrote:Entertainers don't have any costs per performance, so it's not like they're taking from you. Once they pay off their instruments/clothes/bioenhancements/cas/cybernectic leuku of seduction +5/whatever, it's all gravy.
It is not, simply because it takes time to do what you do, and, if in that time, you could be doing delivery missions and earning more money than the /tips you get, well... it's not really gravy, is it?
SwenLaransa
Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:05 am
#23
riotcontrol wrote:
SwenLaransa wrote:Entertainers don't have any costs per performance, so it's not like they're taking from you. Once they pay off their instruments/clothes/bioenhancements/cas/cybernectic leuku of seduction +5/whatever, it's all gravy.
It is not, simply because it takes time to do what you do, and, if in that time, you could be doing delivery missions and earning more money than the /tips you get, well... it's not really gravy, is it?
You aren't losing anything. Because you could be getting more doing something else doesn't mean you've lost what you might have got. It *is* all gravy.
I slice a weapon, I've used a clamp, part of a knife, and a WUK. I have incured a loss for doing what I do. I go hunting a blow an AT-ST to bitty bits with my rocket launcher. It is consumable and I have encured a direct loss for doing what I do. I sit in a cantina and tell stories about my exploits and I have lost nothing.
I *could* have sold ten million credits worth of faction bases. I *could* been up in my dunelizard spawn camping and got a black sun helmet. I *could* have been teaching krayts the literal meaning of 'to burn in hell' and looting them for pearls. I *could* have been running 10k per shot missions (mutters about solo group nerf). I could've done any of these things and I would have made a lot more than kicking back telling stories.
But that doesn't mean I've lost anything. Any tips I get doing what I enjoy doing is plain and simple a bonus.
Could'ves and maybes don't count for squat. You can argue that my time is valueble, and that's valid. But it's all still subjective. Myself, I put enjoyment higher than wealth. I'd rather be broke and happy than rich and miserable. Idealy I'd be rich and happy but I don't live in an ideal world. If you're doing what you enjoy and it doesn't cost you anything, and that's real cost, anything you get doing it is gravy.
SugarWhite
Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:59 pm
#24
Nicolas_Frost/Jaecob, I thank you for thinking of entertainers. It warmed my heart that Smugglers are looking out for other professions.
I have one master smuggler on Sunrunner, and one nearly-mastered Smuggler on Naritus. I have mastered dance on five, yes, FIVE (5) servers. Before it's all said and done, I hope to have a master Smuggler on Bria as well. One might say I have a certain affinity for half-completed (or less) professions within this game.
My favorite template has been the one I have on my main server, Sunrunner, where I have Master Smuggler, Master Pistoleer, and Dance 0040. It is quite satisfying to do cartwheels after completing the corvette. Because a few buttheads stacked their professions in ways that made them invulnerable, that template will now be impossible. I, a Smuggler and pistoleer who has NEVER been accused of being Uber in any way, get to pay because of the sins of the melee class, and mathematically, it seemsit willSTILL be possible to master fencer, swordsman and TK after the revamp.
I dropped Master Dancer on Sunrunner down to 0040 because of the treatment I received as a dancer. It was perfectly okay, it seemed, for people to request that I drop everything, fly to Dantooine, then for a cost of more than 1,500 credits one-way because ships were not yet in-game, and buff some nimnodfor a measly 1,000 credits. Thus, I would be out 2,000 credits for my round-trip, not to mention the irritation. Yes, it's easy enough to add that guy to my list of people who need a well-aimed low blow on a daily basis, but the list grew to unmanagable proportions. You wouldn't BELIEVE how many times I'm asked to do private dances, or other activities, or just subjected to comments that very few people would make to a female toon who was a master swordswoman or something.
Entertainers NEED a way to choose who they offer their services to. Like someone else in this thread said, you would not much care for it if you were on an honor system for slicing, where anyone who came within 50 meters of you could get a weapon sliced.Frankly, I think if the devs had their mothers and girlfriends playing much in this type of environment right now,we'd see a few more changes. You wouldn'twant to even THINK your mother had heard some of the things I've had to listen to in my time dancing. How would you like some guy coming up to your mom and telling her that he would like tosexually assaulther? Is that REALLY acceptable behaviour? Shouldn't I, or your mom, or even the librarian up the street be able to /deny that guy for all time, or at least choose to never serve him again in addition to /addignore? Because the system doesn't work that way now, and it won't work that way under the proposed system. The /deny only works until you log out again, and you can't /deny someone until he's near you again. Wouldn't it be a better system if you had to actually ask a dancer to /setperform on you for 60 seconds, and s/he could say, tip me 2k and I'll /setperform?
I took up dance on another server at the same time as I dropped it on my main server in order to be a Smuggler. Dance is a quirky thing that I enjoy doing -- for about an hour or so at a time. It's goofy, yes. But I enjoy it. I'm watching a bunch of pixels dance around and make flashing lights, which is no better or worse than watching my pixels off a Tusken or sell faction points. I continued to make other dancers when I just wanted to see what other servers were like. Certain servers have simply WONDERFUL players who made the horrible time of grinding outa dancer in those wretched, spam-ridden cantinas go a lot faster. Scylla and Eclipse are two such servers. Other servers have such a combat-only orientation, that it was hard to get people to watch me as a novice, because they would always head for the nearest Twi'lek buffbot in hopes of getting the fastest healing and going back out to battle.
