Smuggler Archive
Thread: Revamp Discussion: Contraband & Smuggling Missions
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
ruehs wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
JTGAlpha wrote:
Yes, but they're not supposed to have this stuff this easily anyway. It's SUPPOSED to be hard. It's supposed to be illadvised to carry illegal weapons and large quantities of drugs through an airport. We exist to provide those services because they ARE illegal and illegal is what we do. But if there's no punishment for having them then what's the point of them being illegal, hence what's the point of having us? They can't have their cake and eat it too. Not anymore. They're going to have to just live with it. I CAN have this attitude because I've been at their beck and call since launch with little in the way of Smuggling to go with it. I've sucked it up this long. It's their turn. My money is just as good as theirs. I want my profession to MEAN something and that's going to mean things have to be ILLEGAL else why would you need a SMUGGLER for it in the first place? If you think I'm just going to go, "Oh, poor players are inconvenienced at Starports," and go back to being a slice/spice (what spice?haha) whore, you're out of your mind. That's not fair either. No one says that they'll get caught all the time. Or that they'll get scanned all the time. Or that they won't EVER be able to take their stuff through the starport. Like I said, they're more than welcome to roll the dice and take their chances.
If you make the game hard / annoying / frustrating enough,people willstop playing.
Cries for nerfs are happening in a lot of forums. Same sentiment everywhere- "we've had it bad for a long time now so nerf everyone else so WE can be more UBER!". If everyone's buffnerfs everyone else... /sigh
I fail to comprehend why seemingly intelligent people can't strive for a win-win instead of a win-lose (that, in a game, turns into a lose-lose every time)...
Oh, no a little challenge. What you don't think people play games for challenges? Most people play to be challenged. Oh and nerfs have always been around, in all MMO's, not just this one. You don't think people who played EverQuest and DAoC never cried nerf do you. You really need to research before trying to post meaningful posts.
You might want to do a little of your own research. There are graphs where you can see the response of MMOG players to nerfs in their games... by reduced login counts followed by reduced subscription counts. So yeah, nerfs have been around in MMOG's for a long time now. And their effects should be reasonably well known. Just because EQ and DAOC and AC did it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do... or maybe you really do think we should have static spawns that drop uber items but spawn only once a day per server, or a crafting system that enables you to produce one reasonably good item in the amount of time it takes someone else to loot 50 better ones.
Yes, sometimes nerfs are necessary (especially so with SWG's combat system). And challenge is fine.
But frustration is not a good thing for a game.
It's a fine line to walk. I hope for SWG's sakethis isn't stepping too far over that line.
I'm pretty sure you are one of the minorities on this revamp. I don't know what you want in the revamp you have not stated it, but most of us in this thread really enjoy it. Even the bounty hunters are looking forward to it. So it is not just adding content for us but for them also. Oh, and frustration is not a good thing in life, if you don't get something your way, get over it. there are other things to do in this game.
If people are just going to find a way around it, GM can stop right there because there is no reason to even have a revamp. The point of the revamp is to give smugglers something desirable to smuggle. The ONLY 2 ways to do that is to (1) give smugglers viable products that only they can attain (through smuggling) but that do not have consequences for use/possession; or (2) FORCE people to use smuggled items, and then FORCE them to use smugglers to transport them. If you do anything else, there is NO benefit to smugglers out of the system. Not everyone is battle capable of running the gammut.
As both you and everyone else has admitted, many people are currently getting buffed up and running through checkpoints. As long as people continue doing that, you are not fixing anything with the revamp. People will continue running through checkpoints, and smugglers will STILL have nothing to do. As has been pointed out, small amounts of gods can be hidden in droid compartments, or you can simply GROUP with a smuggler to pass the checkpoints (no item swappage needed-just pay up).
So lets consider the opposite... Make the checkpoints so violating that no one except a smuggler can pass through them. Then you have the opposite effect. That will be so freaking annoying to players that players will only rarely use illegal goods, and smugglers will STILL have nothing to do. If it's too hard or too frequent then they can turn it down so that people with little to lose are less likely to care. It's only if you have a LOT to lose that it matters.
