Smuggler Archive
Thread: Skill Points Change Proposal
That allows a Master Smuggler to take on a Master Elite profession and that Elite's subprofession.
Huh? What do you mean by this?
And as for the self-sufficiency...you might be able to argue that BHs are self-sufficient. But commandos are not nor are squad leaders. Combat medics might be able to be self-sufficient if they DoT and heal, but that's iffy. Finally, bio-engineers are far from self-sufficient (they are a hybred, check the docs).
About smuggler not being a primary profession...why not? Because we don't have a high damage output? We are meant to be a crowd control prof. There may be issues with our abilities in this dept, but it's getting better. So no, you can't play a smug as a primary and be a nuker, but play it as a crowd control and it works as a primary prof.
(And about the balance, when you say that the SP needs to be adjusted, you are bringing up balancing issues.)
BailorJayssek wrote:
Our combat abilities have little to no meaningful effect when needed, other than allowing US to escape (which I DO NOT consider a combat ability).
I don't know about you but I'm VERY effective in combat and my guild loves when I come along. We can take on much bigger and harder groups of mobs because I can mez the other mobs while they concentrate on 1 and I keep them alive a lot longer by keeping everything else from attacking. When I'm not mezzing I'm applying states while they do the "nuking". We are not meant to be able to solo most things, we are a support profession.
Brutus_TOD wrote:
That is because we are a hybrid profession, not an elite one. In fact, before CU we had it best among the other Hybrid professions. BH's needed to MASTER Marksman and so did Commando. We had it made in the shade with the only Triple Master Combo (TKM/MSmuggler/MPistoleer).
Message Edited by Brutus_TOD on 08-05-2005 02:46 AM
BailorJayssek wrote:This is in regard to the number of skill points occupied by the full Master Smuggler loadout.PROBLEM:Getting smuggler requires TWO trees as prerequisites, AND they are in separate categories. That means we've expended 15 (novice brawler) + 15 (novice marksman) + 14 (pistols tree) + 14 (unarmed tree) for a total of 58 points BEFORE we can even spend the points to get our namesake. That sortof expenditure for a profession that is largely unusable at this point is unacceptable. So, this does one of two things:1) It pigeonholes us. If we want to explore another profession, we're limited in what we can choose if we want Master level in it--hmm, pistoleer or TKM? Smugglers are NOT a powerful combat class by ANY stretch of the imagination. Our abilities that are considered "crowd control" are really just "escape hatch" abilities. "Most Effective Retreater" isn't on ANY military medals I've heard of.So to be able to even HELP loot our slicing components, we're FORCED to take on another combat class (or just do without). And if we want ANY extra points for supplementary skills, we'd better pick Pistols or TKM, because any other profession will likely munch down our skill points before we could snag that Master box. If smuggler were powerful and popular (also read: Bounty Hunter), I could understand limiting our ability to cross-specialize too much. However, it is neither.2) It limits our ability to enjoy functionality while retaining our profession (because enjoying functionality IN our profession is nearly impossible at this point). Other professions can achieve two elite masters and one basic master. I, as a Smuggler/Weaponsmith, can't seem to get enough points to add Master Artisan, Marksman, OR Brawler--whichare based off of profession prerequisites ANYWAY, and at least ONE of them should be completely reasonable.Some professions require that the player be forced to make one their PRIMARY, which would limit the basic Master skill they would choose. No one "bounty hunts" in their spare time, so forcing that to take front seat isn't a problem. Smuggler, however, being "less than smugglish" shouldn't have the same constraint. I should be able to be an Artisan/Weaponsmith that occasionally works as a smuggler to move my (sometimes sliced) weaponry.SOLUTION:Find somewhere to knock off, say, 5 skill points. That would allow a Smuggler the chance to be Master Smuggler, Master (insert Profession with a one-tree pre-req), and Master (insert Brawler, Marskman, or lead-in tothe secondaryProfession).This gives Smugglers just a BIT more flexibility to be effective in another area (which could even take our mind off the revamp) to account for the fact that our profession as-is just doesn't cut it for the number of prerequisites.
Wow. Empassioned, and reasoned. Unfortunatley I believe flawed.
1. We are not pigeon holed. We have enough points to pick up any elite mastery we want in addition to our Master smuggler. Or to pick up and hybrid master that uses either ranged or unarmed as one of it's pre-requisits. For example I have a Master Smuggler / Master Combat Medic.
2. While our profession does not meet the expectations we had, because we are all ardent Star wars fans and have shrines to Han solo at the heads of our beds, it IS functional. Alone we have the ability to play the exact role that a rouge should which is to escape and live another day. In a group we DO have the ability to manage the crowd so that our other group members whose job it is to deal damage, can do so without interferance.
3. No one that I know has a tripple mastery. That was part of what CU was about. A double Elite/Hybrid mastery gives you the 80 combat levels which are the maximum. There was careful balancing of skill points to ensure that this would work for all combinations, and I hate to rain on your parade, but it worked.
4. You're right - unarmed is pointless in that it remains undeveloped. It's not wrong for the character, but it should have been worked better. Make Underworld require unarmed xp (make slicing require slicing xp and delinquincy require spice xp while we're at it) for example. You could argue that feign death was an unarmed skill, and justify it that way. Even better, make the pre-req Artisan-Merchant, that would make even more sense to me. Still done is done, and it doesn't effect balance.