There NEEDS to be some way for all entertainers to make the same wages that any other master elite profession can make -- or even HALF of what any other master elite profession can make. Whoever stated in this thread that dancers have no real costs was wrong. Accaragm is VITAL for most entertainers to be able to buff. Have you checked Accaragm prices on many galaxies? I can tell you that I have on the FIVE galaxies I've mastered dance on. On each of them, it generally costs at or above 125,000 credits per crate. That's not cheap for someone who MIGHT pull in two or three 5k to 10k tips in a night. And honestly, if we girly-dancer-types enjoy clothes so much that we would spend all of our start-up costs on them, what in the world makes you think that at some point, we're going to say, "Oh, that's it, I have enough clothes and never need to buy another pair of shoes (or five)." Do your mothers or girlfriends (or pets) operate that way, that they get to a certain point and never have any desire for a new dress IRL? I sincerely doubt it.
And why should entertainers not be entitled to the same baubles that combatants can earn through quests? Those items cost credits, because the devs, in their infinite wisdom, have ensured that all quests that give ACTUAL rewards must be fought out. I've worked my butt off to do the quests on each of my Entertaining servers, and let me assure you, the only rewards we get are a few credits and a new danceor song -- no new decorations for our homes or ships. If dancers and musicians cannot afford to buy neat items, they are left out in the cold. I'd love to hear your rationale for why an entire class should be available to you for your healing and buffingneeds 24/7, and yet not be entitled to any perks or monetary compensation. Something tells me it will resemble the same sorts of arguments for slavery one heard from areas like Mississippi during the era leading up to the U.S. Civil War.
I know I am starting to ramble. In conclusion, thank you all for at least considering the needs of entertainers in this galaxy.Entertainers are just as deserving of money and respect and control of the benefits they have to offer as members of any other class.
Xoreshear
Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:48 pm
#25
Just thought I'd say to the OP,
Thanks Nic, your attitude and habitsin regards to entertainers are appreciated. This is from a player that has had two master dancers all built via ATK play.
Message Edited by Xoreshear on 04-08-2005 01:50 AM
Eaca
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:28 am
#26
SwenLaransa wrote:
Shrendyc wrote:
How will entertainers make money now that their commodity is given away for free? Its been proven that you can't rely on people tipping.
As a smuggler one thing I've found deeply effective is putting the names of deadbeats in my bio. It's amazing how fast they change their tune and cough up. No guild likes to have it known that it's members are beggers and deadbeats. Apply political preasure. Refuse to perform when they're around and make sure everyone in the area knows why. In a game filled with the 1337, roleplaying still does have an effect.
Not too bad an idea, unfortunately the bio can only be so long. It's far more effective for entertainers to mention those who DO tip...
Of course an afker can't notice these kinds of things, but we don't care about them anyways.
The other thing you can do is not care. Sure some people will download your mp3 rather than buying your cd, the evil pirates that they are. But as long as enough do, what's the matter? Entertainers don't have any costs per performance, so it's not like they're taking from you. Once they pay off their instruments/clothes/bioenhancements/cas/cybernectic leuku of seduction +5/whatever, it's all gravy.
And how in the heck are we supposed to get the money to buy the instruments/clothes/bioenhancements/cas/cybernectic leuku of seduction +5/whatever in the first place? Doing 1k entertainer missions? Lets not talk about risk vs reward here, because I've done combat too. I can "risk" a 15k buff, about 5k worth of brandy, and 10k worth of weapon/armor wear and tear and pull in 1.5mil every time. Maybe the CU will change that, we still have to see. I also love how you assume that since we chose entertainer we have no aspirations for things like houses, cantinas, or the means to decorate them with the finer things of the game. It seems a common preception that we should be happy animating and chattingaway in NPC cantinas in whatever gifts are given to us while "The Big Boys" get all the good stuff. Dancer only costs 15SP less than smuggler, yet what is the relative earning potential difference? Well let me put it this way, I had a doctor alt that I converted to smuggler so I could actually make money. Yes, I know you guys can't smuggle, and without some pistol mods your grind is a big pain in the **ahem** (I did that grind too). Spice isn't that great either these days when it's so overshadowed by chef foods. But at least you guys still can make a good buck.
On the plus side you all do have a fairly good idea of your coming revamp. Not only does it look fairly promising, you've actually had quite a bit of dev feedback on some of your questions. Interactive slicing, actual smuggling content, and hopefully a spice boost (since it will likely be much more rare post revamp than it is now that it's mass producable... they BETTER boost it's effect to make it worth the risk and cost to keep it profitable for you all). All we got so far is confirmation that the new buff was in no way supposed to benefit us, AFK won't be going away any time soon, and the best they're going to do is try to make live performances "better" than AFK ones...
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