What you are posting is a circular mess. "People won't be inconvenienced because they can run through the checkpoints" and "if people are they annoyed they simply won't carry sliced items/spices." Unfortunately for you, NEITHER of those things fix smuggler, and actually hurt the profession. I always get a kick out of smugglers who say "fix us" out of the same mouth that is saying "fine don't use our services and preserve our worthlessness." Because not everyone WILL give up their precious spices and slices. That's why. PvP'ers for instance would rather eat rocks than give up a numerical edge. That's just how they are. If I make their weapon better, they'll still carry it. They'll just need me to get them through the check point or have to run the risk of going it themselves.
Now if you re-read what I posted, you will see I advocate the following:
(1) Spices and other items (like really good powerups or maybe skill tapes) are acquired through NPC smuggling activities. The greatness of the item is directly proportional to the skill level of the smuggler (as in the better the smuggler the more the "boss" will trust the person with). All of these items are HIGHLY desirable to players. The smuggler has the choice to complete their NPC mission, or to sell these highly desirable items to PC players for a LOT more money, but roll the dice with the bounty hunters. That's not any different than what GM said. What's new?
(2) Slicing, Spices, and items acquired from smugglers have little or no contraband properties. This keeps them desirable to players, so them will want to pay smugglers top dollar for the items (without being hassled). Since only smugglers can acquire these items, it makes no sense to keep penalize players for buying them from smugglers. Uhhh then why are they illegal? What's the point of them being illegal except as flavor text?
(3) Substantially increase contraband scans and power of the troopers near star ports (NOTE: Slicing, Spices, and items acquired from smugglers have little or no contraband properties).
DON'T FREAK OUT YET...I'M NOT DONE.
Create a brand new class of "highly illegal" items, that people will get scanned and killed for possessing if they try to planet hop with them.Smugglers are near required to move these items. These are NOT items that will bug and annoy players every single time they play (like guns and armor), but rarer items that make sense. Examples include: Yikes....heard this before. Didn't make sense then either. So the back bone of illegal items is no longer illegal? Because it might cause an inconvenience? I don't buy it.
Rebel Installation Deedslike turrets, bases, etc.
Guild Hall deeds (Empire doesn't like competing factions or groups)
No offense but how many people go walking around with all those deeds? And since we're talking about a handful of deeds why would you EVER need a smuggler when one droid could hold your whole cache?
Experimental Components and Items made with experimental components - Create a new class of items that smugglers can "acquire" through NPC smuggler missions. Example: Droid Storage Module that holds 30 items. Example: Movable battle field turret. These items would be highly illegal, and the items made with them would be highly illegal. (See the beauty of this...it doesn't kill smugglers slicing/spice market, but creates a new class of items that are more powerful and more illegal).This I haveless problem with, but I still think it's stupid that people are so damned dependent on sliced weaponry and spices that they can't just let us transport them. I mean how is this NOT going to inconvenience people? They STILL need us to move this stuff. They STILL need us often, and WORSE...you've just made the entire system of what is contraband and what is not REALLY complicated.
The basic jist of this is that (1) the current nature of the Smuggler as a player in the market economy would be increased (through selling slices and items "acquired" through NPC smuggling missions; (2) there are SOME (NOTE: not every single night) instances where smugglers are REQUIRED to move certain items between planets. You get you cake, you eat it too, and other players aren't annoyed.
So what do you have to say to that?
I'd say that between the ease of grouping with a smuggler or buying a droid with a compartment for smaller loads that I don't see a this being that big a deal. I don't understand how replacing one kind of good on the contraband list with another is solving the whole "I don't want to inconvenience the populace." Because honestly, if they need us to move ANYTHING they're going to be inconvenienced, and going to cry nerf. Under your system I'm just a slice spice monkey again, because most of the things you're talking about are either things that are so rare as no one will ever need me, or so pervasive it'll never fly. I like GM's version better. Sorry. After all, spices and slices are illegal. It says so on the package when you buy them. I don't see what's so terrible about making that a reality.
