Smuggler Archive
Thread: The death of immersion: casual gamers
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Taln2
Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:56 pm
#1
This continuning trend of cop outs to the casual gamerisseriously makingme sick of the MMORPG industry. Not that I have anything against casual gamers, mind you, because (technically speaking) I myself am a casual gamer, but sooner or later someone has to realize that continually giving in to the need to fulfill the whims of the casual gamerdestroys immersion (and on a side note it begs the question of whether the term "casual gamer" actually applies to the playerbase the term is meant for, or just a think-tank to provide an excuse for development ineptitude).
In my previous MMORPG experiencethere was a feeling of gain and loss. Whena game's gameplay is so affectivethat itinvokes that kind of emotion, THAT is immersion. Ihaven't felt that way in SWG since about August of 2003, when I mastered smuggler, and as time goes with this radical development ongoing, Itend to believe I never will again.
It's a sad realization that I present here:immersion is going completely out the window and being replaced with accessability. While that's not a bad concept on paper, the stark reality is that they're flushing the fun factor down the drain. What's worse isthat it's not just SOEeither: MMORPGs lately are turning into a field of craptacular games that, no matter how fun they are in all aspect, lack any degree of depth and therefore lack longevity. Post-SWG and post-WoW, I think my long standing MMORPG addiction may have (finally!) been broken.
Admittingly, the market of casual gamers have spurred the industry to eliminate timesinks and speed up gameplay. Both of whichare good and necessary changes to these games.I do not, however, think this line of thought should encroach upon risk versus reward at all. That is just going too far, and is nothing but harmful to the integrity of the game itself.
Hey SOE, and other developers, I know you probably don't care buthere's one gamer's 0.02 - even if I only have a few hours to play each night, I'll take along and challenginggame over an quick and easy game any day of the week.
And you can start byleavingthe breakingin.
Oblox2
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:13 am
#2
Whilst i agree wholeheartadly you have to make it accessible to all to make it viable.
Even a mild sense of roleplaying will help the game but many players come for the PVP scene straight from Counter strike and dont care about some "carebear RPers". As long as PVP rules the game you wont get the immersion you long for.
In terms of accesssibility lets look at history.
- Started at European launch had to walk or shuttle everywhere, no player cities.
- Creature mounts introduced (pub 6 was it?) made things a bit more speedy getting about. Player cities began to spring up but not have shuttles yet.
- Speeders introduced, fast travel, shuttles in player cities made getting around alot faster.
- Shuttle time reduced to 5 minutes from 10.
- JTL launched, instant travel between starports, starport times down to 60 seconds.
- Shuttles reduced to 60 seconds.
Much with RL the pace of life in SWG has shot through the roof, no longer do people amble 9k across the dantooine countryside to reach the crystal caves (yes i did this) its instant travel speeders are too slow, sod mounts, sod hyperspace. They have had to enforce space travel to kashyyyk and enforce mounts only in alot of kashyyyk because people are too lazy to not pull a swoop and hit the instant travel button.
And now entertainers, noone generally hangs out in cantinas anymore because they dont have to, at events people get restless unless there is something to kill, people complain of being bored unless PVPing or new content is introduced but when it is they go straight for a guide on the forums complete it get the "phat lewt" sell it then go back of complaining of boredom.
Weve been spoiled and now the new players are being sold on this instant accessibility. It will never change.
Even a mild sense of roleplaying will help the game but many players come for the PVP scene straight from Counter strike and dont care about some "carebear RPers". As long as PVP rules the game you wont get the immersion you long for.
In terms of accesssibility lets look at history.
- Started at European launch had to walk or shuttle everywhere, no player cities.
- Creature mounts introduced (pub 6 was it?) made things a bit more speedy getting about. Player cities began to spring up but not have shuttles yet.
- Speeders introduced, fast travel, shuttles in player cities made getting around alot faster.
- Shuttle time reduced to 5 minutes from 10.
- JTL launched, instant travel between starports, starport times down to 60 seconds.
- Shuttles reduced to 60 seconds.
Much with RL the pace of life in SWG has shot through the roof, no longer do people amble 9k across the dantooine countryside to reach the crystal caves (yes i did this) its instant travel speeders are too slow, sod mounts, sod hyperspace. They have had to enforce space travel to kashyyyk and enforce mounts only in alot of kashyyyk because people are too lazy to not pull a swoop and hit the instant travel button.
And now entertainers, noone generally hangs out in cantinas anymore because they dont have to, at events people get restless unless there is something to kill, people complain of being bored unless PVPing or new content is introduced but when it is they go straight for a guide on the forums complete it get the "phat lewt" sell it then go back of complaining of boredom.