As for the 'I want 5 more SP', this just seems like your gripe that you cant get the "ultimate temp" you want and SOE should let you because you want to. Get over it, realise it wont help you by posting on the forums, and either pick a different temp or learn to deal. The rest of us have and because of this enjoy the game very much.
Take your straw man argument elsewhere. I'm not someone whining because I can't be uberR!!!1!! or anything of the sort. So to attempt to talk down to me on that basis is a complete mistake, because you're answering a question that wasn't asked.
No profession is perfect. Derf. That doesn't need to be pointed out. You have done NOTHING to address the point that Smuggler has no benefit that warrants the Hybrid Tax. That is the purpose of the thread. The "five points" thing was just a proposal for compromise, since it would allow the sort of triple mastery for any number of profession combinations (not just my chosen profs), but would simply leave NO extra skill points for anything else.
Ideally, if nothing will be ADDED for smugglers, the Hybrid Tax should just be removed. That would be a fair trade (though it would do nothing to make Smuggler more smugglish) by providing more flexibility. There are some fun and useful abilities in the Smuggler profession, just none that warrant the 15 point cost of a hybrid profession.
So, take a break, grab a snack, and come back to address that issue. I'm sure this time you could do it without unnecessarily talking down to someone for something they didn't even say.
And as for this tax, it has been addressed. It follows cannon, give is the smug feel, and builds on the get away idea (gah, caught w/o a weapon, hit him, knock him down (leg sweep), whip out pistol, concuss, run!). Also, I feel that +250 def is a NICE reason to pick up a bit of unarmed. Moreover, you can kill stuff w/o a weapon equipped, so unlike a pure-combat prof, you dont always need a weapon equipped.
Spec-Ops wrote:
well.. squad leaders arent really gods of combat themselves either..
I agree that they aren't gods of combat but what other professions most powerful attack puts themselves in more danger like us. (Reckless Shot)
Actually, reckless shot has NOTHING to do with getting away. It does boosted damage and makes us vulnerable. It applies no states of any kind to the target. You should also revisit what you call "whining," unless by branding ANYONE with different ideasa 'whiner' is just your way of declaring yourself better/winner.
I think it's safe to say that since Smugglers cannot SMUGGLE, that whether or not it is "canon" is largely irrelevant. If you don't have a weapon equipped, and you lack the foresight to put a weapon on your hotbar, too bad. We ALREADY get a knockdown attack from the pistol tree. If someone WANTS the extra melee speed/accuracy/defense, let them choose it. But why force smugglers to prereq in unarmed when it is not used in the profession?
Bounty Hunter requires marksman and scout because you USE both as ESSENTIAL parts of the profession. Combat Medic requires marksman and medic because you USE both as ESSENTIAL parts of the profession. See the idea here?
Unarmed combat is NOT an essential part of the profession--especially since the ENTIRE profession is based on fighting with a pistol ANYWAY. So why require marksman AND brawler? I personally agree that the Business tree under Artisan would make more sense than that, the way things currently are. Smuggler has no place requiring both marksman and brawler, regardless of how much "sense" it might make. The profession is just not strong enough (not COMBAT strength, but CONTENT strength) to warrant dual-profession prereqs.
I am not saying the "hybrid tax" itself should exist. It is very good for certain professions that either 1) should be regulated in the scope of their other abilities (ie, Bounty Hunter, with so much power and money-making ability on its own--plus the best loot any profession's missions offer) or 2) should be 'strongly encouraged' to pair with certain other groups of professions (ie, Squad Leader, which should be something attached to a ranged fighter, like a military squad leader, or a ranger, like a wilderness guide such a squad might hire). I'm simply saying that Smuggler does not fall in that category.
When I've got a buddy who's a Master Pistoleer/Master Architect/Master Artisan, it makes me take a look. He is stronger in combat than I am, being Master of a combat profession. Yet he is STILL able to be a Master in both an ELITE profession and its PREREQ profession. Best of both worlds for him, best of neither for me. I could understand if Smuggler were powerful and involving as a profession--you give up the ability to multitask in order to have that kind of profession (which is why I think Bounty Hunter should still require Master Marksman). But I can't compete with Master Pistoleer in any aspect of combat (except my ability to RUN from it), and yet he can STILL school me in the crafting department. Where's the balance there?
Someone should be able to be Smuggler/Pistoleer/Marksman or Smuggler/Medic/Doctor or Smuggler/Artisan/Shipwright. At least give us the flexibility to better ROLEPLAY being a Smuggler (by giving us access to skills that would benefit the playing of a smuggler) if you're not going to give us any game content whatsoever.
Again, may I remind, Entertainers were given a skill point "assistance" when it comes to mastering Image Designer/Musician/Dancer. So, this is not an unprecedented request. They took content away from the profession (by eliminating Battle Fatigue), and so they repayed them with flexibility. Well, Smuggler has been deprived of content from the beginning, and then our slices were nerfed AND all our XP converted to Pistols... abit more flexibility is not a tall order.