JTGAlpha wrote:
Now if you re-read what I posted, you will see I advocate the following:
(1) Spices and other items (like really good powerups or maybe skill tapes) are acquired through NPC smuggling activities. The greatness of the item is directly proportional to the skill level of the smuggler (as in the better the smuggler the more the "boss" will trust the person with). All of these items are HIGHLY desirable to players. The smuggler has the choice to complete their NPC mission, or to sell these highly desirable items to PC players for a LOT more money, but roll the dice with the bounty hunters. That's not any different than what GM said. What's new?
(2) Slicing, Spices, and items acquired from smugglers have little or no contraband properties. This keeps them desirable to players, so them will want to pay smugglers top dollar for the items (without being hassled). Since only smugglers can acquire these items, it makes no sense to keep penalize players for buying them from smugglers. Uhhh then why are they illegal? What's the point of them being illegal except as flavor text?
(3) Substantially increase contraband scans and power of the troopers near star ports (NOTE: Slicing, Spices, and items acquired from smugglers have little or no contraband properties).
DON'T FREAK OUT YET...I'M NOT DONE.
Create a brand new class of "highly illegal" items, that people will get scanned and killed for possessing if they try to planet hop with them.Smugglers are near required to move these items. These are NOT items that will bug and annoy players every single time they play (like guns and armor), but rarer items that make sense. Examples include: Yikes....heard this before. Didn't make sense then either. So the back bone of illegal items is no longer illegal? Because it might cause an inconvenience? I don't buy it.
Rebel Installation Deedslike turrets, bases, etc.
Guild Hall deeds (Empire doesn't like competing factions or groups)
No offense but how many people go walking around with all those deeds? And since we're talking about a handful of deeds why would you EVER need a smuggler when one droid could hold your whole cache?
Experimental Components and Items made with experimental components - Create a new class of items that smugglers can "acquire" through NPC smuggler missions. Example: Droid Storage Module that holds 30 items. Example: Movable battle field turret. These items would be highly illegal, and the items made with them would be highly illegal. (See the beauty of this...it doesn't kill smugglers slicing/spice market, but creates a new class of items that are more powerful and more illegal).This I haveless problem with, but I still think it's stupid that people are so damned dependent on sliced weaponry and spices that they can't just let us transport them. I mean how is this NOT going to inconvenience people? They STILL need us to move this stuff. They STILL need us often, and WORSE...you've just made the entire system of what is contraband and what is not REALLY complicated.
The basic jist of this is that (1) the current nature of the Smuggler as a player in the market economy would be increased (through selling slices and items "acquired" through NPC smuggling missions; (2) there are SOME (NOTE: not every single night) instances where smugglers are REQUIRED to move certain items between planets. You get you cake, you eat it too, and other players aren't annoyed.
So what do you have to say to that?
I'd say that between the ease of grouping with a smuggler or buying a droid with a compartment for smaller loads that I don't see a this being that big a deal. I don't understand how replacing one kind of good on the contraband list with another is solving the whole "I don't want to inconvenience the populace." Because honestly, if they need us to move ANYTHING they're going to be inconvenienced, and going to cry nerf. Under your system I'm just a slice spice monkey again, because most of the things you're talking about are either things that are so rare as no one will ever need me, or so pervasive it'll never fly. I like GM's version better. Sorry. After all, spices and slices are illegal. It says so on the package when you buy them. I don't see what's so terrible about making that a reality.
Here is the difference:
What you are advocating (GM's plan) is 3 classes of items:
(1) Somewhat illegal (you get attacked): Nothing in this as of yet that I saw
(2) Moderately illegal (you get attacked and then later attacked by BH): Spices, slices, etc.
(3) Highly illegal (only smugglers can transport): Smuggler mission items, etc.
What I am saying is that no one is EVER going to hire a smuggler just to move a sliced gun or a spice through a star port. They will either (1) gun though, or (2) not carry it at all. It this circumstance, smugglers CAN'T be slice and spice jockeys, and WON'T be smugglers either. Annoying services = no one will use them. Annoying = paying for services, and then paying again each time you want to planet hop after moving those services.