Weve been spoiled and now the new players are being sold on this instant accessibility. It will never change.
DARTHBAYLOR
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:17 am
#3
Unfortunately this is the politically correct , dont wanna upset the care bears world we live in , I mean , at my kids school sports day , they no longer have competitive races , just activities that all can take part in and rejoice in the taking part , I for one dont agree with this but its the world that is bein created , the next generation will have no idea of win or lose , gain or loss , or what its like to earn something.
For me work circumstance and family mean I can only play an hour or so a night , or only once a week whenI work away , I would dearly love to play more , peeps go on about bein able to master stuff real quick ingame , but I dont have that much time ingame , as you can see , an I dont wanna spend all of it grindin , as a consequence im only on my second elite mastery , am not a millionare , but hey , do I love this game/world/community , and boy have I worked for every skill and cred I own.
/salutes fellow players.
djlowballer
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:20 am
#4
thats the american way,
and just remember, the only other empire who put their hand over their hearts was rome:
SO my american friends, we can llok forward to massive orgies and vomiteriums
and just remember, the only other empire who put their hand over their hearts was rome:
SO my american friends, we can llok forward to massive orgies and vomiteriums
Oblox2
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:23 am
#5
djlowballer wrote:
thats the american way,
and just remember, the only other empire who put their hand over their hearts was rome:
SO my american friends, we can llok forward to massive orgies and vomiteriums
Eddie izzard for the win.
djlowballer
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:25 am
#6
Oblox2 wrote:
djlowballer wrote:
thats the american way,
and just remember, the only other empire who put their hand over their hearts was rome:
SO my american friends, we can llok forward to massive orgies and vomiteriums
Eddie izzard for the win.
thank god im not the only one who has seen him
djlowballer
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:36 am
#8
does he have many shows, I have only seen the one where he talks about action transvestites and such
Oblox2
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:42 am
#9
djlowballer wrote:
does he have many shows, I have only seen the one where he talks about action transvestites and such
Unrepeatable
Definite article
Live at the ambassadors (not easy to get)
Dressed to kill
Glorious
Sexie
Circle
Taln2
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:44 am
#10
Oblox2 wrote:
Even a mild sense of roleplaying will help the game but many players come for the PVP scene straight from Counter strike and dont care about some "carebear RPers". As long as PVP rules the game you wont get the immersion you long for.
While you made good points in your thread, I have to strongly disagree with this one strongly.
Most anyone who played would tell you that pre-Trammel Ultima Online and pre-"PvP Lite" Asheron's Call were about the best PvP games ever, and both had the benefit of the PvP adding to the immersion. There weren't any "PvP safe zones" in either of those games (arguably UO cities were "safe" since most people wouldn't risk an attack by guards unless they were planning to exploit), except for the"safe zones"that you and your buddies/guild created and then were tasked with upholding.
And just what were Trammel and PvP Lite? They were concessions to the casual gamers who felt the unconsentual PvP was a barrier to gameplay. They had a point, since towns would be camped and oftentimes leaving towns would result in instant death plus complete corpse looting. However, what the playersfailed to realized while complaining is that the methods they used to circumvent these deadly scenarios, whichusually involved grouping, which in turn usually had an immersive tone (such as paying a mercenary to protect the traveler from evil brigands).
The point is, ifgamers - casual or not -are givena TRUEopen ended environment, they'll make the best of it.
SWG wanted to be an open environment, but instead the developers implemented artifical controls and regulations which dominate the way we, as players, experience the game through gameplay. One such example of a control is covert status for factions. A good idea on paper, because it enables a PvE-centric Galactic Civil War. However, the actual in game implementation is not that thrilling. An overt imperial player can bear witness to a combatant rebel player slaughtering dozens of stormtroopers without any ability to interfere and stop the massacre, effectively mocking his role in the GCW.In the original system, the combatant would've gotten a TEF, allowing interference from the overt imperial, but again, a concession to casual gamers would see this removed. That change saw the introduction of a PvE GCW, but at the cost of the rebel's feeling of risk for attacking stormtroopersAND the imperial's inability to act against a player. Effectively, both sides lose - and for what?
At any rate, don't judge what PvP can bring to immersion by SWG alone. The fact is thatPvP is a very, very good roleplay generator, even if it does attract a less roleplay-savvy crowd. In fact, that's one of the best and most accessable ways to create roleplayers.
Ternque01
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:47 am
#11
DARTHBAYLOR wrote:
Unfortunately this is the politically correct , dont wanna upset the care bears world we live in , I mean , at my kids school sports day , they no longer have competitive races , just activities that all can take part in and rejoice in the taking part , I for one dont agree with this but its the world that is bein created , the next generation will have no idea of win or lose , gain or loss , or what its like to earn something.
I once heard a very wise man say that competition is nothing more than mutual self destruction. He is right.
Competition, to me, is a lower form of experiencing something. If you follow the mentality of competing to its conclusion, I think it ends up being exactly what that wise man said. I don't go to the movies I enjoy, eat the foods I love, or play the games I do to compete. I can't even imagine competing with someone else in my effort to enjoy a movie more. Competition even seems silly if you think of applying it to things you'd never though of before. You could host a teeth brushing competition. You could stage a breathing competition. Woooo! I'd like to see that one, but the truth is that you could host one based on breathing speed or volume or volume of air displaced over a time period.
Aikido is a martial way (like an art) that focuses on blending and moving in harmony with an attacker. It is the exact opposite of competing. In Aikido, you can neutralize attackers much bigger and faster than you. They hold no competitions in Aikido, because at its core it is a system of nurturing peace and love, and the mere fact that it can actually accomplish this in physical practice is a testament to the strength that centering on cultivating peace and love possesses. You learn how to make a balanced connection to someone else who is trying to beat the crap outta you. The most amazing things happen when you do this. An attacker's body will do all of the work necessary to neutralize themselves.
When I PvP, the joy I get is more from making a connection to another player and experiencing it than "winning" or "beating them". I would like to think I have more respect for my fellow players than to treat them like a loser if I kill them.
When I square off with a player, it is to learn from them and have fun.
I'd also like to add my 2 credits about hardships. People like to claim that hardships bring rewards, but the easy path can be just as rewarding (if not a bit more enjoyable). For the record, I think that you can have challenges that do not include hardships. Hardships to me seem more like suffering and pain.
Oblox2
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:49 am
#12
Taln2 wrote:
Oblox2 wrote:Even a mild sense of roleplaying will help the game but many players come for the PVP scene straight from Counter strike and dont care about some "carebear RPers". As long as PVP rules the game you wont get the immersion you long for.
While you made good points in your thread, I have to strongly disagree with this one strongly.Most anyone who played would tell you that pre-Trammel Ultima Online and pre-"PvP Lite" Asheron's Call were about the best PvP games ever, and both had the benefit of the PvP adding to the immersion. There weren't any "PvP safe zones" in either of those games (arguably UO cities were "safe" since most people wouldn't risk an attack by guards unless they were planning to exploit), except for the "safe zones" that you and your buddies/guild created and then were tasked with upholding.And just what were Trammel and PvP Lite? They were concessions to the casual gamers who felt the unconsentual PvP was a barrier to gameplay. They had a point, since towns would be camped and oftentimes leaving towns would result in instant death plus complete corpse looting. However, what the players failed to realized while complaining is that the methods they used to circumvent these deadly scenarios, which usually involved grouping, which in turn usually had an immersive tone (such as paying a mercenary to protect the traveler from evil brigands).The point is, if gamers - casual or not - are given a TRUE open ended environment, they'll make the best of it.SWG wanted to be an open environment, but instead the developers implemented artifical controls and regulations which dominate the way we, as players, experience the game through gameplay. One such example of a control is covert status for factions. A good idea on paper, because it enables a PvE-centric Galactic Civil War. However, the actual in game implementation is not that thrilling. An overt imperial player can bear witness to a combatant rebel player slaughtering dozens of stormtroopers without any ability to interfere and stop the massacre, effectively mocking his role in the GCW. In the original system, the combatant would've gotten a TEF, allowing interference from the overt imperial, but again, a concession to casual gamers would see this removed. That change saw the introduction of a PvE GCW, but at the cost of the rebel's feeling of risk for attacking stormtroopers AND the imperial's inability to act against a player. Effectively, both sides lose - and for what?At any rate, don't judge what PvP can bring to immersion by SWG alone. The fact is that PvP is a very, very good roleplay generator, even if it does attract a less roleplay-savvy crowd. In fact, that's one of the best and most accessable ways to create roleplayers.
You must have different groups on your server then. I like our PVPers but on the whole but it isnt roleplay when they fight, probably the only time ive ever had a decent RPed fight was under the old FRS when i went dark for a time and met one of my old allies now that was good fun, no button mashing no instant kill but a bit of a talk before and during and a damn good long duel.
djlowballer
Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:51 am
#13
but you see, it wasnt "fair" to have nonconsensual pvp. Despite the fact that in ultima murderes had serious consequences and could have their heads taken( real bounty hunting IMO). I loved pre trammel uo. I had a smith but no miner, so I camped with friends at good ore veins and slaughtered and robbed miners. It was a great risk reward system
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