I am advocating a different 2 tiered approach:
(0) Not illegal: Skill tapes, cool furniture, cool clothing,and items like that what smugglers can choose to sell. These can ONLY be acquired through smuggling, and the buyer incurs no penalties for possession (the penalty is to the smuggler who acquires the item).
(1) Somewhat illegal: Current contraband items. Spices, slices, etc. No BH terminals, the person just gets a TEF just like they do now. There is no reason to further inconvience players for smuggler products. EXACTLY THE SAME AS NOW.
(2) Highly illegal: You seem intent on arguing with anything I say, so I will leave it to you to fill this out. However it DOES NOT include sliced guns and armor, or spices.
The important difference is that there is no forced PvP, and no further inconvenience for buy a smuggler's wares. According to your logic (that people will want to use smugglers to avoid the checks) people should be using smugglers to avoid those checks as we speak.....how many times have you been hired to smuggle guns and spices lately? Huh? Never?
I rest.
You defeat your own point here.. you suggest we use the current system for normal Illegal Items, that has already gotten us nothing, we (and the rest of the playerbase) literally have absolutely nothing to lose in switching to a different system likethe one GM has suggested.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
The important difference is that there is no forced PvP, and no further inconvenience for buy a smuggler's wares. According to your logic (that people will want to use smugglers to avoid the checks) people should be using smugglers to avoid those checks as we speak.....how many times have you been hired to smuggle guns and spices lately? Huh? Never?
I rest.
What I am saying is that no one is EVER going to hire a smuggler just to move a sliced gun or a spice through a star port. They will either (1) gun though, or (2) not carry it at all. It this circumstance, smugglers CAN'T be slice and spice jockeys, and WON'T be smugglers either. Annoying services = no one will use them. Annoying = paying for services, and then paying again each time you want to planet hop after moving those services.
I am advocating a different 2 tiered approach:
(0) Not illegal: Skill tapes, cool furniture, cool clothing,and items like that what smugglers can choose to sell. These can ONLY be acquired through smuggling, and the buyer incurs no penalties for possession (the penalty is to the smuggler who acquires the item).
(1) Somewhat illegal: Current contraband items. Spices, slices, etc. No BH terminals, the person just gets a TEF just like they do now. There is no reason to further inconvience players for smuggler products. EXACTLY THE SAME AS NOW. That's why we get paid to remove them if it gets too hot. And it's not like the BH will drop from the ceiling as soon as they get caught. Forgive me but I really DIDN'T know this was the problem. People will have ample time to have us adjust their visibillity. It's not like Bounty Hunters are going to be lined up at the Starport. In this instance the same inconveniences exist except for your "forced" PvP which isn't forced at all. We can help them avoid it, either by escorting them or slicing for them. Either way it's money for us and it's not exactly instantaneous.
(2) Highly illegal: You seem intent on arguing with anything I say, so I will leave it to you to fill this out. However it DOES NOT include sliced guns and armor, or spices. Again, what's the difference? People are STILL going to be inconvenienced and "forced" to PvP. Just possibly less of them.
The important difference is that there is no forced PvP, yes there is, just people with whatever items you want to add to the "highly" illegal list. and no further inconvenience for buy a smuggler's wares.There WILL be inconvencience though. They'll be attacked at the starport if they're caught by NPC's. But I dont' believe that inconvenience is too great. According to your logic (that people will want to use smugglers to avoid the checks) people should be using smugglers to avoid those checks as we speak.....how many times have you been hired to smuggle guns and spices lately? Huh? Never?
I rest.
The bottom line here is you can't make things illegal and with penalites without inconveniencing the player population. They're going to have to give stuff up, pay me to move it, or simply take their chances. No matter WHAT you make illegal this is going to be so, unless you make the consequences so small that no one cares, like we have now.
PS. I NEVER rest. 
Message Edited by JTGAlpha on 06-16-2004 07:39 PM
Jhovial wrote:
I 5 stared but I also must say JTGAlpha hit the nail on the head. Your proposed system does nothing but maintain the status quoe. If that was what we ended up with then truely GM should just walk away and put his energy on other projects. We are looking for a revamp. Not a bone.
Will it inconvience some? Yep. But no more so then, getting buffs, shopping for armor, shopping for weapons, finding a weaponsmith to make your akley stun baton, etc etc. We are asking to provide a service. You are asking not to be "inconvienced" while at the same time reaping great rewards from us being your personal slaves.
If you are going to provide me a service, shouldn't it be a service that I want? Forcing me to jump through a ten minute series of hoops each time I want to planet hop is not a service...that is my point.
If you don't like what I put in the "Highly Illegal" category, fine...suggest something else. I do not mean to suggest my idea as the be all, end all.
What I do suggest is that you are freaking crazy if you think that anyone is going to have their items sliced and then pay you again to help them plant hop 5 times a night. That will not provide you with any opportunity to provide any services (even slicing because people will stop using sliced items), and will destroy the status quo.
What I am saying is that you need something besides weapons, armor, and spices to smuggle. I proposed alternative ideas, you didn't even think about then and didn't even try to come up with an alternative.
The point, is that you need something big that players will occassionally need you to transport for them, but NOT every single time they want to travel. Ideas? Or are you confined to "Nuh uh!"?
Various criminal organizations throughout the galaxy have found financial success in moving illegal substances and goods from one place to another. The vehicles of these transfers are the smugglers, men and women who store their morality along side coffers full of questionable goods. The smugglers are brave and often brash individuals who risk their lives for monetary gain on a daily basis.
The smuggler revamp will introduce new missions to simulate the smuggling underworld.
Basic System
Smuggling Missions are received from various underworld bosses, called ‘suppliers’. Jabba, Lady Valarian, and other key criminal characters, as well as new characters, will offer smuggling missions. Smuggling missions are only offered to smuggler characters. The difficulty of the mission will scale to the average tier level of the smuggler’s skills.
The Smugglers Missions should be a requirement of the profession. To do this, there should be a new xp type called simply, "smuggling xp". Smuggling xp could be required to move up the Underworld tree... it makes perfect sense. The more smuggling missions you do, the more contacts that you make, the higher you go in the Underworld. Using pistol xp to gain underworld knowledge just doesn't equate.
Also, Underworld I missions should only involed "banned" items, while Underworld III and IV missions should involve Highly Illegal items. Once again, this makes more sense because as a newbie smuggler Jabba would not entrust his most precious cargos to you. After you are established in the underworld, it should be easier to get higher paying missions and better cargos.
Just my 2 credits...
>>I am advocating a different 2 tiered approach:<<
What is wrong with the 3 tiered approach? You are proposing lesser punishments, why? So you can easily use illegal goods? Note we are smugglers, if we wanted to deal in legal goods, we would have been a crafter. If someone wants to use our goods, not only should we be in danger of suffering consequences, but so should those using our products. Not everyone should WANT to use our goods. They are illegal after all.
>>(1) Somewhat illegal (you get attacked): Nothing in this as of yet that I saw<<
I think he already stated, minor spices and such.
>>(2) Moderately illegal (you get attacked and then later attacked by BH): Spices, slices, etc.<<
CURRENT SLICED WEAPONS. We havent even gotten to slicing yet, but all that has been stated is that current sliced will be a moderate. It is unknown if future slicing will be able to increase and decrease where the legality falls.
>>(3) Highly illegal (only smugglers can transport): Smuggler mission items, etc.<<
Possible slices, possible high end spices etc.
Your current suggestions do nothing to enchance the class besides throwing it a bone. Im sorry to be so bold but it is obvious that you want to use the best armor and weapons at no risk to yourself or no inconvience. The ddevs stated that it is illegal to use these things. Should there not be reprocussions? Further your lessoning of the legality of items gives us less reason to be around. I just dont know how else to put it, other then if it is too much of a inconvience for you, dont use them. I think the majority of the playerbase however will if they are implemented with enough reward.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
*snip*
If you are going to provide me a service, shouldn't it be a service that I want? Forcing me to jump through a ten minute series of hoops each time I want to planet hop is not a service...that is my point.
*snip*